[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Reference: SR5 pg 84.

Now, I understand why SINs are considered a negative quality.  Shadowrunners can largely get away with their crimes because any forensic evidence they might leave behind just ends up being from a SINless person and therefore not tied to any identity databases.  (this is also why Fake SINs don't incorporate your real DNA...)

The National SIN makes sense as the cheapest drawback, as all it does is put your character "in the system".  Criminal SINs OTOH do that, PLUS put a giant bullseye on the character in everything he does in "legit" society.

The part that is a headscratcher for me is why Corp and Corp Limited SINs are worth more/considered worse to have.  On interacting with law-abiding NPCs, Corp SINs certainly don't have the stigmas that are carried via Criminal SINs.  They're described as being stigmatizing with shadow community NPCs, sure.  But from a game mechanics point of view, what makes them worth the extra karma?  On one hand, in a Missions environment (or any home game I'd consider "sane") non-consensual PvP is not allowed, so you don't even have to worry about what the other PCs might do even if they did learn your character has a Corp SIN.  So being seen as linked to "the Man" will in practice only affect interactions with NPCs, which might be considered a bigger deal than being penalized for interacting with "straight" NPCs as Shadowrunners tend to interact with shadow community NPCs more often than law-abiding ones.

But not really, there's not a bigger disadvantage in practice.  Any and every character should have at least one Fake SIN.  If you have a real SIN, you just don't broadcast it while you're doing shadowrun stuff.  You'd have to be crazy to not use your Fake SIN, so for the purposes of pretty much everything but having to explain yourself to cops/security after your Fake SIN has been sussed out, your real SIN pretty much has the same practical impact on play (next to none unless you're caught) but yet they don't cost the same.  What makes having a Corp Limited or full blown Corp SIN mechanically worth the extra karma you get for them?

[Bewilderbeast]

I've always assumed this is because corporations will try to get you back. The implication is that corporate citizenship (and, by extension) corporate SINs are not given lightly. If you have one, it's because you were on file somewhere, at some point in time, as being an official employee of a corporation. Maybe you were born into it, maybe you have some very expensive and specific skills, whatever. And while you might have slipped into the shadows temporarily, they're eventually going to try and drag you back to the office.

How hard they try, and how unpleasant and persistent their attempts, will depend on if it's a limited corporate SIN or a full corporate SIN. Seeing as how a full corporate SIN is a full 25 karma NQ, it's safe to assume the corps will move heaven and earth in their attempts to hunt you down and coerce you into "fulfilling your contract."

Of course, the core rulebook doesn't really spell this out, and makes a criminal SIN sound much, much worse than a corporate SIN, despite being less karma. It's left up to the GM to make the corporate SINs actually worse and more of an inconvenience in play.

Consider that one of the classic types of run is the "extraction," forcibly kidnapping someone the corp personally wants. Where do you suppose those jobs come from, hmm?

[Mollari]

Hey there Devil Rat.

So there are a number of reasons why a Corp SIN are difficult to maintain as both a Shadowrunner and a normal citizen.

A SIN is an alphanumeric code of around 16 figures. The details that are linked to this SIN sits in two locations.
a) The Global SIN Regristry
b) The Country/Corp that issued it (as corps are extra-territorial)

If you have a Corp SIN this means whenever your SIN is scanned that corp (the one that threw you out) will know about it. If they threw you out on your ass, then good luck trying to get a new job in any of the corps/subsidiaries because they'll know, and corps are typically vindictive.

If you're a Shadowrunner and there's any forensic evidence, whilst the Corp may block the release of your information to law enforcement (because if they didn't that'd mean having a corp sin as a runner would def be a death sentence) they would immediately know you're basically a runner. The Corp will use you, frame you, own you. Not fun for a runner.

The final element that comes into play are all the behavioural data that's collected on that SIN. You have to pay taxes when you have a Corp SIN... but funny that. You appear to have an income but no discernible employment attached to that SIN. You seem to be walking around the main city in the city pinging shops with your SIN as you buy your fancy suits, but how did you afford that. Are you buying a legal to own gun?!?!?! Hmmmm... someone who has income but largely undeclared, has a growing asset base and yet isn't employed by any corp... RUNNER!

This is just my opinion, and the game doesn't really account for what happens when your tax is audited or what happens when flags are raised.

[Marcus]

So the question is what does a Corp sin Represent?

The Down side of the Criminal SIN and the normal sin is fairly obvious. The Normal sin, your in the data base to be found. It just means that at some point, your gonna have something go wrong and there will trace some piece of evidence back to your SIN. Now that doesn't mean they can find you, or that your gonna end up guilty as charged but it makes it a big step easier. The Criminal SIN is the largely the same, but now your an Ex-Con, and so your already on the usual suspect list. You might get brought in just b/c you did something similar to a crime that was just committed. In the eyes of the Authorities your already guilty as charged, they just haven't connected all the dots yet.

Ok. So that's easy to understand the danger they represent are the Authorities.


This brings us to the CORP SIN. If you have one these odds are you grew up in Archology, educated by and for the CORP, raised to be part of the corporate Elite. Someone who would ether was will someday a valued member of Mega corporation. The haves of the world. The character could maybe even by part of the 1%. But now here where it gets dangerous. Why is someone who could be making great money in corp world, running the shadows? Can you actually believe the SOB story the character tells about falling from grace, running away from her/his super rich family? Or is just another trap by the corps, a corp agent, looking to jump a couple play grades line by spending sometime in the Shadows spying for his/her Mega? Maybe you do believe their SOB story, but your team has run go wrong, and you need to get your hands on some cash in a hurry, a Corp SIN means someone is probably willing to pay for you. Maybe your characters parent, or maybe character parent's enemies. But a CORP SIN, means people with money might well pay attention and spend more the just attention on the character.

So the threat from the CORP SIN, isn't from the authorities, though there maybe some degree of that, depending on whether the character can be used a pawn in someone agenda. But mainly the danger is your fellow runner, deciding that your a better pay day then whatever Mr.Johnson is promising. There are other layers to it as well, the character's family is now fair game to come up as whole set of issues, and odds are have the resources to be a serous problem, if the GM wants them to be.

[ShadowcatX]

I've never met a PC yet who was like "Oh, that person's sin says they are Mr. Smith, that's obviously their real ID and I definitely shouldn't do any further digging." And if that's how PCs are, what makes you think NPCs who have more experience in the shadows aren't the exact same way, only better at it. Mages can read it in your aura, Decker's can find it in the 'trix, and a face can charm it out of you during a night on the town, samurais can discover it after a night in.

And then what you ask? Then anything. You're fucked, massively most like, but how is up to the whim of whoever found out. You are one of the enemy, after all. You pay taxes to your Corp. Hard earned creds. You think anyone is going to believe that's all you send back to them every month?

And then, ya, there's the Corp. You are one of, at most, a handful of thousands of people with a Corp SIN. You're someone. Your actions, if you are called to account for them, will reflect on your Corp. Do they want you back? Want you dead? Want to use you where you are? Probably all of the above depending on who you talk to. Whatever happens, you can bet it isn't good for you. 

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Well the nature of Missions play is that the pre-generated runs won't really give the GM full flexibility to employ the "background hooks" on negative qualities like Corp/Corp Limited SINs.  But then again, I suppose whether those SINs should be legal for Missions play is really a question for the Missions forum.

Still, on thinking about it I did come up with a pure rules mechanic impact of a Corp/Corp Limited SIN, and it's actually a potential doozy:

You gain a Criminal SIN if you're seriously caught/busted/etc.  In the case of SINless and National SINner Runners, it's no big deal.  Just gain the Criminal SIN and in the case of the latter, lose the pre-existing National SIN.  Now in the case of negative qualities being rendered moot in play, you're required to buy them off (see the example of a Blind runner getting Cybereyes implanted).  So in losing a National SIN to gain a Criminal SIN, you not only gain the "worse" quality but it costs you 10 karma to buy off the 5 Karma National SIN quality!  Now think of how bad it is for those spoiled Corp Kiddies playing in the shadows getting busted and slapped with a Criminal SIN...

[Xenon]

...this is also why Fake SINs don't incorporate your real DNA...

There are fake SINs that give you a complete alternate life, including, but not limited to; Valid biometrics (even with samples). For reference, see SR5 - Fake SIN Details p. 367.

But from a game mechanics point of view, what makes them worth the extra karma? 

Game mechanic wise they don't really come into play. It is 100% up to the GM to role play them. They are great background hooks.

Having a Legal Corporate Limited SIN while working in the shadows should basically be as hard to live with as for example having a Moderate allergy to something common, such as sunlight (which also give you 15 Karma). Having a full Corporate SIN while working in the shadows should be as hard to live with as for example a Burnout Addiction (25 karma).

If the GM neglect to play out the negative qualities then you are basically looking at 15 (or even 25) free Karma.

[Hobbes]

Well the nature of Missions play is that the pre-generated runs won't really give the GM full flexibility to employ the "background hooks" on negative qualities like Corp/Corp Limited SINs.

You are correct.  As far as (actual) Missions play goes Criminal SIN is worse than Corporate SIN, but worth less points.  But to be perfectly honest, it's not a struggle to come up with 25 Karma of Negative qualities that will never come up in a meaningful way if that is a player's goal.  Minor Addiction is outright an advantage for anyone with Narco. Weak Immune System is basically 10 free Karma.  Assorted Phobia's and Allergies that will never actually come up in Missions play.  (Allergic to dogs anyone?  How about Phobia of Heights?)  A lot of Adept builds could take Sensitive System for 10 free Karma as well. 

The Missions team isn't out to re-balance the rules.  The FAQ is already huge, making a balance pass on dozens of qualities just for minor tweaks... eh.  As far as I'm aware they've only changed the cost on a single quality (prototype transhuman).

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Well like I said... realizing that a PC would be on the hook to pay off the Corp/Corp Limited SINs if a Criminal SIN is ever gained is actually "worth" the bonus karma, even if the GM never does (or never has opportunity to) enforce the roleplaying downside to those qualities.  15 or 25 free karma now at the cost of having to lose 30 or 50 Karma if you're ever busted...

[ShadowcatX]

Well the nature of Missions play is that the pre-generated runs won't really give the GM full flexibility to employ the "background hooks" on negative qualities like Corp/Corp Limited SINs.  But then again, I suppose whether those SINs should be legal for Missions play is really a question for the Missions forum

Still, on thinking about it I did come up with a pure rules mechanic impact of a Corp/Corp Limited SIN, and it's actually a potential doozy:

You gain a Criminal SIN if you're seriously caught/busted/etc.  In the case of SINless and National SINner Runners, it's no big deal.  Just gain the Criminal SIN and in the case of the latter, lose the pre-existing National SIN.  Now in the case of negative qualities being rendered moot in play, you're required to buy them off (see the example of a Blind runner getting Cybereyes implanted).  So in losing a National SIN to gain a Criminal SIN, you not only gain the "worse" quality but it costs you 10 karma to buy off the 5 Karma National SIN quality!  Now think of how bad it is for those spoiled Corp Kiddies playing in the shadows getting busted and slapped with a Criminal SIN...

Nothing in your post said you were asking for missions play. This is called moving the goal posts. Don't do it.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Nothing in your post said you were asking for missions play. This is called moving the goal posts. Don't do it.

And it's still not about Missions.  Don't get bent out of shape.

As pointed out upthread these qualities (like many others) are dependent on GM enforcement or else they're just free karma.  I was looking for opinions about how TO provide enforcement, and some helpful tips have been offered.  I also shared my belated observation that even if GM enforcement is absent, getting 15/25 bonus karma for the qualities is arguably balanced in of itself against the threat of having to pay it back double should the character ever gain the Criminal SIN during play.

[Senko]

Just speaking personally here but if the corporate sin was "balanced" by having the other players looking to find out/sell me out for a payday I'd start looking for another group to play in. I've been in those kind of situations from both sides where the party is trying to take advantage of one/a few members in it. No matter how well intentioned it usually devolved into an us vs them situation that was fun for no one.

The other problem with a lot of these responses is it assumes one specific situation you take corporate sin and then you are in X situation. Which really restricts the roleplay aspect there's a lot of different situations I can think of where a player may want a corporate SIN that don't involve their corporation hunting them down or the party trying to sell them out.

I agree it depends on GM enforcement but I really think it should be a case by case player and GM talk about their character background and what the GM expects for that kind of drawback to work out something that both sides are happy with. Of course I also think that criminal SIN should be the 25 point one with national at 5, limited corp at 10 and corp at 15.

[Sphinx]

Run Faster quotes Steve Long: "A disadvantage that isn't a disadvantage isn't worth any points." If you want the points from a negative quality, you have to actually play that negative quality. In the case of a corporate SIN, your name, official occupation, place of residence, and biometrics are all part of the global SIN registry. You have to maintain those. You have to pay "taxes" on your income (which, if your GM is friendly, includes the money launderer's cut to make your cash flow seem legitimate). If your DNA is found at a crime scene, then the authorities know exactly where to find you (although they may have to file for extradition before they can get to you). Your SIN status, if known, can and should be a modifier to social skill tests—a definite liability when dealing with SINless. You can't abandon your corporate life and live off the grid in the barrens and still benefit from this quality. It becomes a karma debt you'd have to pay off before anything else.

[Senko]

See that's where I disagree with you Sphinx. To beak up your post . . .

"A disadvantage that isn't a disadvantage isn't worth any points." If you want the points from a negative quality, you have to actually play that negative quality.

Yep no problems with that.

In the case of a corporate SIN, your name, official occupation, place of residence, and biometrics are all part of the global SIN registry.

Yes but this is also true for national, limited corp and criminal sins. Criminal Sins are especially bad because if the law enforcement searches "people with history of X" it can immediately pull you up as a suspect which wont happen with the other 3. Which is why I think that should be the 25 point quality.

You have to maintain those. You have to pay "taxes" on your income (which, if your GM is friendly, includes the money launderer's cut to make your cash flow seem legitimate).

Why? People nowaday's have a national ID and they dodge around the taxes and similar issues. Sure the shadowrun SIN is rather more all invasive but if you are getting paid on the credstick and living in the barrens off the grid there's no reason a corp sin should suddenly have alarm bells ringing (or any of the others for that matter). You're showing no income and you're living in a handy sewer makes sense. Now yes part of the negative quality is you need to pay taxes and if you're not doing that you aren't paying the cost of the negative quality but you could easily claim its "money you made begging" or "money you get for doing odd jobs mowing lawns or working as a freelance bodyguard."

If your DNA is found at a crime scene, then the authorities know exactly where to find you (although they may have to file for extradition before they can get to you).

Again same with all the other SINS and again something a criminal SIN should be a begger drawback for. Of course there is some debate whether the corp offers protection on the law enforcement finding you. That is do they pull up the details or just get a flashing "Contact Corp X for information on this person". and have to go through hopes to even find out who you are. This also probably applies for the better fake SINs only difference is when they find out Tani Maovich lives at 258 Evergreen Terrace you can just walk away because while you were Tani, Tani wasn't you.

Your SIN status, if known, can and should be a modifier to social skill tests—a definite liability when dealing with SINless.

This is a common view because it is mentioned in the quality but really I can't see why that should be the case both from a real world attitude perspective and more importantly a fun game one since it does lock off a lot of fun character ideas where this can still be a drawback. Even the quality say's most not all. Besides why should the SINless suddenly violently attack the person in tattered charity clothing who's been living in the same slums for years because they find out they've a corporate SIN but the high lifestyle, boot you out of the way because I'm an asshole who enjoys using SINless for target practice character gets a free pass because they're using a fake SIN?

You can't abandon your corporate life and live off the grid in the barrens and still benefit from this quality. It becomes a karma debt you'd have to pay off before anything else.

Again why? Sure Corp Sin's are technically the elite but there's plenty of reasons they could live off the grid in the barrens and STILL have it a drawback. These range from your living in the barrens because you found out something you shouldn't and the corp is moving heaven and earth to try and find you through to you are living there because of personal reasons but still being a good corp citizen and paying off your taxes while running the risk if you get ID'd law enforcement will know exactly who you really are and you'll need to get a fully body make over.

[Xenon]

Crunch-wise Corporate Limited SINs have the following disadvantages.

1. Characters that possess Corporate Limited SINs are believed to either know something valuable about the inner workings of the megacorporation or have a skill set rival megacorps would want; as such they are considered valid targets for extraction, even if they are no longer active with the corporation.

(This is a great background-hook that for example can force the runner on a mission where the payment is "not getting caught by another corporation" which might also involve moving to a new location etc. rather than "receiving piles of neoyen and loot").


2. Characters with the Corporate Limited SIN experience prejudice and hostility from those in the shadows who are SINless.

(This part is not optional. There is no "may" or "can".... characters with this NQ experience prejudice and hostility from SINless. Full stop. If you no longer want to experience prejudie and hostility from SINless you have to pay off the NQ with karma).

Also, see SR5 p. 141 Using Etiquette
You can use Etiquette to ease suspicions, so that people might trust you more than they would an outsider. Make an Etiquette + Charisma [Social] Test against the other person’s Perception + Charisma [Social] Opposed Test. If you get any net hits, they’ll accept you. If you get 3 or more net hits, their attitude toward you will improve, moving up a line on the “NPC’s attitude” section of the Social Modifiers table.


3. The character pays twenty percent of his gross income in taxes to his megacorporation.

(This part is also not optional. The character pays 20% of his income before lifestyle and other expenses to his megacorp... if it is easier you can think of it as bribes and maintenance costs to stay away from the corporation, but no matter how you look at it; this is a rule that comes along with the NQ. If the character no longer wish to lose 20% of his/her gross income then he/she first need to buy off the NQ with karma).


There are also some fluff that help the GM and the player get understanding of how SINless will react around the character:

The SINless believe the corporations deliberately keep them poor and powerless so they can be exploited.

The character with the Corporate Limited SIN may find himself being personally blamed for his corporation’s actions—protesting he has no real authority and no connection with the actions in question usually does little good. 

To the SINless and neo-anarchists the character with the Corporate Limited SIN has sold out and chosen a corrupt and oppressive system over his own people.



Crunch-wise Corporate SINs have the following disadvantages.

1. If the SINless discover the character’s Corporate Born SIN, reactions will range from deep suspicion to violent hostility; serious injury and death are real possibilities.

2. The character’s loyalty to his corporation is never questioned, which can be an insurmountable liability in a culture that works against the megacorps.

3. Those with Corporate Born SINs pay a tax of ten percent of their gross income to their corporation.


There are a couple of sources that might give you away:

He grew up in the corporation, his social involvement, education, and almost every aspect of his life was managed by the corporation.

(The way you move, talk and behave might give you away)


Then something happened. An unforgivably costly mistake, the machinations of a rival, a supervisor in need of a scapegoat—something pushed the character out of the corporation and into the cold and unforgiving shadows.

(The event that pushed you out might even have made it to the media and news outlets)


Files in the Global SIN Registry can confirm she has a valid SIN, but do not contain any additional information.

(Which mean it is not too hard to find out that the character have a valid SIN)


Also here there some fluff that help the GM and the player get understanding of the seriousness:

In the shadows a SIN that had been the key to opportunity is now a deadly liability.

Most in the shadows see the Corporate Born as the privileged few, the aristocrats in the armored limousines who look down on them, oppress them, exploit them and deny them their basic rights.

Would-be runners have been killed for holding Corporate Born SINs.