[ZeroSum]

SR2, p. 240, under laser sights:  "Such sights may not be used with any kind of smartlink system."

Nice, thanks. Missed that bit. Good to see those things haven't changed much over the decades.

[sigfriedmcwild]

Thanks for the extra info on the older editions!

[Xenon]

Not sure if you meant to come off as condescending as you did, but thanks for the clarification!

Sorry that was not my intention.

It seem as if the smartgun systems in SR5 and SR6 are quite similar.

So yes, there is no doubt that 6e's Smartlink is pretty much the worst one was have seen to date

You are quite clear in your posts that you don't like SR5 (and that is fine, everyone can not like everything), but could you please elaborate what you specifically think is bad about the smartgun system (game mechanic wise) in 6th edition compared to for example how smartgun systems worked in 5th edition - because as i read it they are (game mechanic wise) quite similar.

[Marcus]

So yes, there is no doubt that 6e's Smartlink is pretty much the worst one was have seen to date

You are quite clear in your posts that you don't like SR6 (and that is fine, everyone can not like everything), but could you please elaborate what you specifically think is bad about the smartgun system (game mechanic wise) in 6th edition compared to for example how smartgun systems worked in 5th edition - because as i read it they are (game mechanic wise) quite similar.

Absolutely, the primary failing of the 6e conversion of weapons is the AR/DR system, I don't necessarily think the concept is bad, simplification could be fine. But under the current implementation the system's total disconnect from dice rolls makes AR v DR meaningless (As well as opening 6e up to armor is meaningless argument). Where players should be encouraged to invest in raising AR and DR by some kind of roll interface, that functionality doesn't exist. Where Edge is intended to be that, it has to many arbitrary points of failure in the process to accept that's its a valid interface (the 4 point range, the gain limit restrictions, a variety strange misc gear mods, qualities etc). Damage value and pools are the only meaningful values, as they are the only ones that actually interface with combat results. As such the 6e smartlink gives you AR primarily which as I explained isn't a meaningful value so it's a waste of resource to use it. (The same argument applies to ADPS as well.) The bonus to hit die, and action economy mods, are easier to solve with other options, and as such those resources should be saved for those options. If an AR/DR interface were added, this issue would require re-examination, but as I don't foresee any such changes occurring beyond perhaps a house rule it's not something I'm concerned with.

[CigarSmoker]

[...]
As such the 6e smartlink [...] The bonus to hit die, and action economy mods, are easier to solve with other options, [...]

Where would that bonus to hit die else come from ?

[Marcus]

[...]
As such the 6e smartlink [...] The bonus to hit die, and action economy mods, are easier to solve with other options, [...]

Where would that bonus to hit die else come from ?

I thought it under the wireless bonus. But I read equipment section quickly and I may not be recalling it correctly. Ether way it doesn't change my argument.

[CigarSmoker]

[...]
As such the 6e smartlink [...] The bonus to hit die, and action economy mods, are easier to solve with other options, [...]

Where would that bonus to hit die else come from ?

I thought it under the wireless bonus. But I read equipment section quickly and I may not be recalling it correctly. Ether way it doesn't change my argument.

I didnt question the existence of the wireless Bonus Die. I wonder why you wrote that the Bonus is pointless. Since its no augmentation but a wireless Bonus. There is no other way to get that Bonus. Unless you have read some new Errata before its released of whatever.

[Marcus]

[...]
As such the 6e smartlink [...] The bonus to hit die, and action economy mods, are easier to solve with other options, [...]

Where would that bonus to hit die else come from ?

I thought it under the wireless bonus. But I read equipment section quickly and I may not be recalling it correctly. Ether way it doesn't change my argument.

I didnt question the existence of the wireless Bonus Die. I wonder why you wrote that the Bonus is pointless. Since its no augmentation but a wireless Bonus. There is no other way to get that Bonus. Unless you have read some new Errata before its released of whatever.

I don’t think I’m following what you are taking issue with in my argument. Can you explain your point more clearly? Are you addressing My views on AR/DR? Are you saying the wireless die makes the device worth the resources cost?

[CigarSmoker]

Are you saying the wireless die makes the device worth the resources cost?

exactly. Its about 2500Y and you get one extra dice, if your device is Running Silent behind the Groups Hacker Deck its a low risk too.

[Xenon]

Absolutely, the primary failing of the 6e conversion of weapons is the AR/DR system...

Why all this text about AR/DR? Yes, a smartgun system in SR6 also increase AR by 2 (which is very similar to how a smartgun system in SR5 increased Accuracy by 2), but this is hardly the main reason why you get a smartgun system.....?

In SR5 [wireless] smartgun system increased dice pool
In SR6 [wireless] smartgun system increase dice pool

[Marcus]

Absolutely, the primary failing of the 6e conversion of weapons is the AR/DR system...

Why all this text about AR/DR? Yes, a smartgun system in SR6 also increase AR by 2 (which is very similar to how a smartgun system in SR5 increased Accuracy by 2), but this is hardly the main reason why you get a smartgun system.....?

In SR5 [wireless] smartgun system increased dice pool
In SR6 [wireless] smartgun system increase dice pool

Accuracy has a meaningfully interface with the roll in question where AR/DR does not. In short Accuracy does something, keeping more success is meaningful to the roll and as such is worth the investment, the a +2 to hit is a decent bonus and in conjunction with it's accuracy bonus, together they make it worth the essence cost and the risk of running around with wireless up. Sadly the nether are true for 6e it's primary function a +2 AR is useless and it's wireless one die isn't a large enough bonus justify the risk or the costs. Sure if you like the 6e smartlink you should feel free to pay that for a single die bonus that leave yourself open to attack. But the cost and risk out ways the a single die bonus as I see it. There will always be more ware, and new ways to get bonuses, better save the resources and wait for something less useless. The cyberware or combat book I'm sure will have new and better options.

Now I certainly will agree the 5e Smartlink isn't as good as the 3e smartlink. But the 5e smartlink is still several times more useful then 6e smartlink. Thus 6e is the worst one yet.

Xenon, you asked me to "elaborate what you specifically think is bad about the smartgun system (game mechanic wise) in 6th edition compared to for example how smartgun systems worked in 5th edition" and I have done so. I hope they errata in a way to make AR/DR useful. AR/DR not be meaningful is major failing of 6e. Making AR/DR effect pools could over come the useless armor flaw, with another small change it also fix the str being meaningless on melee flaw as well. Another point to be considered is could re-open the tank Archetype, something I think 6e was foolish to close the door on. Now I have suggested a solution. (IE Make the net difference on the AR v DR comparison a bonus or a penalty to the related attack pool. Your going to have to do that math anyways, so taking it a step further isn't going to increase complexity.) I don't think they will take it of course, but I have done my part on trying to get it fixed.

[penllawen]

Why all this text about AR/DR? Yes, a smartgun system in SR6 also increase AR by 2 (which is very similar to how a smartgun system in SR5 increased Accuracy by 2), but this is hardly the main reason why you get a smartgun system.....?

How are AR/DR and Accuracy “very similar”? They’re entirely different mechanics with entirely different outcomes. In particular because there are a wide range of scenarios where +2 AR won’t affect the Edge calculation, whereas +2 to the dice test limit always confers some bonus.

In SR5 [wireless] smartgun system increased dice pool
In SR6 [wireless] smartgun system increase dice pool

The first bonus is +2 dice, the second bonus is +1 die. Hence Marcus saying the 6e bonus is less. Seems unarguably true to me.

[Xenon]

Xenon, you asked me to "elaborate what you specifically think is bad about the smartgun system (game mechanic wise) in 6th edition compared to for example how smartgun systems worked in 5th edition" and I have done so.

The reason why I asked was because I personally find them mechanically very similar (as the primary reason why you use one is because it act as a positive dice pool modifier when you fire your smartgun.... I thought that you maybe missed that and that you perhaps compared the positive dice pool modifier it got in earlier edition with just the AR increase in SR6, which would properly explain your frustration).

(I maybe not agree to all what you said, but I think it is OK that we have different opinions on the matter - at least now I understand better what you meant - thank you for elaborating).

[Hobbes]

Why all this text about AR/DR? Yes, a smartgun system in SR6 also increase AR by 2 (which is very similar to how a smartgun system in SR5 increased Accuracy by 2), but this is hardly the main reason why you get a smartgun system.....?

How are AR/DR and Accuracy “very similar”? They’re entirely different mechanics with entirely different outcomes. In particular because there are a wide range of scenarios where +2 AR won’t affect the Edge calculation, whereas +2 to the dice test limit always confers some bonus.

In SR5 [wireless] smartgun system increased dice pool
In SR6 [wireless] smartgun system increase dice pool

The first bonus is +2 dice, the second bonus is +1 die. Hence Marcus saying the 6e bonus is less. Seems unarguably true to me.

6e Wireless vulnerability to hacking is unarguably less than 5e.  Matrix Perception Action is a one minute base time in 6e unless you have Resonance or a Cyberdeck.  So unless they've got someone with a 30K Nuyen cyberdeck watching the door, you can walk right on in with your Smartlink on in 6E.  That was not a given in 5e.

And if you use the RAI for PAN protection, your team's Decker has a much easier time taking care of the team's Matrix crap in 6e.

Personally I think being able to ignore/hand off all the Matrix vulnerabilities to the decker is worth the 1 dice.   YMMV though.

[Xenon]

Where are you reading about the 1 minute test?


As I read it;

To find a specific icon that is running silent is typically a matrix perception (electronics + intuition) major action, but if you are using a cyberdeck (or a cyberjack or a living persona) then it is only a minor action.

Tracing a specific icon you already have admin access on is also an electronics + intuition major action.

Searching databases for a particular subject is instead an extended electronics + intuition test with a 10 minute interval.