Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: dougansf on <06-08-20/1602:55>
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Can someone clarify the intent behind Neijia technique found in Firing Squad pg 105?
You may make unarmed attacks against astral entities as though you were Awakened with a Damage Value of (WILL/2 + net hits). This technique does not give you the ability to perceive astrally or bond weapon foci.
I think it's intended to allow the user to treat unarmed as magic weapons for purposes of overcoming manifested spirit immunity.
It reads like it allows the user to attack unmanifested spirits, which mundanes can't detect.
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I wish I knew.
Way I read it: it only works on purely astral targets (which you can't see) and manifested entities (which can't hurt you).
Note that there's a world of difference between manifested and materialized. And whatever the intent may be, there's nothing saying it bypasses ItNW on materialized spirits.
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Deepweed and Astral Gateways?
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The key words there are "astral entities" which I take to mean any being from the astral planes...
Which Spirits of all types qualify as. In short, it always you to attack spirits and deal damage, bypassing their ITNW,
But thats my reading.
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Well, there's still nothing saying "the damage counts as magical" nor do you actually perform an Astral Combat attack. And as a mundane, you wouldn't like your AR of 0 + N/A = 0, anyway if it WERE an Astral Combat attack.
Sure you can punch the materialized earth spirit, at DV WIL/2. But you're vastly better off just not using the technique if it IS materialized. Presumably you'll do more damage w/o it.
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The key words there are "astral entities" which I take to mean any being from the astral planes...
Which Spirits of all types qualify as. In short, it always you to attack spirits and deal damage, bypassing their ITNW,
But thats my reading.
My reading as well. Although, AR 0 DV of 2 is likely an inconsequential attack vs any Spirit with enough ITNW that your guns can't hurt it.
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Deepweed and Astral Gateways?
Deepweed doesn't help mundanes see the Astral.
Deepweed plus Neijia is a good combo to save Adepts some PP though.
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Well, there's still nothing saying "the damage counts as magical" nor do you actually perform an Astral Combat attack. And as a mundane, you wouldn't like your AR of 0 + N/A = 0, anyway if it WERE an Astral Combat attack.
Sure you can punch the materialized earth spirit, at DV WIL/2. But you're vastly better off just not using the technique if it IS materialized. Presumably you'll do more damage w/o it.
The "As though you were awakened" means that its magical... that's what "awakened" means :D
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Well, there's still nothing saying "the damage counts as magical" nor do you actually perform an Astral Combat attack. And as a mundane, you wouldn't like your AR of 0 + N/A = 0, anyway if it WERE an Astral Combat attack.
Sure you can punch the materialized earth spirit, at DV WIL/2. But you're vastly better off just not using the technique if it IS materialized. Presumably you'll do more damage w/o it.
The "As though you were awakened" means that its magical... that's what "awakened" means :D
As though != exactly the same.
if it WERE an Astral Combat attack (and therefore "counting as magic" because it IS magic) you wouldn't use your usual AR. Because Astral Combat uses a special AR.
Now, I'm granting that the intent may very well prove that yes that it is intended to allow you to execute a *modified* Astral Combat attack with a new DV and a new AR. But it absolutely doesn't SAY this.
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looks like you have some Errata to do...
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Indeed :)
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Follow up question: can Neijia be combined with other martial art techniques, namely to increase DV?
Neijia + Flying Kick = DV of (WIL/2)+3
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Flying Kick increases your Unarmed DV. Neijia doesn't use your Unarmed DV.
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looks like you have some Errata to do...
Given that Neijia exist is this even meaningful?
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looks like you have some Errata to do...
Given that Neijia exist is this even meaningful?
I don't understand what you mean here.
I'd say the only flaw with neijia is it shouldn't be a martial art but the default, if there is a martial art around it it should improve the default. Attacks of will go back to 1e.
That being said, it works less well in 6e with static unarmed damage. In 1-3e(i don't remember how 4e/5e did it. It was a semi valid choice to go with but if you were buff enough a straight attack and just trying to overpower IRNW might be better.
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looks like you have some Errata to do...
Given that Neijia exist is this even meaningful?
I don't understand what you mean here.
I'd say the only flaw with neijia is it shouldn't be a martial art but the default, if there is a martial art around it it should improve the default. Attacks of will go back to 1e.
That being said, it works less well in 6e with static unarmed damage. In 1-3e(i don't remember how 4e/5e did it. It was a semi valid choice to go with but if you were buff enough a straight attack and just trying to overpower IRNW might be better.
I'll rephrase, is there even a point to errating the Astral AR issue in light of the existence Neijia? AR is so meaningless in the first place. I didn't see a point in adding to the massive list of needed changes when I don't see the question being of any real meaning.
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looks like you have some Errata to do...
Given that Neijia exist is this even meaningful?
I don't understand what you mean here.
I'd say the only flaw with neijia is it shouldn't be a martial art but the default, if there is a martial art around it it should improve the default. Attacks of will go back to 1e.
That being said, it works less well in 6e with static unarmed damage. In 1-3e(i don't remember how 4e/5e did it. It was a semi valid choice to go with but if you were buff enough a straight attack and just trying to overpower IRNW might be better.
I'll rephrase, is there even a point to errating the Astral AR issue in light of the existence Neijia? AR is so meaningless in the first place. I didn't see a point in adding to the massive list of needed changes when I don't see the question being of any real meaning.
Given how valuable Edge is, AR is kind of a big deal.
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2 DV attack vs a Spirit with a high enough force that your normal 6 to 8 DV (with Narrow Burst and Explosive Ammo) attacks are bouncing? Mostly pointless.
If you've got a really high Unarmed Combat pool but don't have Killing Hands or a Weapon Foci.... sure, could be worth the 5 Karma to tickle an occasional Spirit. Very Niche.
Personally I was fine with the 0 Attack Value. Leaves Spirit thumping mostly the domain of Adepts with Killing Hands and Weapon Foci, but still gives Mundanes an option. A mechanically poor option, but an option to ignore ItNW.
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That's all fair, and maybe it could/should be errata'd that way.
Kind of like the argument against blight though: it'd be better if ItNW wasn't a problem in the first place. Giving mundanes an option to hurt spirits ought to be addressed at the spirit end, not the mundane end.
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My own preference for Spirits ItNW would be give them all Vulnerabilities or Allergies. Knowledge and Preparation pay!
Fire beats Grass, Water beats Fire, Rock beats Water... or wait, was that the other way around... and what beats Psy... is that even a type... and what the hell is Psyduck....
Anyway, give mundanes something to bypass ItNW that isn't great, but okay. Neijia kind of does that but not really. It does for Sammies with high enough Unarmed combat pools that they'll pick up some net hits to raise the DV and chip away at a Spirit. But a burst fire weapon with explosive rounds would also chip away at most Spirits.
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looks like you have some Errata to do...
Given that Neijia exist is this even meaningful?
I don't understand what you mean here.
I'd say the only flaw with neijia is it shouldn't be a martial art but the default, if there is a martial art around it it should improve the default. Attacks of will go back to 1e.
That being said, it works less well in 6e with static unarmed damage. In 1-3e(i don't remember how 4e/5e did it. It was a semi valid choice to go with but if you were buff enough a straight attack and just trying to overpower IRNW might be better.
I'll rephrase, is there even a point to errating the Astral AR issue in light of the existence Neijia? AR is so meaningless in the first place. I didn't see a point in adding to the massive list of needed changes when I don't see the question being of any real meaning.
Given how valuable Edge is, AR is kind of a big deal.
LOL
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My own preference for Spirits ItNW would be give them all Vulnerabilities or Allergies. Knowledge and Preparation pay!
Fire beats Grass, Water beats Fire, Rock beats Water... or wait, was that the other way around... and what beats Psy... is that even a type... and what the hell is Psyduck....
Anyway, give mundanes something to bypass ItNW that isn't great, but okay. Neijia kind of does that but not really. It does for Sammies with high enough Unarmed combat pools that they'll pick up some net hits to raise the DV and chip away at a Spirit. But a burst fire weapon with explosive rounds would also chip away at most Spirits.
Never been a fan of the golf bag of tools method.
I'd honestly rather we worry less about a spirits defense and more about their output. If spirits acted as PR1 mooks I wouldn't care that they were also virtually indestructible. The bigger problem IMO has always been a summonable creature is almost as deadly if not more deadly than your dedicated street sam,with a large bag of trick.(at least since 4e, I can't remember exactly how they played out in 1-3e) Being impossible to kill was just gravy on top of that. Being super hard to kill by mundane means is a staple of the setting, I'd like to keep that. Being super deadly is the issue I'd like to change. I'd of ditched force, have the ability to summon lesser spirits, spirits and greater spirits. With PR ranges outside of something like 0-2, or 1-3. Give them set stats. Don't allow the summoner to cherry pick optional powers. Your spirit of that type and power level has what it has. Make the player have to purchase spirit types maybe a few free types based on your magic priority, bring back old school spirits. Focus on elemental spirits for combat, city spirits, spirits of hearth etc for more utility.