[Belker]

Also, in general (of course there are exceptions, but they're called that for a reason) the less time character generation takes and the less customization there is in the generation system, the less likely the player will have any sort of attachment to the character and thus will not care if it dies. The prevailing thought becomes, "Oh, I died. Oh well, give me a couple minutes and I'll whip up two or three more."

Perhaps you feel this way. I submit that your assertion that this is a universal truth (with exceptions) is incorrect.

In my 35 years of playing RPGs, what has made characters memorable and cause their players to become attached to them isn't whatever widgets or chrome were attached to them in character generation: it's what happened to those characters in the game.

Having three pages of stats, advantages and disadvantages isn't necessary to create a backstory, nor to creating a memorable character.

[Patrick Goodman]

Didn't ignore it. Just noted that, in my decades of experience, it's the rule, not the exception. Your situation is completely backward to my experience over 33 years and hundreds of different players.

[Mirikon]

If the Priority system was an alternate chargen method, like in 4th edition, I wouldn't have a problem with it. As is, I will have to look over the book before I decide whether I will be playing until 6th Edition comes out.

[All4BigGuns]

The more customization that can be done in character generation, the more the player will feel that they have the character they really want to play. As a result, they will care more about that character then they will about one where they had less ability to customize to their specifications. And while stats and such aren't strictly necessary to create a back story, the back story should accurately reflect the capabilities of the character. This becomes more of a pain in the arse to accomplish as the amount of customization in character generation.

Heck, the Karma Generation system would probably demonstrate the "everything has a price" almost as well, only without cutting off nearly as many character concepts.

[Patrick Goodman]

And again, you're stating that as a universal rule that some of us just haven't found to be true.

Mirikon spoke earlier of near-infinite customization. That can be paralyzing, especially to new players. And it doesn't effectively address "paying the price." You don't have to like it, and I know better than to try and change your mind because you don't want to change it; you've demonstrated that on more than one occasion.

That said, though, I've been doing this for longer than you've been alive, All4, and I'm here to tell you that what you cast an inviolable universal truth is anything but that. I know I won't convince you, but that's okay.

[Carz]

Priorities were a logical fit for a game with a theme of "Everything Has a Price." What's important to you? Money? Stats? Skills? You gotta choose, pay the proverbial piper, with the priority system. I like that. Everything has a price in the game, including making your charavter.

Yeah, this is pretty much what I've been afraid of with the "Everything Has a Price" theme.

What I'm seeing/hearing is not that "Everything Has a Price" but that "Everything has two prices: what you pay or sacrifice to get it, and what ELSE you have to sacrifice to make that choice." Basically it looks like an extra cost has been added to "everything" in this edition.

Want cyber? Ok, then pay in cash and pay in essence. Oh, and now it limits your social pool in some way...

Want magic? Ok, well, now that priorities are back, you have much fewer choices in how you build out the character, and I'm STILL expecting to have to buy magic up from 1 to 6(ish) during creation, since I don't know you don't have to. (Buying magic was a GOOD change from 3rd ed, in my opinion).


Ironically, I think that Catalyst WILL be getting my money for the 5ed core book... so that I can tear it apart (figuratively), to use the better wording and maybe the better matrix (assuming it is) and add it to my 4th ed campaign. And then I probably won't buy more 5th ed products.

It really don’t sound like they built 5th ed ‘for me’. I don’t WANT double taxation on each improvement – I’m paying cash and or karma for it, I expect a benefit, not a benefit + drawback. I’d maybe be ok if there were an option for discount based on drawback, but that leads to more number-crunching than even I’m looking for.

But I’m also a person who is tired of playing D&D at anything under 10th level – I want the epic games, and I want die pools of 15+ dice at my SR table whether I GM or I’m playing.

Simplify things that are obviously difficult to use in a fun way. I’m hoping the matrix section lives up to the hype. Don’t reformat the whole drive and start over like 5th ed feels like.

The 4th ed Build point system was simply better at creating specialist characters compared to the 4th ed Karma version. The 4th ed Karma creation was better at creating more rounded, wider characters than the 4th ed Build point version.

I don’t know what the priorities system was (1st thru 4th) or will be (5th) better at doing, but the narrow vs wide character systems do need to be preserved, since they serve different game styles.

I think that catalyst likely did a better job with their playtesting than say WotC did for 4th ed D&D, and I think that SR5 will appeal to about half the SR players out there. But I don’t think it will appeal to all the current SR players, and I’m not sure how well it will draw new ones.

[Patrick Goodman]

At the local game store I frequent, I get asked -- a lot -- when SR5 is coming out. Many of these are people asking are new to SR, wanting to know because they see the fun we're having with our game. Some of them are new to RPGs in general.

I wait anxiously for the day when I can start doing SR5 demos in public.

[Warmachinez]

If we base ourselves on Shadowrun edition history, it has improved everytime from 1st to 4th. I have no doubt SR5 will continue the trend.

Hell, I GM two groups of SR players and no one has ever been this hyped for a new edition.

EDIT: 100 Post YAY!!!

[Mirikon]

Mirikon spoke earlier of near-infinite customization. That can be paralyzing, especially to new players. And it doesn't effectively address "paying the price." You don't have to like it, and I know better than to try and change your mind because you don't want to change it; you've demonstrated that on more than one occasion.

D&D 4th did an excellent job of cutting down on customization and making things accessible to new players. Of course, they alienated many of their old players because of that, myself included.

My first SR4 character was a combat mage, straight out of the book. As I learned how the system worked, I redesigned the character, and made it my own. My first Hero System character was made by me telling the DM the basics of what I wanted, and then we collaborated over email to do it. My first D&D character was a wizard that my DM helped me put together. In any system more complicated than an MMO like WoW, newbies will have to learn the system, likely being taught as they go by more experienced players. That's simply a given. The Shadowrun X-box game had almost no barriers to entry for new players.

If a player is paralyzed by choices, step in and help him, rather punish those who aren't.

[Parker]

Said it before, and I'll say it again.....

                          Wait until 5th Edition comes out and then either B/W/C on this board to your heart's content or buy the system and play in happiness. 
                                   Until then, will ya all just  !!!

[CanRay]

Said it before, and I'll say it again.....

                          Wait until 5th Edition comes out and then either B/W/C on this board to your heart's content or buy the system and play in happiness. 
                                   Until then, will ya all just  !!!

But but but...  SOMEONE'S WRONG ON THE INTERNET!!! 

[Neurosis]

Priorities were a logical fit for a game with a theme of "Everything Has a Price." What's important to you? Money? Stats? Skills? You gotta choose, pay the proverbial piper, with the priority system. I like that. Everything has a price in the game, including making your charavter.

Yeah, this is pretty much what I've been afraid of with the "Everything Has a Price" theme.

What I'm seeing/hearing is not that "Everything Has a Price" but that "Everything has two prices: what you pay or sacrifice to get it, and what ELSE you have to sacrifice to make that choice." Basically it looks like an extra cost has been added to "everything" in this edition.

Want cyber? Ok, then pay in cash and pay in essence. Oh, and now it limits your social pool in some way...

Want magic? Ok, well, now that priorities are back, you have much fewer choices in how you build out the character, and I'm STILL expecting to have to buy magic up from 1 to 6(ish) during creation, since I don't know you don't have to. (Buying magic was a GOOD change from 3rd ed, in my opinion).


Ironically, I think that Catalyst WILL be getting my money for the 5ed core book... so that I can tear it apart (figuratively), to use the better wording and maybe the better matrix (assuming it is) and add it to my 4th ed campaign. And then I probably won't buy more 5th ed products.

It really don’t sound like they built 5th ed ‘for me’. I don’t WANT double taxation on each improvement – I’m paying cash and or karma for it, I expect a benefit, not a benefit + drawback. I’d maybe be ok if there were an option for discount based on drawback, but that leads to more number-crunching than even I’m looking for.

But I’m also a person who is tired of playing D&D at anything under 10th level – I want the epic games, and I want die pools of 15+ dice at my SR table whether I GM or I’m playing.

Simplify things that are obviously difficult to use in a fun way. I’m hoping the matrix section lives up to the hype. Don’t reformat the whole drive and start over like 5th ed feels like.

The 4th ed Build point system was simply better at creating specialist characters compared to the 4th ed Karma version. The 4th ed Karma creation was better at creating more rounded, wider characters than the 4th ed Build point version.

I don’t know what the priorities system was (1st thru 4th) or will be (5th) better at doing, but the narrow vs wide character systems do need to be preserved, since they serve different game styles.

I think that catalyst likely did a better job with their playtesting than say WotC did for 4th ed D&D, and I think that SR5 will appeal to about half the SR players out there. But I don’t think it will appeal to all the current SR players, and I’m not sure how well it will draw new ones.

Carz:

Three things.

1) Try to avoid judging games before you play them. It's a short sight worse than judging a book by its cover. It's bad form. SR5 is like a million fragging pages long, and that's a million pages of drek you haven't read. You shouldn't already be deciding what to harvest and what to trash without seeing the book.
2) Keep in mind that Catalyst is not a monolithic, unilateral entity. This game was made by multiple people with conflicting and in some cases irreconcilable opinions about what is good game design.  This isn't Palladium Books, where Kevin Siembieda is writing, editing, arting, and layouting an entire book from start to finish with practically no outside influence. The design process for SR5 was a constant back and forth between Jason and numerous other designers who frequently disagreed with each other and Jason.
3) In light of point two, keep in mind the possibility that possibility that one or more of the people who worked on SR5 might agree with you about some of the things you're saying. The "They" that designed this game is not a hivemind.

[Dr. Meatgrinder]

But I’m also a person who is tired of playing D&D at anything under 10th level – I want the epic games, and I want die pools of 15+ dice at my SR table whether I GM or I’m playing.

That's kinda what I think when I hear the Line Developer say that we play SR wanting to "roll handfuls of d6s".  If I wanted to play "street level" or "realistic", I'd play real-life.  No, wait, I can go outside and play "street level".

I think that catalyst likely did a better job with their playtesting than say WotC did for 4th ed D&D, and I think that SR5 will appeal to about half the SR players out there. But I don’t think it will appeal to all the current SR players, and I’m not sure how well it will draw new ones.

I don't think it takes much to do more playtesting than WotC did for D&D4e.  LFR was their playtest group...as I found while playing LFR for about 1.5 years under 4e.

I think SR5 will draw some new players.  If what they've already said is true, the release schedule is tailored to bring new people into the game.  Like any new edition, SR5 might alienate some existing players and might bring back some players who were alienated by SR4.  I think that whether it grows the player base depends a fair amount on how successful it ends up being with drawing people who have never played it.

[Parker]

Even if 5th-Gen PO's a sizable chunk of the current fans, then they'll continue to play 4th or an earlier version.

Catalyst ain't WotC despite the wailings' from some of the Agony Aunt-types on here.  So even if 5th Edition ends up a joke and hemorrhages fans while not attracting any new fans to Shadowrun; that don't mean the setting is dead. 

[I_V_Saur]

I've seen both sides of the fence from personal experience.

I remember a friend saying "Let's play Shadowrun." And, as DnD 4th Ed had been released it was insanely hard to find a decent 3.5 game, so I went with it. I sat down with Core, and said "How do I shoot things?". I then spent forty five minutes trying to figure out how to fire a gun, not even knowing which section had guns. I'd seen the easy dozen ways to make a character, all of which with infinite customization possible, and nearly melted down. It must have taken me close to twelve hours, with coaching, to cobble my sheet together. It was a Technomancer who was missing quite a few things that would have made him more effective. The GM, another friend, had absolutely no clue how to run, and the game flunked out after two sessions, from pure frustration.

Shadowrun 20th Anniversary was cleaner than the original 4th Ed Core, and it still seemed, to us newbies, like an unbearable shoggoth of insanity.

I went back to it, somewhere around a year later, unable to get my RP fix. I went through Core, Unwired, Street Magic, Arsenal, This Old Drone, and Way of the Adept.

I fell in love with it. The fluff was a story unto itself, intense and immersive. The options just meant that every character was a new experience. The tools available to a GM were endless, it seemed. Karmagen, I haven't honestly tried, but it sounded like the numbers were just too bloated. Working with around a thousand points simply meant too much work for every sheet, and keeping track of it all?

BP, I could do. It was a nightmare at first, an unholy eldritch abomination, but I learned, and could soon balance those 400 BP in my head, make flavourful characters in an hour. Now, I'm down to about half. The BP system is weighted quite nicely.

The priority system? You're crippling yourself. Yes, if it was balanced, it would be perfect for new players, while staying accessible to the old crew. It'd take close to fifteen minutes for veterans to cobble together new concepts!

But it isn't.

The only way to create an effective character, is to focus on a single role. There is no way to have a Combat Mage that runs a chop-shop. It's very linear, and while it's good for making a single concept, it's too limiting. It takes away some of the best parts of SR's chargen, by forcing you to walk down a single path. It takes away from a lot of the flavour.

There has to be another way, because Priority hamstrings creativity.

The pure idea is great, Patrick. It really is. But it's just not ready, yet, to be the mainstay.

Also, the books need better organization. You have to hop fifty pages this way, and seventy that, just to know why this piece of gear is better than that one. It's bad enough in a book, but for pdfs?