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Astral Manifestation and Weapon Foci...

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DarthRapier

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« on: <04-23-18/0412:25> »
This came up in our game tonight and we could not find an answer so we're asking around.

We have a Mage manifesting in the middle of the room warning the group of the impending failure. My Physical Adept with his active +2 Katana weapon Focus wants to attack him.

Yes or no?

The Foci being dual-natured should slice him up just like a manifested spirit but the rules get unclear in the separation between astral and physical when it comes to dual natured weapons. Any help would be appreciated, thanks.

Xenon

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« Reply #1 on: <04-23-18/0421:02> »
The manifesting magician does not have a physical form so he cannot be hurt on the physical plane

The manifesting magician still have an astral form and can be hurt in astral combat.

An active weapon foci have a presence in astral space and can harm an astral form..... However, the wielder must be present on the astral plane to use the foucs in astral combat.

The only way for the adept to attack the manifesting magician in this example is by using astral perception (as this would make him dual-natured and enable him to engage a wholly astral form using Astral Combat + Willpower rather than his physical attributes and skills).
« Last Edit: <04-23-18/0431:03> by Xenon »

DarthRapier

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« Reply #2 on: <04-23-18/1205:39> »
But I can see him... he is right there... Logically the dual nature of the Weapon Foci, which exist in astral space as you said, should do something to him as it passes through his astral form.

Xenon

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« Reply #3 on: <04-23-18/1231:51> »
The rules are actually pretty explicit here.

SR5 p. 314 Astral Movement
Active weapon foci have a presence in astral space and can harm an astral form (see Foci, p. 318), but you must be present on the astral plane to use the focus in astral combat.

SR5 p. 315 Astral Combat
Astrally perceiving and dual-natured characters use their physical attributes and skills to fight opponents with a physical body, and their Astral Combat + Willpower to fight wholly astral entities.


Also, astral Combat is mostly fought in the minds of the combatants. Doesn't matter how hard you strike. You don't even use your physical skills and attributes in astral combat to begin with. You need willpower rather than strength. And Astral Combat training. And astral perception (or projection).

If a spirit had been using the Materialization power then the adept could have attacked him on the physical plane using his weapon focus, his physical skills and his physical attributes.

SmilinIrish

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« Reply #4 on: <04-30-18/1216:27> »
It's not like a magic weapon hitting an incoporeal being.  Using your muscles to swing a physical object at the psychic manifestation of a mage does nothing.  You must perceive them in the astral, use your mental ability to focus an astrally present weapon to actually strike their astral form.  Since you aren't projecting, the fact that your body has to follow the motion of the astral attack is sort of a side effect. 
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Jack_Spade

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« Reply #5 on: <04-30-18/1748:29> »
That's not quite as clear cut.
p.399 core:
"A dual-natured critter with a melee Natural Weapon can use this power against astral targets that are within its reach. Use the critter’s normal Unarmed Combat skill and physical Damage Value for this attack."

An adept with Astral Perception is dual natured and could use his Natural Weapons to attack in melee. It's not a big stretch to extend this to a dual natured weapon focus.
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SmilinIrish

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« Reply #6 on: <04-30-18/1800:49> »
Hm...Well, at the very least the adept would have to be astrally perceiving, which takes a simple action to shift, so wouldn't attack until next pass.  Then he would be vulnerable to mana spells from the mage waiting for his next turn.

As for using regular combat skill, it's not unreasonable, but I'd still call it a houserule.  You quoted a section of the critter power Natural Weapon.  I don't see where adepts are given this critter power.  Again, can't say it would be horribly inbalanced, but a houserule in my opinion.
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Jack_Spade

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« Reply #7 on: <04-30-18/1844:24> »
Fair enough.
But there are more arguments to be made:
Astral forms can't pass through other astral forms without causing damage. That's how dual natured moss and FAB II work as a barrier to purely astral forms.

If they are forced against each other, Intersection occurs:

"Mana barriers and astral forms are often tied to physical objects. Astral beings can’t push physical objects around, so objects may get dragged into contact with barriers or (rarely) other astral constructs. For example, a van protected with a mana barrier can drive into a warded garage, an astrally perceiving magician can ride an elevator into a warded basement, or a spell focus amulet could be placed inside a spirit focus box. If this happens, each astral form makes an Opposed Test: living beings a Magic + Charisma [Astral], and non-living barriers and objects a Force x 2 [Force] test. The participant with any net hits remains normal and intact, while all others are disrupted—on a tie, all participants are disrupted."
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SmilinIrish

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« Reply #8 on: <04-30-18/2127:23> »
What you say about barriers and astral intersections is true.  But that is like comparing hitting a wall with a bat vs hitting a person with a bat.  If you are standing close to the wall you can't really miss.  But you always have the chance to miss the person.  Same with astral forms intersecting with a barrier.  Not a dodge sort of situation.  But hitting that astral form with the focus is just like hitting a person with a bat:  contact is not guaranteed.  That's why its an opposed roll.  The question is just what attributes to use.  Since melee kind of sucks, and astral combat usually sucks more, I don't think it unreasonable to allow physical stat and weapon skill, but astral perception is absolutely a must. 
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SpellBinder

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« Reply #9 on: <05-01-18/0138:48> »
In the case of someone with an active weapon focus swinging at a manifested magician (which is visible to all, no Astral Perception required) I would say it would be Agility + Weapon Skill + Focus [Accuracy] vs. Intuition + Logic and damage would be Strength + Weapon + Net Hits to the manifested magician.

Now if the target is not manifesting (a.k.a., not visible) then obviously this can't work at all as you have no real way of being able to know where to swing that active weapon focus.  You can't even call in Blindfighting as you have absolutely no senses to call upon to try and figure where your target is.  You might as well try to shoot for He Who Walks Behind.

Xenon

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« Reply #10 on: <05-01-18/0342:27> »
In the case of someone with an active weapon focus swinging at a manifested magician (which is visible to all, no Astral Perception required) I would say it would be Agility + Weapon Skill + Focus [Accuracy] vs. Intuition + Logic and damage would be Strength + Weapon + Net Hits to the manifested magician.
If an active weapon focus can hurt entities on the astral plane without the wielder being active on the Astral Plane (as you suggest) then you must also accept that wholly astral beings can hurt the owner of an active weapon focus out on the physical plane. This actually used to be a thing in earlier editions (you could for example ground an AoE spell from the astral plane through an active weapon focus to hurt it's owner on the Physical plane). This is not how it works in SR5.


While your idea might sound reasonable it would have to be considered a house rule. RAW on this matter is clear IMO.


"When you astral project you become a purely astral form... Manifesting is a psychic effect... manifesting doesn't give you a physical form... It's a psychic connection... You're still on the astral plane..."
(you have an Astral Form, unlike Materialization, Manifestation does not give you a Physical Form)


"Astrally perceiving and dual-natured characters use their physical combat and physical attributes to attack opponents that have a physical form."
(for example a spirit that use the materialization power, but not a magician that use manifestation).


"Astrally perceiving and dual-natured characters use their ... Astral Combat + Willpower to fight wholly astral entities."
(for example a spirit that is not using the materialization power or a projecting magician no matter if he use manifestation or not).


By RAW a character on the Physical Plane cannot attack an Astral Form that doesn't have a Physical Form unless the character have a way of perceiving (dipping his head) or projecting (taking the full dive) into the Astral Plane, and in that case he would use Astral Combat and Mental Attributes. By RAW you are never allowed to use Physical Combat and Physical Attributes to attack an Astral Entity that doesn't have a Physical Form.
« Last Edit: <05-01-18/0400:55> by Xenon »

Jack_Spade

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« Reply #11 on: <05-01-18/0358:18> »
By RAW a character on the Physical Plane cannot attack an Astral Form that doesn't have a Physical Form unless the character have a way of perceiving (dipping his head) or projecting (taking the full dive) into the Astral Plane, and in that case he would use Astral Combat and Mental Attributes. By RAW you are never allowed to use Physical Combat and Physical Attributes to attack an Astral Entity that doesn't have a Physical Form.

I think, I've disproven the last bit with the above quote - which is important because there are dual-natured creatures and characters without access to astral combat. Those would be utterly defenseless otherwise.

And intersection is an equal opportunity situation where you very well can shut down a dual-natured focus.
Using normal fighting rules is a concession to the fact that the manifesting entity still can try to get out of the way of the intersection.
It may not be spelled out this way by the rules, but it is a logical way to handle actual play (as the starting post implies).
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Marcus

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« Reply #12 on: <05-01-18/0418:22> »
My understanding is if your perceiving and they are not active on this side you go to astral combat using your weapon focus, Astral Combat + Willpower [Accuracy] vs Intuition+Logic, base Damage= Cha+Focus damage.

Astrally perceiving and dual-natured characters
use their physical attributes and skills to fight opponents
with a physical body, and their Astral Combat
+ Willpower to fight wholly astral entities.
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Xenon

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« Reply #13 on: <05-01-18/0422:10> »
I think, I've disproven the last bit with the above quote
Wait. What? Are you talking about dual-natured critters with the Natural Weapon power?

This is an explicit exception to the general rule and it only applies explicitly to dual-natured critters with melee weapon that have the Natural Weapon power. It does not also apply to dual-natured physical adepts with active weapon focus. And it certainly does not apply to wholly physical adepts that doesn't even have access to astral perception to become dual-natured to begin with.

It is clear that dual-natured physical adepts with active weapon focus use astral combat and mental attributes when they engage in combat with a wholly astral entity.

In this edition a wholly physical entity on the physical plane that is not dual natrured is fully immune to wholly astral entities on the astral plane that are not dual natured. And wholly astral entities on the astral plane that are not dual natured are fully immune to wholly physical entities on the physical plane that are not dual natured.

A dual-natured entity can be attacked both from astral and physical plane. A dual natured entity can attack both on astral (using astral combat) and physical plane (using physical combat).

The critter power you talking about does not change this. In order for the critter to use his Natural melee Weapon against wholly astral entities the critter need to be dual-natured.
« Last Edit: <05-01-18/0428:29> by Xenon »

Kiirnodel

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« Reply #14 on: <05-01-18/0443:33> »
If an active weapon focus can hurt entities on the astral plane without the wielder being active on the Astral Plane (as you suggest) then you must also accept that wholly astral beings can hurt the owner of an active weapon focus out on the physical plane. This actually used to be a thing in earlier editions (you could for example ground an AoE spell from the astral plane through an active weapon focus to hurt it's owner on the Physical plane). This is not how it works in SR5.

Why does it have to work both ways? The wielder of the weapon focus isn't active on the astral plane, they are just swinging a dual-natured sword through the manifesting mage.

There are essentially two options with this circumstance:
1. The wielder of the sword attempts an attack that has the draw-back of causing an astral intersection if successful.
2. You treat the circumstance as a pseudo astral attack and deal with it like normal.

Nothing about that situation lets the manifesting mage strike back at the wielder of the sword. But they would be able to attack the astral form of the sword and potentially cause it to deactivate.