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Running Silent and Hide in the Matrix question

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kainite311

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« on: <04-15-18/0053:55> »
I have some questions and confusion over running silent and Hide in the Matrix...

1 - Do you have to be running silent in order to use Hide?

The reason I ask is that running silent seems to be a huge red flag for Patrol IC. Since they are periodically scanning (I would assume that would include a Matrix Perception to detect hidden icons/personas). I was using the scanning chart from Data Trails for interval. This seems rather counter to hiding as the search only requires 1 hit (unopposed at that) to detect there are hidden icons. While it (and others for that matter) still have to roll an opposed test to actually see you, seems to me that would auto trigger alerts for the host to signal the spider, maybe pre-emptive release other IC, while directing the Patrol to continuous scan for the hidden hacker. So while not seen yet, the system is on alert from detecting something running silent and your cover is already somewhat blown. Or am I totally reading the rules wrong on that...

2 -  When you have been spotted, but have either removed all marks from yourself, or have no marks, do you have to switch to running silent before using Hide matrix action? Or can hide work like in the meatworld - you don't have to 'vanish' from site, so much as 'hide' by disguising yourself as something that belongs or blend in...

3 - When running silent, if multiple things are using the device that is running silent (i.e. the decker and agent for instance), is the -2 penalty cumulative since 2 things are using the 'processing' power? The rules seem to lean towards no, as I understand them, but there is that fluff about the penalty due to the extra processing power required...

Thank you in advance :)

Kainite
Actually, in most Shadowrun games, they typically have a Lifestyle so they're either Murder Hobos (Street/Squatter Level) or Murder Renters (Low+ level)

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #1 on: <04-15-18/0123:03> »
I have some questions and confusion over running silent and Hide in the Matrix...

1 - Do you have to be running silent in order to use Hide?

The reason I ask is that running silent seems to be a huge red flag for Patrol IC. Since they are periodically scanning (I would assume that would include a Matrix Perception to detect hidden icons/personas). I was using the scanning chart from Data Trails for interval. This seems rather counter to hiding as the search only requires 1 hit (unopposed at that) to detect there are hidden icons. While it (and others for that matter) still have to roll an opposed test to actually see you, seems to me that would auto trigger alerts for the host to signal the spider, maybe pre-emptive release other IC, while directing the Patrol to continuous scan for the hidden hacker. So while not seen yet, the system is on alert from detecting something running silent and your cover is already somewhat blown. Or am I totally reading the rules wrong on that...

2 -  When you have been spotted, but have either removed all marks from yourself, or have no marks, do you have to switch to running silent before using Hide matrix action? Or can hide work like in the meatworld - you don't have to 'vanish' from site, so much as 'hide' by disguising yourself as something that belongs or blend in...

3 - When running silent, if multiple things are using the device that is running silent (i.e. the decker and agent for instance), is the -2 penalty cumulative since 2 things are using the 'processing' power? The rules seem to lean towards no, as I understand them, but there is that fluff about the penalty due to the extra processing power required...

Thank you in advance :)

1) The Hide Matrix Action (SR5 pg 240) doesn't say you have to be Running Silent to perform it... just that if successful you have to be re-acquired with a Matrix Perception test.  Keep in mind that if you're not Running Silent, then you'll automatically be re-acquired with no test necessary if they're within 100m or inside the same Host.  Of course spending a Complex Action to make the opposition spend a Complex Action could have some niche tactical advantages.

2) It's probably for the best to switch to Silent Running first if you weren't there already.  Switching to or from Silent Running is a Simple Action (SR5 pg 235) so you can't do it in the same turn as a Hide action because it requires a Complex Action.  So you have to switch in an Initiative Pass preceding or succeeding your Hide.  You almost assuredly want to do it before, but the way Initiative Passes work you may be able to pull off going Silent after your Hide if the icon you're hiding from is out of IPs.

3) I don't think they're cumulative... Going by the spirit of what's on SR5 pg 246: I think the Agent just shares your conditional modifiers.  I.E. you can't be Silent and have your Agent not Silent, and vice versa.  Although whether an Agent gets the +2 dice pool bonus for your hacker being in Hot Sim IS an excellent question that'd arise from this point of view...
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #2 on: <04-15-18/0127:38> »
...
The reason I ask is that running silent seems to be a huge red flag for Patrol IC. Since they are periodically scanning (I would assume that would include a Matrix Perception to detect hidden icons/personas). I was using the scanning chart from Data Trails for interval. This seems rather counter to hiding as the search only requires 1 hit (unopposed at that) to detect there are hidden icons. While it (and others for that matter) still have to roll an opposed test to actually see you, seems to me that would auto trigger alerts for the host to signal the spider, maybe pre-emptive release other IC, while directing the Patrol to continuous scan for the hidden hacker. So while not seen yet, the system is on alert from detecting something running silent and your cover is already somewhat blown. Or am I totally reading the rules wrong on that...


I'll recommend checking out this thread.  I have the same assumption as you about being caught Running Silent inside a Host being a Bad Thing.  I also wondered what a hacker had to fear in the first place from Patrol IC since you must have a mark on the Host to be inside it in the first place.. making you a "legit" user even if you placed the mark illegitimately...
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

kainite311

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« Reply #3 on: <04-15-18/0133:04> »
I have the same assumption as you about being caught Running Silent inside a Host being a Bad Thing.  I also wondered what a hacker had to fear in the first place from Patrol IC since you must have a mark on the Host to be inside it in the first place.. making you a "legit" user even if you placed the mark illegitimately...

Example of wanting to be 'invisible' even with a mark would be editing a file(that may trigger alert), or brute force attack on the Patrol IC. That way they system still has to waste time to find you. Also Hide doesn't really state if you just vanish, or can blend in, making a difference of looking like a legit user again basically...
Kainite
Actually, in most Shadowrun games, they typically have a Lifestyle so they're either Murder Hobos (Street/Squatter Level) or Murder Renters (Low+ level)

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #4 on: <04-15-18/0137:26> »
I have the same assumption as you about being caught Running Silent inside a Host being a Bad Thing.  I also wondered what a hacker had to fear in the first place from Patrol IC since you must have a mark on the Host to be inside it in the first place.. making you a "legit" user even if you placed the mark illegitimately...

Example of wanting to be 'invisible' even with a mark would be editing a file(that may trigger alert), or brute force attack on the Patrol IC. That way they system still has to waste time to find you.

Attempting to Hide is a waste of time if they have a Mark on you. It's part of the rules governing the Hide Matrix Action:

Quote from: SR5, Hide Matrix Action, pg 240
You can’t
hide from an icon that has a mark on you, so you’ll need
to clear those before you can try this action.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

kainite311

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« Reply #5 on: <04-15-18/0140:00> »
I have the same assumption as you about being caught Running Silent inside a Host being a Bad Thing.  I also wondered what a hacker had to fear in the first place from Patrol IC since you must have a mark on the Host to be inside it in the first place.. making you a "legit" user even if you placed the mark illegitimately...

Example of wanting to be 'invisible' even with a mark would be editing a file(that may trigger alert), or brute force attack on the Patrol IC. That way they system still has to waste time to find you.

Attempting to Hide is a waste of time if they have a Mark on you. It's part of the rules governing the Hide Matrix Action:

Quote from: SR5, Hide Matrix Action, pg 240
You can’t
hide from an icon that has a mark on you, so you’ll need
to clear those before you can try this action.

That's why I specifically said no marks or erased all marks in initial post :)
Kainite
Actually, in most Shadowrun games, they typically have a Lifestyle so they're either Murder Hobos (Street/Squatter Level) or Murder Renters (Low+ level)

Xenon

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« Reply #6 on: <04-17-18/1417:39> »
1 - Do you have to be running silent in order to use Hide?

No, you are not forced to run silent, but in most cases it is A Good Idea(tm).

If you are in a Host (or physically within 100 meters if out on the grid) when you execute Hide then you will automatically be spotted if you are not running silent.

The reason I ask...

While inside a Host you normally run silent before you take an attack action. If you successfully land your attack while not running silent then the target will automatically spot you. If you are hiding you might buy yourself some extra time before you are spotted.

2 -  When you have been spotted ... do you have to switch to running silent before using Hide matrix action?

No, you are not forced to run silent, but in most cases it is A Good Idea(tm).

If you are in a Host (or physically within 100 meters if out on the grid) when you execute Hide then you will automatically be spotted if you are not running silent.


3 - When running silent, if multiple things are using the device that is running silent...

If you set your device (in this case a cyberdeck) to silent running then you are reducing the traffic to and from your device.


I also wondered what a hacker had to fear in the first place from Patrol IC ...

Patrol IC is constantly scanning for suspicious activity. One of the things it can find out with a targetted Matrix Perception test is: The last Matrix action an icon performed, and when. If your last Matrix action was an illegal matrix action......

Marcus

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« Reply #7 on: <04-17-18/1731:19> »
SSDR After two thread on this I still feel like I'm failing to understand your primary concern?

Are you worried Deckers can be rendered ineffective?

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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #8 on: <04-17-18/1839:08> »
I don't *have* a concern in this thread.. I wasn't the OP I was answering the OP :) 

I even linked the other/similar thread to this one upthread where I was the OP on a similar question.
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kainite311

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« Reply #9 on: <04-18-18/0012:04> »
Thank you everyone for your answers. Sorry, but I guess I am still confused, because I am assuming the Patrol IC scan chart (Data Trails p86) is how often the IC will check for running silent. As I understand it, you can't make the opposed test (Matrix Perception vs Log+Sleaze) without knowing that there is something running silent to specifically look for it? So in my mind the IC scans for running silent, rolls 1 hit, detects something(s) running silent and now is on alert to find that thing. From that point on, all it does is Spot Hidden opposed check every round until it finds it or fails to detect anything running silent every 5 tries or so. Or can you actually just do a Matrix perception check directly to spot vs the sleaze/logic and that is where I take three left turns... My way sucks, as it gives away the hacker and alerts the system that something may be fishy with simply 1 success and to look into it. Is that RAW? Or am I grossly misunderstanding that you have to know something is running silent first, before you can attempt to spot it as far as the rules appear to be to me... Also, why couldn't Matrix Hide just make you blend in with the other icons (similar to sneak in the 'real' world) and return you to a legitimate user (assuming you still have a mark on the Host) in the eyes of the Patrol IC, therefor negating the need to return to running silent (until the next time the Patrol IC scan comes up). It seems the assumption is a vanishing act back into running silent, but have not really seen any rules stating it that way.

It may seem like a moot point, as in 2d6 turns (say Host rating 7) the IC is gonna scan you and the jug is up if you didn't go back to silent, but in the meantime as long as you were doing non Attack/Sleaze things (like Searching, or other Data Processing Matrix Actions), you no longer have the -2 penalty and able to have your deck scores in a more Data Processing friendly way is the crux of what I am trying to establish...

Sorry for my confusion. :(
« Last Edit: <04-18-18/0024:12> by kainite311 »
Kainite
Actually, in most Shadowrun games, they typically have a Lifestyle so they're either Murder Hobos (Street/Squatter Level) or Murder Renters (Low+ level)

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #10 on: <04-18-18/0130:25> »
Well the rules don't spell out tactics for IC because that's too constraining for the GM.. a module might say what tactics the NPC security guards will use, but you wouldn't want the actual rules to say how security guards behave (except in very very broad strokes).  Same thing for cybernetic security in the form of IC.  Its exact actions on how it attempts to find intruders should be contextual rather than rules-dictated.

So the chart in DT.  It makes more sense to me to look at it as the chart used for when the PC is not running silent.  E.G. he's got his mark on the host and counting on the security to just assume he's yet another legit user because that's what he appears to be.  As discussed in the thread similar to this one the actual information the Patrol IC gathers on its perception test is what was the matrix action you last performed.  If it was an illegal action... then whoops!  Alarm bells sound.

The chart makes less sense to me in a context where the PC is running silent.  It only takes 1 hit to learn that there is indeed a silent running icon inside the host, which will be the very first time the Patrol IC makes the perception test (Any Host worth giving stats to will have ratings sufficient to Buy at least 1 hit for the Patrol IC).  At that point, it doesn't make sense for the Patrol IC to only search for hidden icons every X turns as per the chart suggestions.  So again making the meatbody security NPC analogue... use GM discretion to decide what happens when the Patrol IC realizes there's a hacker afoot but hasn't yet "locked on" and spotted it.  My assumption is it'd attempt to find that hidden icon for some number of turns in a row, and then if it hasn't located the hacker it sends an alert to the metahuman security spider to check out a possible anomaly, at which point the Patrol IC starts an entirely new cycle of scanning.  Of course just as NPC security guards may assume an alert for attention from a remote sensor may just be the wind again, a security spider just might in your judgement also cancel a request for investigation from Patrol IC if it's been glitchy lately.

As for the Matrix Hide action working like Physical World Stealth: yeah, can't work the same way because the matrix doesn't work the same way as the real world.  Icons have sculpting rules, and Personae just don't look like Files or Devices.  You can't hide amongst them (although with the Wrapper program running, you can attempt a Matrix version of Disguise I suppose).  As for "mind wiping" the Patrol IC into forgetting that you're the enemy... I'd highly suggest reading the thread I linked, especially firebug's comments.  It doesn't appear that it is (or should be) possible as a rule of thumb.  If you're dead set on the idea being possible, I suppose what the hacker would have to do is 1) find the Host's security logs, 2) crack the file protection on those logs, and then 3) edit the logs from a few seconds ago to omit ever having recognized your icon as a threat.
« Last Edit: <04-18-18/0135:49> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Xenon

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« Reply #11 on: <04-18-18/1623:17> »
Sorry for my confusion...

Don't be. That is why this forum is for :-)

Well the rules don't spell out tactics for IC because that's too constraining for the GM.

^ Pretty much this


As I see it I have two choices when entering a Host;

Either

1)  the first thing I do when I enter a Host is to run Change Icon to change the appearance of my Icon to blend in with the iconography sculpted within the host. By doing this I will have a bigger dice pool while at the same time not sticking out as long as I keep mostly to legal actions (such as Matrix Search). I will run my (legal) Data Processing actions (such as Matrix Search and Matrix Perception) without running silent. I will also run my (illegal) Sleaze actions without running silent. I like to think of Sleaze actions as Social Engineering; you walk straight up to an icon and try to "talk" your way pass him. If you are successful then he will not notice. If you fail then you will be taken red handed (no point in stealth anyway). Running in plain sight have the advantage of not getting a -2 dice pool modifier for running silent. For reference Data Trail have this pass under "Hosts" on p. 168 Changing a host’s iconography is a tactic that some owners employ to catch unauthorized users unaware. If the theme of the host switches from feudal Japan to a baseball park and your persona is stuck wearing samurai armor in center field—well, that’s probably going to draw some attention.

Every 2D6 combat turns (or so) the Patrol IC check my last used matrix action. As long as it is a legal Data Processing action then everything is fine. If it happen to be an illegal Sleaze action then things will escalate very quickly. Since I am not running silent patrol IC only need one net hit (this is the drawback).

or

2) the first thing I do when I enter a Host is to run silent. By doing this I might avoid getting detected by Patrol IC and I can hopefully execute illegal sleaze actions for a longer period of time before getting noticed.

Every 2D6 combat turns (or so) the Patrol IC try to spot me. As I am running silent it will probably not like what hit see if it manage to spot me. On the plus side, since I am running silent Patrol IC need to beat me in an opposed Matrix Perception test. Until then I am a Ghost in the Machine. For reference Data Trail have a long story under "A lesson in Host Invasion" on p. 87 ...and, obviously, she runs silent... At this point, the gamemaster rolls the number of Combat Turns until the Patrol IC fires off a scan in her direction. This is a Rating 8 Host, so the gamemaster rolls 2D6 (as per the Patrol IC sidebar chart) and rolls a 10. That means Zoe has some time before that pesky Patrol IC tries to spot her...Zoe and her team continue like this, and all looks pretty well until the ten-Combat-Turn grace period from the Patrol IC expires. So the gamemaster rolls the host’s 16 dice and asks Nora to roll her Logic + Sleaze. Unfortunately, the IC scores 3 net hits and sees Zoe. The IC doesn’t like what it sees, so it sets off the alarm. As things are about to get very bad very quickly, the gamemaster asks Nora to roll her Initiative, while he does the same for the Probe IC the host just launched.


No matter if I go in with Change Icon or Running Silent I will always try to go silent before committing to an Attack action; Before I am about to commit to an Attack action against the Host (such as cracking the protection of a pay data file) then I will go Silent. On a successful Attack action the Host (and with it the Patrol IC) will be alerted. Host will start to launch IC but the new IC can't do anything until I am spotted. The Patrol IC will run opposed matrix perception tests every action from now on until I am spotted. Cracking the file open so I can copy it and disconnect from the Host is now a race against the clock before I am spotted by Patrol IC and my avatar is marked by Probe IC and shredded by Killer IC. Or worse. For reference Data Trails have this pass under "Matrix Combat 101" on p. 180: Remember a successful attack action alerts your target to your presence, but not your precise location. If you’re running silent, using Brute Force won’t automatically reveal your location (while a failed Sleaze roll will), perhaps giving you a small window of opportunity.

Even if it is possible to disconnect and then log back in the Host could still remain in High Alert for several minutes (or even hours), looking for further intruders.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #12 on: <04-18-18/1634:22> »
Quote from: Xenon's quote from Data Trails example
... At this point, the gamemaster rolls the number of Combat Turns until the Patrol IC fires off a scan in her direction. This is a Rating 8 Host, so the gamemaster rolls 2D6 (as per the Patrol IC sidebar chart) and rolls a 10. That means Zoe has some time before that pesky Patrol IC tries to spot her...Zoe and her team continue like this, and all looks pretty well until the ten-Combat-Turn grace period from the Patrol IC expires. So the gamemaster rolls the host’s 16 dice and asks Nora to roll her Logic + Sleaze. Unfortunately, the IC scores 3 net hits and sees Zoe. The IC doesn’t like what it sees, so it sets off the alarm. As things are about to get very bad very quickly, the gamemaster asks Nora to roll her Initiative, while he does the same for the Probe IC the host just launched.[/i]...

I do like the cut of your jib, sir.  I do want to point out however for the OP's benefit that the rules for spotting silent-running icons are stupid.  In the example cited, it's ignoring RAW and going from no suspicions to seeing the silent running icon with no 2nd matrix perception check necessary.  And in all honesty, probably "rightly so" in this context even if it's not exactly RAW.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

kainite311

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« Reply #13 on: <04-18-18/1906:13> »
Honestly I rather it (inside a Host with a patrol IC) just simply be an opposed Matrix perception test and if hacker wins the IC goes about it's business. It's ridiculous that detecting hidden icons is so easy. And who in their right min does a check, detects hidden things, and doesn't pour a ridiculous amount of resources into finding it, and at the same time going Full Defense. You know, good old player paranoia. I was trying to limit it to inside a Host because there will probably only be the hacker running silent that the Host doesn't know about and not having to worry about the 500 wanna be hacker/street sams on the street running silent. But it does apply on the regular grids (Non-Host), except it's a little easier to mitigate because the odds of something running silent around a hacker is probably high (his own team, that shifty sprite in the corner, rats hiding their digital cheese...). Simply being able to know something is about, can ruin half the ambush or more. The ability to start using active defenses/interrupts is game changer most times. That's why I was wondering about Matrix Hide. If your just blending in, looking like you belong (and therefor not required to run silent), when you suddenly attack, you have a greater chance to ambush vs super simple detect silent running and going full on defensive commando paranoia. I mean, you might suspect that hobo begging for change to be an assassin from John Wick, but your utterly surprised that Pickle Rick jumped out of the sewer in a commando rat suit and lays it on you... :)
« Last Edit: <04-18-18/1908:08> by kainite311 »
Kainite
Actually, in most Shadowrun games, they typically have a Lifestyle so they're either Murder Hobos (Street/Squatter Level) or Murder Renters (Low+ level)

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #14 on: <04-18-18/1915:34> »
When I'm playing a Decker, I have an Agent running on my 'deck who's sole job is to scan every one of my and my runners' pieces of gear one after the other.  Ghetto Patrol IC.  One hit is enough to turn up "marks on the device", and even a low rating Agent is competent enough to buy that 1 necessary hit per Matrix Perception test per gun/piece of cyberware/etc. Agents don't get tired or have lapses in attention span, and can scan an item very roughly every second or so (2-3 Passes per 3 seconds...) So if some hostile Hacker begins scoring marks on any of my or my team's gear, we'll find out about it in less than a dozen seconds or so.

Anyway... keep in mind that there's no hard and fast "this is how often Patrol IC will scan you and this is what it's looking for"...  Use that vagueness in your favor rather than trying to codify it away.  If the players are having a hard time you can throw the Hacker a bone by throwing poofballs with your Patrol IC.  Keep from straitjacketing yourself so you can crank up the pressure/difficulty if the team's been having too easy a time instead, and you feel like sweating the Hacker's PC is the right way to put the fear of GOD in them (literally, in this case!).

Also found this gem that might interest you:
Quote from: SR5 Matrix Actions, pg 237
If you want to try something
that isn’t handled by these rules, like tweaking your icon
to imitate a fashion trend or creating a distracting VR display
out of datastreams
, your gamemaster will let you
know what kind of test you should attempt.
(bolded for emphasis)

So that's your golden ticket to allow players to do things like "sneak among the icons" if that strikes your fancy to differentiate it from the Hide Matrix Action.
« Last Edit: <04-18-18/1918:19> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.