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Limitations of emotitoys

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Kontact

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« Reply #15 on: <01-29-11/1528:53> »
Since it's a DP modifier, there's no reason that it cannot grant it's full rating 6 to your social tests, unhindered by the 1.5 times skill rating limit to skill modifiers.

I was specifically talking about the Teamwork test rules.
Because that's what an independent assessment is.  Teamwork.

At least, that's my house rule.


The only other place where a chepo autosoft can make decisions that don't over-ride your own decisons is with First Aid, and that test needs it.  +6 dice is only going to take you to the starting threshold of (2) 62% of the time.
« Last Edit: <01-29-11/1530:50> by Kontact »

Chaemera

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« Reply #16 on: <01-29-11/1805:53> »
I was specifically talking about the Teamwork test rules.
Because that's what an independent assessment is.  Teamwork.

Understood, Kontact, I was only trying to address Max's question about how the common perception on the use of emotitoys gets established.

If the sensor rules had any coherency in the first place, sensor-softs would ruin that.  Luckily the sensor rules are already garbage so there's nothing left workable to ruin.

They seem fairly coherent to me...

Device has Sensor Rating X (for example, the Morgan Cutlass has a Sensor rating of 3), this number is used in any/all tests that call for Skill/Autosoft + Sensor.

The size of the sensor package defines how far out the sensors can perceive (Signal Rating) and how many types of sensor it can carry (Capacity). The specific sensors function the same as a metahuman or critter's senses, they are the ways in which data can be observed.

A metahuman can use the Perception skill to see, hear, feel, smell, taste. A drone who's sensor package includes a camera and microphone can use its Sensor rating to see and hear.

Yes, the sensor software does make this more complicated, but you can take heart that your GM will rule most sensors to be "personal electronics" with a Device Rating of 3, so without program options, you can only run 3 of them at any one time on any one sensor, and they only work up to rating 3.
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Bradd

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« Reply #17 on: <01-29-11/2011:59> »
Emotitoys have a pilot, which means they have a Device Rating, as well. Therefore, they have a signal, and can be slaved to your commlink, with their image feed (complete with empathy software analyses) fed to your AR contact lenses. At this point, you now get the dice pool bonus to all social skills where the sensors of the emotitoy can capture the target.

Yeah, I see where folks are coming from there. However, emotitoys cost a lot less than their components – a trideocam alone costs as much as the toy. The manufacturers are not using fully-functional sensors and software, and the only user interface is the toy's behavior. The internal empathy software isn't designed for human use, so it may not have a comprehensible interface. At least in the basic models, a lot of the internals are probably hardwired instead of wireless.

There's also potential abuse of emotitoys as espionage devices. While that was just an urban myth for Furbies, emotitoy manufacturers may want to avoid that kind of negative publicity. (Then again, they might design the things so that they can spy, but only if you have the right authorization!)

It might be a different story for the high-end, mini-drone models. Those would need a fully-functional Pilot and sensors to operate. You might actually get a useful feed out of them (although you might need to decrypt it first, to defeat trade secret protections). I'm not as worried about those balance-wise, however, as they're much closer to the cost of their component parts.

Kontact

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« Reply #18 on: <01-31-11/0142:07> »
They seem fairly coherent to me...

And then he read the Signature rules and realized that a consumer-grade vehicle's autopilot runs over one in six pedestrians...  which could be completely fixed by the manufacturer spending 500 yen on a better camera system and ripping out the atmosphere sensor.  Damned atmosphere sensor must have killed more people than Stalin...

Yes, the sensor software does make this more complicated, but you can take heart that your GM will rule most sensors to be "personal electronics" with a Device Rating of 3, so without program options, you can only run 3 of them at any one time on any one sensor, and they only work up to rating 3.

Problem there is that sensors don't exist in a vacuum.  You want a hidden camera, you've got to pin it to an RFID tag, which then becomes "your device". There are larger sensor banks as well, but my point is that a camera isn't an object so much as an "upgrade" for a package.  But, if you consider it a 3/3 node, I've got to wonder why I bother buying a commlink.. 

It's like sensor softs are perfectly situated at the corner of the two most messed up sections of SR4, the sensor rules and the matrix rules.
« Last Edit: <01-31-11/0145:18> by Kontact »

Mäx

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« Reply #19 on: <01-31-11/0225:16> »
Yeah this is one of the thinks i have never understood.
Where the frak does everyone get the idea that their character gets +6 to her social skill because her toy drone has an empathy software 6?

I think it comes from this:

Quote from:  Arsenal, pg. 60, Empathy
Empathy software can be discreetly used in real time during negotiations or social interactions, adding its rating as a dice pool bonus to the character's Social skill tests.

Emotitoys have a pilot, which means they have a Device Rating, as well. Therefore, they have a signal, and can be slaved to your commlink, with their image feed (complete with empathy software analyses) fed to your AR contact lenses. At this point, you now get the dice pool bonus to all social skills where the sensors of the emotitoy can capture the target.
No the toy get's that bonus, becouse thats what using the empathy software, not your character.
That's kinda like trying to claim you can get boosts to various dicepools of your character becouse a drone you own has an autosofts for using various skills.

This slaving the toy to your commlink and then getting a social skills boosting video feed from it has zero basis on the rules as far as i can tell.
"An it harm none, do what you will"

Bradd

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« Reply #20 on: <01-31-11/0257:48> »
@Mäx: Thanks, that's pretty much what I was trying to express, only more succinctly. I see that sort of autosoft/sensorsoft abuse as akin to running Playstation games on a laptop computer. A sufficiently skilled hacker could probably get it to work, but ultimately it's cheaper and more convenient to just buy the PC version of the game. In the case of emotitoys, it's like using a Nintendo DS as a coprocessor. :)

@Kontact: I don't know how sensors work well enough to understand the issues you're alluding to. Could you write up a summary of the problem and post it in a new thread?

Chaemera

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« Reply #21 on: <01-31-11/0650:26> »
They seem fairly coherent to me...

And then he read the Signature rules and realized that a consumer-grade vehicle's autopilot runs over one in six pedestrians...  which could be completely fixed by the manufacturer spending 500 yen on a better camera system and ripping out the atmosphere sensor.  Damned atmosphere sensor must have killed more people than Stalin...

*Reads over the Signature rules (presuming you refer to Sensor Tests on page 171 of SR4A, only place the "master index" refers to for signatures)*

That doesn't make them less coherent, just completely impractical. I'll agree that if you actually use the Signature modifiers, your going to kill a lot of people. Ignore the Signature modifiers (or adjust to suit, if that's your preference).

If you want to go a step further, use a little handwavium and treat vehicle sensors as operating under the same concepts as metahuman perception (if it's not hiding, you can detect it).

Yes, the sensor software does make this more complicated, but you can take heart that your GM will rule most sensors to be "personal electronics" with a Device Rating of 3, so without program options, you can only run 3 of them at any one time on any one sensor, and they only work up to rating 3.

Problem there is that sensors don't exist in a vacuum.  You want a hidden camera, you've got to pin it to an RFID tag, which then becomes "your device". There are larger sensor banks as well, but my point is that a camera isn't an object so much as an "upgrade" for a package.  But, if you consider it a 3/3 node, I've got to wonder why I bother buying a commlink.. 

Quote from:  SR4A, pg 221, Peripheral Devices
A peripheral device is a Matrix-capable appliance or piece of equip- ment that is wireless (or in some cases wired) but is not intended to be used for full-blown Matrix interfacing and processing. Security cameras, stoves, ear buds, medkits, firearms, children’s toys, doorbells, showers, biomonitors, cyberware, make-up kits, vehicles, coffee makers, store displays, electronic paper, drones, light switches, and many, many other items are all peripheral devices in Shadowrun.
Peripheral devices have no persona firmware, and are usually just smart enough to serve their function, although many have unused processing power. Such devices also often offer significant storage space in unused memory.

Reading through that, I get "all electronics are matrix capable" and "if it's a peripheral device, no personas can run on it". Which would be why you bother with that commlink.

Further reading:
Quote from:  SR4A, pg 222, Device Rating
There are far too many electronics in the world of Shadowrun for a gamemaster to keep track of their individual Matrix attributes. Instead, each device is simply given a Device rating. Unless it has been customized or changed in some way, assume that each of the Matrix attributes listed above for a particular device equals its Device rating.

Looking at the "Sample Devices Table" on the same page, "Standard Personal Electronics" (such as a hand held camera) are Device Rating 3, with no persona firmware, so they're a Response = System = Firewall = Signal 3 node that can't host a persona.

Sensor RFID tags are one option, though reading over their rules, they seem pretty limited, sending you an alert when whatever specified object/person/environment triggers a pre-set condition. Nothing about retrans of the actual data feed. Which fits RFID tag common sense.

On the other hand, you also have micro (note, it doesn't say "drone", it's not intended to, since you also have the micro camera, pg 332), hand-held, or mounted sensors. All of which are independent devices from Drones, vehicles, and RFID.

A micro sensor, such as the classic button-camera, is a Capacity 1, signal 2, DR 3 camera (Rating 1), per the above.

A security camera is a mounted sensor package (Capacity 5, Signal 4, DR 4). Since it has extra capacity, you can stick a MAD scanner, microphone, and maybe 1 or 2 other toys in there.

The advantage to the RFID route is that it will alert you when something important happens, whereas you have to monitor the micro-camera. After all, no pilot (unless you purchase one separately) means no dog-brain to inform you of something important happening.
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Maelstrom

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« Reply #22 on: <01-31-11/1040:58> »
Also, SR4A page 130:

Cumulative positive Social Modifiers may not exceed the character's combined natural Attribute + Skill Ratings.


The changling elf face I created started with 9 charisma and 4 influence.

Glamor (+3) Kinesics R3, and Empathy Software R5 (due to commlink Response 5 upgrade availability) gives him +11 to dice pool for most Social Tests, for a total of 24, but as always it depends on whether the GM will allow it.
« Last Edit: <01-31-11/1048:14> by Maelstrom »

Mäx

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« Reply #23 on: <01-31-11/1044:58> »
Also, SR4A page 130:

Cumulative positive Social Modifiers may not exceed the character's combined natural Attribute + Skill Ratings.
Social modifiers being the stuff in the table on the next page.
"An it harm none, do what you will"

Maelstrom

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« Reply #24 on: <01-31-11/1047:24> »
Social modifiers being the stuff in the table on the next page.

Depends on the game, I suppose.  We've always treated that as the maximum for social tests, regardless of where the modifier comes from.

Mäx

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« Reply #25 on: <01-31-11/1051:11> »
Also, SR4A page 130:

Cumulative positive Social Modifiers may not exceed the character's combined natural Attribute + Skill Ratings.
Social modifiers being the stuff in the table on the next page.
Depends on the game, I suppose.  We've always treated that as the maximum for social tests, regardless of where the modifier comes from.
Well GM can ofcource always house rule thinks anyway he wants, but social modifiers is only used to descripe the stuff in that table.
There nothing there to success it's  a general term for all dicepool modifiers affecting social skills.
"An it harm none, do what you will"

Bradd

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« Reply #26 on: <01-31-11/1416:39> »
@Chaemera: Note also that peripheral nodes "are usually just smart enough to serve their function." It's not just that they lack personality capability, but they aren't general-purpose computers at all. Some may have spare processing power, but they don't generally have the capability to run arbitrary software, have ports to tap their sensors, and so forth. Thus, they may be "Matrix devices" but for the most part that's just flavor.

Wraith235

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« Reply #27 on: <01-31-11/1853:35> »
they way I run the empathy software is to plug a response 6 module into cyber eyes so that they can handle the program since the sotware requires a camera ... and the general rules of

Response limits system limits programs

I translate it to

Response limits camera rating which limits sensor software

I prefer to err on the side of caution on this

Bradd

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« Reply #28 on: <01-31-11/1906:28> »
Neat idea, Wraith235, but you "hook up a dedicated sensor system to a tailored software package," which sounds to me like you're running the software on a commlink, not on the sensor.

Wraith235

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« Reply #29 on: <01-31-11/1928:34> »
dedicated sensor package = cybereyes

and the Idea that almost all devices can run some form of programs

i.e clothes with holo programs and other things that arent comming to mind atm

but at the same time I also make sure to upgrade my commlink response to 6 as well so they can interpret it either way they want

if its in the eyes awesome

if the GM Rules it has to be run from the Commlink fine .... it takes 3 seconds to swap out a program (with only 1 IP) plenty of time to do that during a johnson meet

you tell your GM that youve upgraded the response on both your Comm and your eyes (16k) + the 3k for the software at 6 ... you wont get many arguments

Im one of those people that despises abusing rules so I double cover my a** and make the extra effort not to be screwed
« Last Edit: <01-31-11/1935:23> by Wraith235 »