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Rigger Dice Pools

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dmetzkayak

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« on: <07-05-18/1427:22> »
I am interested in making a rigger. After reading the rules, it seems that Riggers can control their drones/vehicles through three methods.
Remote Control Decks
Rigger Interface
VR

What attributes and skills make up the dice pools for different vehicle tasks, specifically,
Piloting
Gunning
Sneaking
Defense
Perception
????
Oh, and what is the success limit governs each of these tests?

Is their a table that breaks this down for players.
Any help is appreciated.
Thanks.

Sphinx

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« Reply #1 on: <07-06-18/0241:03> »
I’m probably going to get something wrong here, because it’s complicated. Feel free to chime in with corrections if I overlook something.

There are four ways to control a vehicle (see “Complete Control,” SR5 p.265): manually, by remote control, by jumping in with a Control Rig implant, or by giving instructions to the autopilot (a.k.a. “dog-brain”).

MANUAL CONTROL (see “Vehicles,” SR5 p.198)
You sit in the driver seat and guide the vehicle by hand, using either physical controls or Augmented Reality (AR) controls.
  • Drive: Pilot skill + Reaction [Handling or Speed, as appropriate (+1 if using AR controls, see “Piloting Using AR/VR,” SR5 p.201)]
  • Initiative: Reaction + Intuition + 1D6 (adjusted for any reflex augmentations)
  • Attack: Gunnery + Agility [Accuracy] (see “Gunnery,” SR5 p.183) or Gunnery + Logic [Sensor] (see “Sensor Targeting,” SR5 p.184)
  • Defense: Reaction + Intuition
  • Perception: Perception + Intuition [Mental], or Perception or Electronic Warfare + Intuition [Sensor] (see “Sensors,” SR5 p.445)
  • Sneak: Sneaking + Reaction [Handling] (see “Sensor Attacks,” SR5 p.184)

REMOTE CONTROL (see “Control Device,” SR5 p.238)
You operate the vehicle by remote control, using a physical console or one generated in AR or VR by a commlink, cyberdeck, or rigger command console (RCC). If you use hotsim VR, you get +2 dice to Matrix actions including Control Device (see “Hot-Sim Virtual Reality,” SR5 p.230).
  • Drive: Pilot skill + Reaction (+2 if using hotsim) [Handling or Speed (as appropriate) or Data Processing (if it’s lower) (+1 AR, +2 VR)]
  • Initiative (physical or AR): Reaction + Intuition + 1D6 (adjusted for reflex augmentations)
  • Initiative (coldsim VR): Data Processing + Intuition + 3D6
  • Initiative (hotsim VR): Data Processing + Intuition + 4D6
  • Attack: Gunnery + Logic (+2 hotsim) [Accuracy or Sensor (whichever is higher) or Data Processing (if it’s lower)]
  • Defense: Reaction + Intuition (+2 hotsim)
  • Perception: Perception or Electronic Warfare + Intuition (+2 hotsim) [Sensor or Data Processing, whichever is lower]
  • Sneak: Sneaking + Reaction (+2 hotsim) [Handling or Data Processing, whichever is lower]

RIGGER CONTROL (see “Being the Machine,” SR5 p.265)
You jack directly into the vehicle while sitting in the driver’s seat, or jump in remotely using an RCC. Either way, you need a Control Rig (SR5 p.452), which adds its rating to your vehicle skill dice pools (Gunnery and Pilot skills) and most limits (see “Rigging and Limits,” SR5 p.266), and subtracts its rating from Vehicle Test Thresholds (SR5 p.199). Remember that you have to be in VR before jumping into a vehicle or drone, and using hotsim while rigging gives you a +1 dice pool bonus to Matrix and Vehicle actions (see “VR and Rigging,” SR5 p.266).
  • Drive: Pilot skill + Reaction + Control Rig (+1 if using hotsim) [Handling or Speed + Control Rig + 2 for VR]
  • Initiative (coldsim VR): Data Processing + Intuition + 3D6
  • Initiative (hotsim VR): Data Processing + Intuition + 4D6
  • Attack: Gunnery + Logic + Control Rig (+1 hotsim) [Accuracy or Sensor + Control Rig]
  • Defense: Reaction + Intuition (+1 hotsim)
  • Perception: Perception or Electronic Warfare + Intuition (+1 hotsim) [Sensor + Control Rig]
  • Sneak: Sneaking + Reaction (+1 hotsim) [Handling + Control Rig]

AUTOPILOT (see “Drones,” SR5 p.269)
You give commands with a Simple Action, verbally or wirelessly, and the vehicle’s Pilot program carries them out. It uses its Pilot rating instead of an attribute, and an Autosoft program rating (if it has one loaded) instead of a skill.
  • Drive: Pilot + Maneuvering autosoft [Handling or Speed]
  • Initiative: Pilot + Pilot + 4D6
  • Attack: Pilot + Targeting autosoft [Accuracy or Sensor]
  • Defense: Pilot + Maneuvering autosoft (see “Attacks Against Vehicles,” SR5 p.205)
  • Perception: Pilot + Clearsight autosoft [Sensor]
  • Sneak: Pilot + Stealth autosoft [Handling]

A vehicle’s condition monitor equals 12 plus half its Body (round up), a drone’s condition monitor is 6 plus half its Body (see “Vehicle Stats,” SR5 p.199). The modified DV of an attack must exceed the vehicle’s Armor or it takes no damage. All vehicles resist damage with Body + Armor. Riggers who are jumped into a vehicle or drone resist biofeedback damage equal to half the damage taken by the machine (round up) using Willpower + Firewall. Biofeedback damage is Stun in cold sim, Physical in hot sim. If a vehicle or drone is destroyed while a rigger is jumped in, they have to resist 6 boxes of biofeedback from dumpshock (see “Rigging and You,” SR5 p.266).

[EDIT: Updated with corrections based on feedback from Xenon and Michael Chandra. Thanks, guys.]
« Last Edit: <07-08-18/1215:16> by Sphinx »

Xenon

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« Reply #2 on: <07-06-18/0259:23> »
Send Message to the auto pilot and let the auto pilot take the action using its own pilot rating, auto softs and initiative. Send Message can be used from AR and VR (no matter if you use cold-sim or hot-sim or if you are jumped into another drone or not). If you use an RCC and slave your drones to it then you can send the same instruction to multiple drones as one simple action, you can share autosofts, you can reduce noise and you can use electronic warfare to reduce noise.

Control Device to remote control the drone. This will override the auto pilot. You use your own attributes, skills and initiative. Control Device can be used from AR and VR (no matter if you use cold-sim or hot-sim or if you are jumped into another drone or not). You use normal attributes, skills and limits - but you are also limited by the [Data Processing] attribute of the device you used when you logged into the matrix (RCC, commlink, cyberdeck...) if it is lower and your actions are also affected by noise and poor conditions of the public grid if you use that. If you use an RCC and slave your drones to it then you can reduce noise and you can use electronic warfare to reduce noise. A satellite link can be used to limit noise due to distance if you are operating remotely more than 10 km away.

Jumped Into Rigged Device to jump into a drone. To do this you need a Control Rig Implant. This will override both auto pilot and remote control. You use your own attributes, skills and initiative (same attributes and skills as if you are remote controlling). Jumped Into Rigged Device is a complex action if you are in AR or a simple action if you are in VR already or if you are in AR but directly connected to the vehicle. If you use an RCC and slave your drones to it then you can jump between your drones without first exiting to VR or AR before jumping into another drone, you can reduce noise and you can use electronic warfare to reduce noise.

Rigger Jump In. You may also jump into a vehicle directly from meat space (without first using a RCC, commlink or cyberdeck). This is a complex action or a simple action if you are already directly connected to the vehicle with a cable from your control rig. You will use matrix attributes of the vehicle (unless you are jumping into a space ship the vehicle normally have rather low ratings).


Piloting use Reaction and is almost always limited by [Handling]. In some cases the limit will be [Speed], specifically when you are trying to catch up, break away or perform a stunt but for all three cases only when you are also in a Speed Environment (for example major highway, open field, calm waters, or clear skies). The threshold depend on the situation and the dice pool is modified by the terrain.

Drone Gunnery use Agility and is limited by [Accuracy] but you also have the option to use sensor targeting. In this case Gunnery use Logic and is limited by [Sensor]. If you use [Sensor] as a limit then you also need to apply the Signature Table found on SR5 p. 184. Drones roll Pilot + [Weapon] Targeting Autosoft limited by [Accuracy].

Sneaking (Vehicle specialization apply) use Reaction and is limited by [Handling]. The dice applied for Sneaking skill should not exceed the driver’s appropriate Vehicle skill. Drones use Pilot + [Model] Stealth [Handling].

When a vehicle is attacked in combat, the driver rolls his Reaction + Intuition as the defense part of the Opposed Test. Drones roll their Pilot + Autosoft [Handling].

Perception while jumped into a drone use Intuition and is limited by [Sensor](SR5 p. 270). You may replace Perception with Electronic Warfare (SR5 p. 445). You need to use the Signature Table found on SR5 p. 184. Drones use Pilot + Clearsight [Sensor].


...slipped by Sphinx
« Last Edit: <07-06-18/0341:04> by Xenon »

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #3 on: <07-06-18/0304:51> »
Note that the Rigger stuff has possible contradictions on stuff like HotSim bonus.  -_-
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Xenon

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« Reply #4 on: <07-06-18/0325:34> »
@Michael Chandra
Not only that, as written, most Riggers can't even go hot-sim at all (since hot-sim VR require a sim-module modded for hot-sim).

While the Control Rig does come with a sim-module it is not modded for hot-sim (compare with cyberdeck that is super explicit that the sim-module it comes with is also modded for hot-sim out of the box) and RCC don't even come with a sim-module at all.

It have also been suggested (by Aaron on this very board) that the regular +2 hot-sim bonus stack with the +1 dice pool bonus that you get for jumping in while using hot-sim (gut feeling is that they are the same bonus, but I guess it could be interpreted as they are different bonuses and not all all mutually exclusive). Also, should probably note that Vehicle actions include Gunnery Tests, Sensor Tests and Vehicle Tests (in that case they all would get +3 dice for hot-sim rigging). On top of that Vehicle Tests also add the control rig rating as  a positive dice pool modifier...


@Sphinx,
SR5 make a distinction between Drones and Vehicles.

While you are correct that Gunnery use Logic for remote operations, Drone Gunnery use Agility (but Sensor Targeting always use Logic, even for drones).

SR5 p. 238 Control Device
firing a drone-mounted weapon at a target requires a Gunnery + Agility test

This is also clarified by SRM.
« Last Edit: <07-06-18/0403:01> by Xenon »

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #5 on: <07-06-18/0734:23> »
Mind you, because of the poorly written Rigger rules, when you use Agility vs Logic is both a matter of debate and can be easily houseruled to be more consistent.
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Sphinx

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« Reply #6 on: <07-06-18/1318:37> »
Some notes ...

1. Remote Gunnery (Agility vs. Logic): There's a contradiction in the rules. Control Device (p.238) says "firing a drone-mounted weapon at a target requires a Gunnery + Agility test," but Gunnery (p.183) prescribes "Gunnery + Logic [Accuracy] for remote-operated systems." I think the mistake is in Control Device, so I recommend Gunnery + Logic for remote control. It makes more sense to me that way. But it's GM's choice.

2. Rigging with Hot Sim: VR and Rigging (p.266) says "you have the option of using hot-sim or cold-sim while rigging," so either the Control Rig's built-in sim module is inherently capable of running hot simsense, or it can be modded for hot-sim when it's installed, like a headware commlink. The price difference is negligible.

3. Hot Sim Bonus: Hot-Sim Virtual Reality (p.230) says "You receive a +2 dice pool bonus to all Matrix actions." This applies when using the Control Device action to operate a drone by remote control from Virtual Reality with hot simsense. But VR and Rigging (p.266) says you get "a +1 dice pool bonus to all Matrix tests (including Vehicle actions)." Specific takes precedence over general, so when you're jumped into a vehicle or drone, you get the +1 bonus from p.266, not the +2 bonus from p.230. I do not believe they stack; that seems abusive. But again, GM's choice.

4. Control Rig Bonus: The Control Rig (p.452) "provides its rating as a dice pool bonus on all Vehicle skill tests." Vehicle skills (p.146) include Gunnery and the various Pilot skills. Not all vehicle actions (p.202) are vehicle skill tests. The control rig dice pool bonus doesn't apply to a vehicle action that doesn't involve a vehicle skill (Gunnery or Pilot). "Additionally, the rating of your control rig is added to the Handling and Speed of any vehicle you are jumped into." Control rig doesn't affect Accuracy, Sensor, or other limits, just Handling and Speed. [EDIT: I had this part wrong; thanks to Michael Chandra for the correction.]

Some questions ...

A. Vehicular Sneaking: As far as I can tell, sneaking while operating a vehicle or drone should be based on Intuition (see Drone Infiltration, p.270). Where do you get Reaction?

B. Drone Defense: Since drones use Pilot rating in place of attributes and autosofts for skills, shouldn't a Reaction + Intuition defense test convert to Pilot + Pilot? Why would they use an autosoft for this?
« Last Edit: <07-06-18/1358:47> by Sphinx »

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #7 on: <07-06-18/1340:54> »
Iirc Gunnery is a vehicle something in hotsim. So Control Rig applies iirc.

You talk about Handling and Speed but that is the Gear chapter. Rigger chapter states all those limits. One is wrong. I bet on the one stating Speed instead of [Speed].

As for the contradiction: the fluff explicitly mentions making AR gestures. So it's not necessarily a contradiction. It's just not properly defined when which.
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Myriad

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« Reply #8 on: <07-06-18/1345:13> »
Just to confirm, you still use gunnery for held weapons by anthrodrone or similar arms, right?

edit:  You apply hotsim bonus for defense tests too?  I thought since it was 'actions' it wouldn't apply to this for some reason.
« Last Edit: <07-06-18/1352:45> by Myriad »

Sphinx

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« Reply #9 on: <07-06-18/1354:16> »
Iirc Gunnery is a vehicle something in hotsim. So Control Rig applies iirc.

You talk about Handling and Speed but that is the Gear chapter. Rigger chapter states all those limits. One is wrong. I bet on the one stating Speed instead of [Speed].

As for the contradiction: the fluff explicitly mentions making AR gestures. So it's not necessarily a contradiction. It's just not properly defined when which.

You're right. I missed that. Rigging and Limits (p.266) says "When you're jumped into a vehicle, drone, or other device, the limits of that device are increased by the rating of your control rig. This includes vehicle and drone Sensor, Speed, and Handling, and the Accuracy of mounted weapons when used by the rigger."

I'll update below.

Lewis Greywolf

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« Reply #10 on: <07-06-18/1633:39> »
1. Remote Gunnery (Agility vs. Logic): There's a contradiction in the rules. Control Device (p.238) says "firing a drone-mounted weapon at a target requires a Gunnery + Agility test," but Gunnery (p.183) prescribes "Gunnery + Logic [Accuracy] for remote-operated systems." I think the mistake is in Control Device, so I recommend Gunnery + Logic for remote control. It makes more sense to me that way. But it's GM's choice.

I was running "Build a Runner Workshop" and "First Taste" at Origins this year and I wanted to make sure I was explaining things to people correctly. So before I got started I specifically asked how Gunnery was played in Missions (and pointed out that it was not addressed in the FAQ.) I was told that for Missions play "Gunnery always uses Agility, except when using a Sensor Lock, then its Logic." So unless I am misunderstanding things completely, Riggers using Gunnery in Remote Control (and that includes Jumped In) have the choice of using either Agility or Logic depending solely on whether they are targeting visually or using a (passive or active) sensor lock.
Louis "Graywolf" Ray
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adzling

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« Reply #11 on: <07-06-18/1647:35> »
That’s a missions only ruling in the absence of errata.

The errata team is chewing on this currently.

Lewis Greywolf

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« Reply #12 on: <07-06-18/1711:49> »
That’s a missions only ruling in the absence of errata.
The errata team is chewing on this currently.

It's certainty something that needs an errata (and has needed it for a long time). It really looks bad when you have to explain to someone new to the game that they shouldn't write up a Rigger because the core mechanics are open to a particular GMs interpretation (and the next GM may have the opposite interpretation in the next game.)
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adzling

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« Reply #13 on: <07-06-18/2010:51> »
Agree 1000%

Xenon

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« Reply #14 on: <07-08-18/1106:21> »
There's a contradiction in the rules...
There is no contradiction.

The book simply make a distinction between Drones and Vehicles. Even more apparent when you look in Rigger 5.0

p. 183 is talking about vehicle-mounted weapons, not drone-mounted weapons. Vehicle mounted weapons use Logic (except for manual operation, then it use Agility).

p. 238 is talking about drone-mounted weapons, not vehicle-mounted weapons. Drone mounted weapons use Agility (except for Sensor attacks, then it use Logic).

That you always use Agility for Drone gunnery (except if you use Sensor attacks) have also been clarified by SRM (pending official errata).



"you have the option of using hot-sim or cold-sim while rigging,"
They are not lying in that statement.

You can still use jump in with hot-sim VR if you connect to the matrix with a control rig + commlink with a sim-module illegally modded for hot-sim or if you connect to the matrix using a control rig + cyberdeck which, unlike the control rig, come with hot-sim out of the box.

But as written you don't get hot-sim VR if you connect to the matrix with control rig + RCC (in this case you don't have a sim module modded for hot sim) or if you just connect direct with control rig + vehicle (in this case you also don't have a sim module modded for hot sim).

The intent might very well be that control rig come with sim module modded for hot sim out of the box, but this have been asked in topics where authors have been reading and answering in and even years later with 5 different reprints of the core there have been no changes or errata.....



Where do you get Reaction?
Vehicles use Reaction (p. 184) while Drones use Intuition (p. 270)



Why would they use an autosoft for this?
SR5 p. 205 Attacks against vehicles
Drones roll their Pilot + Autosoft [Handling].