[Mollari]

Hoi Chummers

Been a while and I've got two questions I'd like to ask.

Question 1: Does background counts (BC) reduce the hits of existing spells?

So I understand most of the BC stuff and read a lot of the commentary on this forum, but something I didn't get was how it affects existing spells. The BC reduces the force of adept powers, focus items and imposes a negative dice pool to casting. All these things I understand. Adept powers and focus items give +1 die per force. Makes sense. -1 force = -1 dice. BC of 3 means casting has a -3 on it's dice pool. cool.

Existing spells also have their force reduced. This partially makes sense. If you walk into a BC 3 with a force 4 spell (assuming you cast it in a neutral environment) then it's reduced to force 1. If it reduces to 0 then it fizzles. Cool.

However.

Does the reduction of force also reduce the hits? If a force 4 masking spell with 4 hits enters a BC 3 does it's hits reduce to 1? That's pretty harsh. This also means that if where your char lives has a native BC of 3 (Puyallup, New Territories etc.), you get penalised for casting spells inside a lodge. You have your lodge in a BC 3. Lodge is an aspected BC and you cast your spell. Immediately upon existing you loose 3 force and hits... harsh.

Question 2: How do you use wards in your game?

I can't find any reference to the prevalence of wards and their expected force. Do R&D labs have their entire floor warded? Are they all force >10 or are they sparse?

Ta guys. Looking forward to answers

[Reaver]

Generally speaking, No, you don't lose your hits on a sustained spell when you enter a BGC. But be aware of the limits of hits and Force on some spells. (Some are limit the hits to the Force.)

Also note that quickened spells do come back at the rate of 1(f)/hour after leaving a BGC. Sustained spells just end if reduced to 0 force. (and why sustain a spell that's doing nothing anyways?)

Wards come in various force levels.

WARD
(ANCHORED)
The ward is a basic ritual, taught to many magicians.
It creates a an astral barrier (p. 315) with a Force equal
to the Force of the ritual. The ward may encompass a
volume of up to fifty cubic meters times the sum of the
participants’ Magic ratings.
This ritual takes (Force) hours to complete. The ward
lasts for a number of weeks equal to the net hits from
the sealing step of the ritual—if the leader spends an
amount of karma equal to the ward’s Force, the ward is
permanent.

As a Ritual Casting, Wards are limited to and by the ritual casting rules....

[Michael Chandra]

Background count impacts Adept Powers? I thought it solely was a dice penalty for them, so only Qi Foci suffered from BC.

And yes, hits are untouched. And the limit of Force won't matter for the hits, since limit and force aren't strictly correlated (Edge/Reagents). But if the effect depends on Force, you get hit (e.g. range of Mindlink / Detect Enemies).

Aspected in your advantage does NOT reduce Force or give a penalty! It raises the limit instead! So you're not penalized for doing a cast in your Lodge.

For wards, I usually have a Ward to protect the core lab, or Mana Barriers on the small amount of entrances to hit sustained/quickened spells. Spirits would still be able to astrally enter a big lab that only has barriers on doors, but it's a good defensive measure against Shadowrunners.

[Kiirnodel]

Well adept powers are affected because anything they augment suffers the penalty.

And yes, the effectiveness of Foci are sometimes doubly hit by background. A weapon focus (for example) has its Force reduced by the Background, plus it suffers the background as a penalty on the attack rolls. So in comparison to a non-magic weapon it might become significantly less of a bonus than it was. Qi foci, likewise potentially lose the ability to function as the bonus they provide is directly linked to their Force (if the Force drops below 4x the PP cost, the can't give the power). Plus those powers still suffer that same background penalty still.


Hits are not explicitly reduced by Background, but I have seen GMs who will do so. In my house rules, I've instituted an "effectiveness normalization" rule for spells. Essentially, effects that temporarily increase (or remove) the limit on spells are only temporary. Hits above and beyond the Force of a spell slowly dissipate over time (Hours, in a manner similar to Alchemy Potency loss). This is completely house-ruled, and I did it to discourage the overuse of casting low Force spells utilizing reagents to make the limit negligible and then sustaining it indefinitely using a cheap focus. In fact, I think I only implemented this rule when those spells are set on penalty-free sustaining (foci & quickening).


I've noticed a significant lack of including wards in printed adventures recently. I know that in previous editions, they seemed to come up more for some reason. The best example I can think of for effective magical security of a black site magical research lab is from a 3rd Edition mission, here's an excerpt of the description:

From the surface of the facility, no magical barriers or
spells can be detected. The following magical wards have
been erected around the inside of the facility:
· Elevator/Elevator Shaft: Force 6
· Sublevel 1: None
· Sublevel 2: Force 4
· Sublevel 3: Force 8
· Sublevel 4: Force 15
The wards use Egyptian hieroglyphics inscribed on the
glass walls , roofs, floors and doors as physical
components. Therefore, the only way for a mage to go
through the wards are to defeat them in astral combat (SR3
p174) or physically open the doors.
The ward on level 4 is different. This rating 15 Ward
surrounds the roof, sides and floor of the entire level. The
ward’s physical components are Egyptian hieroglyphics
inscribed on the frosted glass floor, not the walls and
doors. Therefore, the only way for a mage to go through
this ward is to defeat it in astral combat (SR3 p174), or
turn off all spell foci, sustaining spells and all other active
magic.

[Michael Chandra]

Aren't low-force spells destroyed by background counts anyway, if the count >= the force? So that already helps balance them out.

I think a Force 15 ward is a bit overkill in SR5. XD It'd take a lot of effort to succeed at that one

[Sphinx]

1. Background Count. When you use a magical skill inside a background count, it's a penalty to your dice pool. When a pre-existing magical spell, spirit, or focus enters a Background Count from outside, it's a reduction in Force. A skill limit based on Force (i.e. spellcasting, summoning) applies when and where the skill is used. If a spell or spirit later enters a Background Count and has its Force reduced, that doesn't retroactively change the limit for the test. You still keep all the hits.

2. Wards. My personal rule of thumb: Anyplace that can afford full-time security guards can afford wards. The rating of the ward corresponds to the number of  guards on the night shift (up to about rating 5), unless there's a good, specific reason for a higher rating.

Figure a typical mid-size business can afford to hire a freelance magician ("professional" skill rating 6, average Magic attribute 3) to come around at regular intervals and ward the place. Working solo, her Ritual Spellcasting dice pool is 9. If she sets up a rating 3 ward, then the ritual takes 3 hours and averages one net hit, meaning she has to come back and renew the ward every week. Say she makes it a regular weekly appointment, charges 100 nuyen per hour plus ritual materials, and handles five or ten clients per week. Not a bad living, leaves plenty of free time. And if anyone messes with the ward, she calls Knight Errant to report an astral break-in.

Bigger companies can afford better magical security firms, who'll have ritual teams set up higher-rating wards for a lot more money, and might agree to investigate disturbances for even more money. Megacorps, of course, will have their own in-house magical security maintain serious wards around anything really important. Wards above rating 6 should be rare, though, and only for really sensitive locations. Think about that warding ritual: it takes [Force] hours, it's opposed by double the Force, Drain is double the hits on the opposing test, and Drain is Physical if the leader gets more hits than their Magic attribute. Before you set up a high-rating ward, make sure you know who's doing the warding and how much they're willing to risk.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

And on question 1, with a BGC lowering the Force of a spell it arguably can potentially cause spellcasting hits to drop off as lower Force=lower limit.  And to complicate that even further, if the spell was pre-edged (no limit) then that pre-existing spell would then be immune to the effects of a BGC so long as it remains at least Force 1.


What may be less clear is if you jump in and out of a BGC.  Quickened/Anchored spells replenish their Force @ 1 pt/hour, but if it's a sustained spell it's not Quickened/Anchored.  Way I read the rule (SG pg 32) if you edge in and out of the same BGC, the spell just gets diminished over and over till it's gone.  Likewise if you cast a spell inside a BGC (suffering the dice pool penalty), walk outside of the BGC, then carry the spell back inside, it's still diminished even though you originally cast the spell inside that BGC.

Same thing if you don't move, but the BGC fluctuates.  Say you're at a rock concert or sporting event.  A semi-stable BGC of 1 or 2 is reasonable during the event, but at certain times (home team scores, band begins playing a crowd favorite, etc) the BGC can spike up.  Then return to 1 or 2.  Then spike again.  Way I read the BGC rules, each time the  BGC spikes, your spells suffer a Force hit equal to the difference each time.

[Mollari]

Thanks guys so much for your responses.

Kiirnodel: Thanks for sharing the 3rd edition example of wards in missions. Something I wouldn't have been able to get my hands on otherwise

Sphinx: That's a really cool insight into the average day of an independent mage. I may reduce their frequency, as I'm trying to make sure my game isn't full of magical NPCs. The population is supposed to be 6% magically sensitive and most of them would be employed by corps. But that gives my runners a great ability to do legwork into how the wards are maintained. I like it.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat: I agree that RAW it seems that if you were to jump into and out of BGC it would continually reduce your hits. What I'm thinking of doing is a minor tweak so that positive BGC are aspected in a general term and you don't loose your acclimation immediately. If you cast your spell in Puyallup and the BGC is 3. All that violence, depression and mess of metahumanity taking it day by day; and you then enter the Redmond Barrens which is the same, just much worse, you've already acclimated to a portion of it. IE you're used to barrens'esk BGC of 3, so it shouldn't be too difficult for you to enter into different similarly flavoured areas.

Hopefully that's a small enough tweak that it's not a full blown house rule or such. I like to play as close to the rules as I can.

[Michael Chandra]

So basically you want a houserule that includes an 'acclimatised to BC of type X'? Makes perfect sense really.