[Hobbes]

Problems:
You can't give Attack or Sleaze Dongles to a RCC.
You can't duplicate the RCC's functionality with Autosofts on a Cyberdeck.
You can't share cyberprograms between Cyberdecks and RCCs.
Even at Resources A, you can't have a good Cyberdeck, a good RCC, AND the vehicles/drones to make Rigging relevant.
You CAN get away with a RCC and a Commlink w Dongle, but getting one up to credible value ends up costing what a Cyberdeck would have anyway.
While Smoke and Mirrors exists to loophole your way past 0 Sleaze on a RCC, there's no comparable way to get around 0 Attack.
If you don't have viable Attack/Sleaze values, you have to pre-Edge every hacking test.

Vulcan Liegelord RCC, Modification Add Attribute (Sleaze) gets that to 2, Smoke and Mirrors, Stealth programs gets it to 8, Overclocker drags it to 9.  Attack 0, still stopped cold by Encryption/Data Bombs.  For Attack actions, Datajack +, Erika Cyberdeck, Low End Custom Cyberdeck, or Evotech Himsu with a low end Attack Dongle will work. But that's an Additional 45K Nuyen by the time it's all said and done.  You can get it under 30k if you go with the Himsu and a rating 1 Attack Dongle. 

Alternatively, go with just a Cyberdeck and skip the RCC.  RCC does 3 things, lets you run the Swarm Program, lets you Share Autosofts, lets you hop around between vehicles and Drones fast.  If you go with a Vehicle and one good drone, the Cyberdeck works fine.  Realistic Features 4 I Doll with Gecko grips in Sleeping Tiger Armor, Taser in one arm, Machine Pistol in the other.  Would be nice if either the FAQ or Errata team would clarify Anthrodrones wearing armor.

And there is nothing stopping you from having a cheap Flyspy or Kanmushi Recon drone.  Drones only use Autosofts if you're not controlling them directly, so do your recon pass with the disposable drone.  Hop in the I Doll and jog along with the team.  Optional go limp noodle in something like a Horseman or other vehicle that fits through doors. 

It's a workable concept, but you've got to compromise somewhere.  Either drop a bunch of Nuyen on a Cyberdeck, or skip Drone Swarms. 

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

It's a workable concept, but you've got to compromise somewhere.  Either drop a bunch of Nuyen on a Cyberdeck, or skip Drone Swarms.

I was convinced it'd work for a very long time. I'm just simply not convinced anymore.  Part of the problem is neither transporting nor decking is really relevant in combat.  (despite how much I want combat decking to be a thing). And while there are indeed ways to loophole a Sleaze value (which I'll still be exploiting so that my drones can credibly run silent), you just need a cyberdeck for Attack.  Sleazing your way into a host doesn't do any good if the data you want is encrypted.  Nor can you Nerdrage and fling Data Spikes without a good Attack (or an inexhaustible amount of Edge...)

If I keep the car and lose the truck, drones, autosofts, and RCC I can replace them all with a Cyberdeck. (I'd have to swap skill and attribute priorities as well to cover the necessary hacking skills).  I'm looking at what's more useful to a team: a driver and a decker, or a driver, drone rigger with a skillsoft (well, autosoft) for team hole-plugging?  I suppose the answer of course is whether or not the team already has a decker... but what's pushing it the other way for me is how much  more useful drones are in combat than decking.

Drones can run their own programs though that makes each drone more expensive

Wouldnt drone autosofts be limited by their pilot rating?

No, that's the beauty of a RCC.  It's largely the reason a RCC exists. You ignore the # and rating cap for a drone's pilot program when it comes to Autosofts.  Plus I don't have to buy an Autosoft per drone; they all just use what I have running on the RCC.

[Ajax]

The vehicle-specialist “Wheelman” is an important archetype in a lot of films that inspire Shadowrun, but it just isn’t an archetype that sees much use during actual play... Kind of a shame, because I do love a good car chase. I’m not even that much of a “car guy,” but I still get kind of aroused watching Bullitt’s famous car chase.

I suspect the reason is two-fold:

First, gamers and game designers have been trying to steadily eliminate (or at least, minimize) the “solo mini-game” scenario where one PC and the GM play out a scene and everyone else goes for pizza. Early editions of Shadowrun were kind of infamous for the jacked in Decker and astrally projecting Mage basically needing separate game sessions. When the Rigger is driving the car, there’s not much for the rest of the ‘runners to do during a car chase... Lean out the window and shoot? Slap a trauma patch on the injured guy? Watch ‘Neil the Orc Barbarian’ re-runs in AR?

Second, and I realize upfront this might sound odd, but Riggers are almost too good at doing what they do. Go watch any of the famous car chases, car races, or stunt driving sequences in cinema: Bullitt, Baby Driver, The Road Warrior, The Italian Job, all 24,601 installments of The Fast and the Furious. The thing they have in common is that it’s all about ups and downs, gaining a temporary advantage here, overcoming a temporary setback there, jockeying for position... Heck the phrase “jockeying for position” literally comes from racing! But, go look at the stats for even an average fresh-out-of-CharGen newbie Rigger. Now, go look at the stats for the average Lone Star/Knight Errant beat cop in a squad car. It’s not even close. The Rigger absolutely outclasses his opposition from Day Zero... and once the Karma and Nuyen start rolling in, it just gets worse.

The only way to save the “Wheelman” Rigger as an archetype is to see some major changes in the game’s assumptions on what he is supposed to be capable of and expected to do.

[Hobbes]

I am the Firewall, Tag, and Calibration are solid Matrix actions for Combat.  No where near as good as 200,000 Nuyen of killer Drone Squads, but nothing really is.

[Ghost Rigger]

Second, and I realize upfront this might sound odd, but Riggers are almost too good at doing what they do. Go watch any of the famous car chases, car races, or stunt driving sequences in cinema: Bullitt, Baby Driver, The Road Warrior, The Italian Job, all 24,601 installments of The Fast and the Furious. The thing they have in common is that it’s all about ups and downs, gaining a temporary advantage here, overcoming a temporary setback there, jockeying for position... Heck the phrase “jockeying for position” literally comes from racing! But, go look at the stats for even an average fresh-out-of-CharGen newbie Rigger. Now, go look at the stats for the average Lone Star/Knight Errant beat cop in a squad car. It’s not even close. The Rigger absolutely outclasses his opposition from Day Zero... and once the Karma and Nuyen start rolling in, it just gets worse.

Enemy riggers are a good hard counter for that though.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

...
The only way to save the “Wheelman” Rigger as an archetype is to see some major changes in the game’s assumptions on what he is supposed to be capable of and expected to do.

I don't disagree with what you said.

On top of that, you have the SRM-specific phenomenon of GMs being encouraged to just hand-waive any liabilities involved with the team lacking a core competency.  "Oh, noone has a car?  That's fine, Neo-Tokyo is an ultra modern place and you can ride public transportation/your lifestyle covers calling a Johnny Cab/you can just use a Spirit's movement power to outrun traffic anyway".

if there's no penalty for NOT having a driver, there's no need for a driver.

[Ajax]

Enemy riggers are a good hard counter for that though.

This leads to a different problem, where the verisimilitude of the setting starts to get stretched too thin. When every street ganger and mafia goon in Metropolis is packing a kryptonite laser, Superman’s invulnerability is no longer a superpower it’s a joke. A Rigger is supposed to be a fairly rare and elite specialist, as the Street Samurai is to the average Security Goon or the Decker is to the average IT Guy. If every other facility the ‘runners infiltrated had a Rigger in a pursuit car waiting to give chase, well, that’s just silly.

I think the main changes necessary would be to reduce the bonuses a Rigger gets when driving. Not elongating them, just paring them down a little to give “mundanes” a better chance. The chase rules also need to be adjusted to allow the outnumbering side a better advantage. Again, look at cinematic car chases: Hero McCool is always a better driver than the Faceless Goons and Hero McCool is always in a better car... But Hero McCool is also trying to outrun and outwit dozens of baddies.

One Street Samurai versus one CorpSec Goon is no contest. One Street Sam versus four goons? He might have to work a bit. One Sam versus a dozen goons and they’re being led by a Red Samurai? Things just got risky.

I think our hypothetical “Wheelman” Rigger should feel the same way. Out gunning or out maneuvering a single pursuer should be trivial. Having to deal with the two or three escort cars guarding the big rig with the cargo container the ‘runners want? That should be a bit of effort, but doable. Evading and eluding the entire squad car compliment of the North Bellevue K-E Precinct when they’ve been joined by a K-E Pursuit Specialist Rigger and a couple of “Bear in the Air” Yellowjackets? Drek just got real.

And, of course, more of the official modules need to include a scene or two where the “Wheelman” gets to strut his stuff. Not every adventure, sure, but just as their are some modules that let the magicians shine and others that let the hackers have their time in the spotlight, we need to give the “Wheelman” some love.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

There's also the issue of Spirits trivializing everything.  We need to escape from these mooks?  Fine, Angel Summoner will have a spirit make them crash... because last time Angel Summoner just had a spirit materialize inside the vehicle and wipe the driver out, time for a Spirit to win in a new and different way this chase?

Oh sorry Mr Rigger, I forgot you were here...

The one thing Spirits can't do better than your specialized mundane is Decking, which I suppose is a point in favor of dropping the drones/etc and going back to Rigger-Decker hybrid, lol.

[Hobbes]

I think the main changes necessary would be to reduce the bonuses a Rigger gets when driving. Not elongating them, just paring them down a little to give “mundanes” a better chance. The chase rules also need to be adjusted to allow the outnumbering side a better advantage. Again, look at cinematic car chases: Hero McCool is always a better driver than the Faceless Goons and Hero McCool is always in a better car... But Hero McCool is also trying to outrun and outwit dozens of baddies.

Multiple vehicles in pursuit could use Assist tests, or someone using Leadership, just to keep the dice pools close.  You don't need a Rigger on site, a remote Rigger with Pursuit Drones works just as well.  Or a Spirit, Riggers hate Spirits.  Or hack the Riggers ride and start tracing. 

[Ajax]

Especially given the way they allow the Movement power to affect vehicles. BMX Bandit’s incredible skills with BMX riding seem to pale in comparison when Angel Summoner’s summoned angels can enchant any bike riden by anyone into a super-cycle.

I recently played through the “Neo-Tokyo Drift” mission, we had an Adept in the group that was a highly specialized wheelman... But it was the summoned Spirit using Movement on the car that basically did 90% of the work for us. We could have put anyone in the driver’s seat and won that race...

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

As for spirits materializing inside my rigger's vehicle... I'm planning on using "specialized equipment" to install a fire extinguisher system inside the cabin... spraying DMSO + Blight instead of fire suppressant.  Frag off, spirit. Witness what 4 sword wielding drones will do to you without your ItnW.

[Fedifensor]

The one thing Spirits can't do better than your specialized mundane is Decking, which I suppose is a point in favor of dropping the drones/etc and going back to Rigger-Decker hybrid, lol.

Depends.  Are Sprites considered "Techno-spirits"?  Though if you have a technomancer, he's basically filling the same role as a decker - not as good as other characters in meatspace, but great in the Matrix.


The group I was running Neo-Tokyo for has a technomancer who is focused on rigging (he was the driver in Neo-Tokyo Drift).  I recently showed him Kill Code, and he's about to become a Machinist.  So, while you may not be able to have everything at character creation, it is possible to fill the decker and rigger roles on a team with a technomancer.

[Ajax]

Depends.  Are Sprites considered "Techno-spirits"?  Though if you have a technomancer, he's basically filling the same role as a decker - not as good as other characters in meatspace, but great in the Matrix.

Although Sprites are distinct from Spirits from an "in universe" sense, from a "game play" standpoint they serve the same function. So whilst our characters see a huge difference between Spirit and Sprite (or even an Agent or Pilot Program) there isn't that much of a difference for us, the players, sitting around the table. Spend some resources (karma and/or cash) and roll some dice. Presto, you've got an NPC "pet" that will do things for you...

It's like the Adept's Improved Reflexes Power and the Street Samurai's Wired Reflexes Cyberware. They are different, but they aren't exactly distinct.

[Tarislar]

Can we just get that living moss crap on the outside of buildings to grow on my Bulldog?

Make it so they can't get inside 

[Ajax]

Can we just get that living moss crap on the outside of buildings to grow on my Bulldog?