[Hobbes]

What does a mage look like to you???

A Mage, is just a person. That can channel mana into spells and call forth spirits. End of list. They look like PEOPLE! There is no style of dress that ALL mages are forced to wear. They don't all wear pointy hats and carry wants you know

In my home game a Mage Licence is a giant pointy hat covered in stars....   

[Lormyr]

Just for the sake of playful disagreement:

I'd call it a dumpster fire, instead of bonkers

Jokes on you then, because I agree with your disagreement, so HA! :p

[Thy]

For instance, firearm don't shoot by themself. You have drones for that. A vehicle is able to operate itself. Hence resistance 15.

[Marcus]

Just for the sake of playful disagreement:

I'd call it a dumpster fire, instead of bonkers

Jokes on you then, because I agree with your disagreement, so HA! :p

Checkmate? O_o

[Michael Chandra]

A mage looks like any other person in the astral. You need to assense to figure out what they're like, and even then they can use Masking to disguise themselves. 'Oh hey they have 6 essence' is a good hint someone is magical, but not a perfect one.

Possession doesn't require the Summoner to touch the target, it requires the Spirit to, which means the Spirit has to sneak up on the target in the Astral. Augmented Maximum is described in the updated printing as "Whatever the source, or combination of sources, the maximum bonus for any attribute is always +4, unless specifically excepted." So if your Force 8 Spirit possesses someone who has 5( Agility and 4(6) Reaction, the net result is 5(9) Agility and 4( Reaction, not 5(12) and 4(10).

Words matter. Analyze Device mentions it's about operating a device. You wield a gun, you don't 'operate' it. Pulling a trigger isn't complicated, so a GM can easily argue against it or simply disallow it (at best allow it for remote-controlled weapon mounts), AND any non-throwback gun definitely is OR 15+. Trying to figure out how some weird control system works, sure. A medkit, sure. A complicated crane, sure. A Mechanic Shop? Sure, but you might need to cast on several devices at the same time, and hello Sustaining penalties! Vehicles: At best you can drive a car with it (again, OR 15+), but so can any Street Sam that spends 2 Karma on Pilot Ground Craft and uses their augmented Reaction to drive decently, and even then you don't get the Threshold Reduction that makes a Rigger's Control Rig frickin' A. And you don't operate a Deck, you simply persona through it, then its attributes are of help to you. The Matrix Actions are just you, they simply require the Matrix Attribute to be possible. So you don't get to be an improv Decker with Analyze Device, because the Deck isn't the one doing the hacking, you are.

Analyze Device and Diagnostics have been a point of contention for a while now, but they still use very specific words that do not equate 'get bonus dice on every action taken with whatever targeted device'. Restricting them based on the words used, isn't 'imposing one's preference', it's actually acknowledging that language matters. If language doesn't matter, then there's no point in discussing RAW to begin with, so miss me with that 'pet peeve'. You can debate when something counts as operating, but 'whatever usage' does not always equate operating.

[Thy]

I see your point, especially for weapon. But don't you use mainly your deck attribute to hack ? (that's what have always been told to me) So, for my point of view, it mean that it is the deck that does the action. You just command your deck. Just like I command My computer to "write" that message. It involve more process than I can control all by myself. I just ... operate it ? (again, I may be unable to see a meaning difference due to lack of skill in english, but it seems to  answer your argumentation).

If weapon are res 15, I need help to see what is not ? Cause since ou can hack from your toaster, and close include comlink and all sort of high tech, I'm not sure what could be above 3 (lets say 6) and not a 15 in the sixth world.
And if they have a 15 (or even 9), doesn't that mean that there is more to do with it than just press the trigger ? I think that could be a receivable argumentation on the analyze device spell. Still I'm not desperately trying to make it work. Quite the contrary.

And this is not the only spell that make you (and everyone else If you help them, but you can't know synergy before the first scenario) better at mostly everything.

Aren't foci dual natured ? If so, doesn't that mean they don't look like normal object, without any need for ascenssing as long as you're astrally perceiving ?

Also, a rigger implant could be needed, but I suspectg a rigger would still be better by being a mage. Everyone feel better by being a mage. I think this is an attack from Ars Magica. :p

[Lormyr]

Words matter. Analyze Device mentions it's about operating a device. You wield a gun, you don't 'operate' it. Pulling a trigger isn't complicated, so a GM can easily argue against it or simply disallow it (at best allow it for remote-controlled weapon mounts), AND any non-throwback gun definitely is OR 15+. Trying to figure out how some weird control system works, sure. A medkit, sure. A complicated crane, sure. A Mechanic Shop? Sure, but you might need to cast on several devices at the same time, and hello Sustaining penalties! Vehicles: At best you can drive a car with it (again, OR 15+), but so can any Street Sam that spends 2 Karma on Pilot Ground Craft and uses their augmented Reaction to drive decently, and even then you don't get the Threshold Reduction that makes a Rigger's Control Rig frickin' A. And you don't operate a Deck, you simply persona through it, then its attributes are of help to you. The Matrix Actions are just you, they simply require the Matrix Attribute to be possible. So you don't get to be an improv Decker with Analyze Device, because the Deck isn't the one doing the hacking, you are.

Analyze Device and Diagnostics have been a point of contention for a while now, but they still use very specific words that do not equate 'get bonus dice on every action taken with whatever targeted device'. Restricting them based on the words used, isn't 'imposing one's preference', it's actually acknowledging that language matters. If language doesn't matter, then there's no point in discussing RAW to begin with, so miss me with that 'pet peeve'. You can debate when something counts as operating, but 'whatever usage' does not always equate operating.

Dude, come on. The difference between using the verb wield or operate in the sense of using a device for its intended purpose is a nitpick at best. This is the english language - we have numerous different words for the same damn thing for very nearly everything, to the point of complete redundancy.

Now if the game had codified game terms, then that might support your preference here, but it doesn't.

Bottom line: if you use a device for it's designed purpose, the bonus applies. If you don't like that, I totally understand. I don't care for it either. But do not try to pass off your game balance preference as what the spell actually says, because all that is going to do is confuse people who don't know any better. You're smart enough to know you are selectively reading that spell, not honestly reading it.

[Reaver]

PAGE 295 CRB

object resistance table
INITIATIVE TYPE dice pool
Natural Objects 3
Trees, soil, unprocessed water, hand-carved wood, metal cold-worked by hand)

Manufactured Low-Tech Objects and Materials 6
Brick, leather, simple plastics

Manufactured High-Tech Objects and Materials 9
Advanced plastics, alloys, electronic equipment, sensors

Highly Processed Objects 15+
Computers, complex toxic wastes, drones, vehicles

That's the Object resistance table from the book. And I will admit it leaves a lot to be desired.

At the lowest end of the scale (3), you have the natural materials, worked with simple hand tools, or not chemically altered through refinement (hence the "cold worked" blurb)

At the next lowest (6), or have manufactured natural goods (like leather, brick), and simple plastics (think sandwich and garbage bags to plastic casings)

Near the top (9): you have highly processed items... Shatter/UV proof plastics, Stainless steel, circuit boards, and sensors. (a motion sensor on a light, Stainless steel, an Oscilloscope (rudimentary), A drill Press, a Door bell... )

And at the top  highly processed items (15+), such as computers, vehicles and drones.


And yes. MOST things in Shadowrun you are going to be in the 15+ range... Thanks to the mass produced, Consumer electronics era we are in.

In fact, I would argue that just about anything you buy from a store is going to be in that 15+ range because its all assembled by machines, from chemical compounds and alloys.. there is almost nothing "natural" left in anything you buy... There is no "soul" for the mana to connect to...


Now as to firearms in SR.. lets look at firearms.
Page 424 CRB

Firearms come with wireless capability and a digital
ammunition counter. Ammunition (p. 433) is sold separately.
All firearms have the following wireless bonuses
in addition to any wireless bonuses on each model:
Wireless: The weapon displays an ARO that tells you
ammo levels and ammo type loaded. If you have a DNI,
you get two additional benefits. First, ejecting a clip (for
weapons that have them) is a Free Action rather than a
Simple Action. Second, changing fire modes (on models
that have more than one) is a Free Action rather than
a Simple Action

Wireless bonus....  (I know I am going to sound like an asshole but...) I am unaware of any naturally occurring substance that transmits digital data in a readable pattern.
BUT, I do know that computers, and wifi modems can do this... SO they MUST be in a firearm,,,,

Digital Ammo Counter....  (And again... soundling like an asshole) well its DIGITAL... so that means electricity, and and Light Emitting Diodes arranged in a readable pattern, and that pattern has to be controlled by a (even a simple) I/O panel, AND hooked up to a sensor to count the ammo in the gun...

Then there is the fact that most (not all) firearms use caseless ammo, which means an electronic firing mechanism... Be that a battery powered system, or a Piezoelectric system (which probably wouldn't work for automatic fire)...

And that is not even looking that the actual material composition of the weapon. Most modern firearms are made from with stainless steel (for that silver finish) or high test steel.. which again involves smelting an adding in various other elements. (Iron is a natural substance.. STEEL is an alloy of Iron and Carbon)

so that is where you get your 15+ OR for firearms.. (and quite possibly anything and everything else you pick up in a store in Shadworun.._
 

[Thy]

(defense pool for
the clothing can be between 6 and 9, depending on the
complexity of the material and whether it interweaves
electronics into the threads)

Manufactured High-Tech Objects and Materials 9
Advanced plastics, alloys, electronic equipment, sensors

So everything you say about firearm (advanced plastic and alloy, electronic equipment, sensor ... ? ), for me, scream res 9. Not Res 15. Cloth and armor are also full of technoilogical crap. when you put on your fancy Mortimer suit, there is wireless, there is balistic materials, there is biomonitors, ruthenium, myomeric pocket, and all that sort of things. Still, this seem high tech for us living in 2020, but I guess it is still quite low tech for 2075. I guess millspec could receive a special treatment, but i'm not even sure of that.
Weapon are not full computer by themself. They have link, they have "simple" calculator. But except for very specific weapons, I guess you could not hack just using your weapon. or maybe with 1 in all your deck attributes. You could probably hack from your drone or from your car. Cars take decision by themself in that world, even without gridlink. And that's not called AI.

[Reaver]

(defense pool for
the clothing can be between 6 and 9, depending on the
complexity of the material and whether it interweaves
electronics into the threads)

Manufactured High-Tech Objects and Materials 9
Advanced plastics, alloys, electronic equipment, sensors

So everything you say about firearm (advanced plastic and alloy, electronic equipment, sensor ... ? ), for me, scream res 9. Not Res 15. Cloth and armor are also full of technoilogical crap. when you put on your fancy Mortimer suit, there is wireless, there is balistic materials, there is biomonitors, ruthenium, myomeric pocket, and all that sort of things. Still, this seem high tech for us living in 2020, but I guess it is still quite low tech for 2075. I guess millspec could receive a special treatment, but i'm not even sure of that.
Weapon are not full computer by themself. They have link, they have "simple" calculator. But except for very specific weapons, I guess you could not hack just using your weapon. or maybe with 1 in all your deck attributes. You could probably hack from your drone or from your car. Cars take decision by themself in that world, even without gridlink. And that's not called AI.

Quote where you are getting that from.

FASHION
(ENVIRONMENTAL, AREA)
Type: P Range: T
Duration: P Drain: F – 1
This spell instantly tailors clothing, transforming garments
into any fashion the caster wishes. The net hits
over the clothing’s object resistance (defense pool for
the clothing can be between 6 and 9, depending on the
complexity of the material and whether it interweaves
electronics into the threads) measure the degree of
style in the tailoring. The spell cannot change clothing’s
protective value, only its cut, color, pattern, and fit. The
weight of the clothing does not change, and it must cover
approximately the same amount of area (for example,
a jumpsuit can’t be converted into a bikini). The caster
must touch the clothing.
>> STREET GRIMOIRE <<
<< EXPANDED GRIMOIRE 115
FASHION HITS TABLE
NET HITS RESULT
1
The tint of the color can change (e.g., dark blue to light blue,
but not blue to green); minor adjustments such as mending
bullet holes can also be performed
2
Adjustments to the fit of the clothing can be made, but nothing
drastic about the nature of the clothes (for example, pants are
still pants). Color can change slightly (e.g., blue to green or
purple, but not red).
3
Full spectrum of color can be manipulated. Simple geometric
patterns and designs can be added, but nothing as elaborate
as corporate logos or name tags. Modifications such as the
addition or removal of pockets or pants to a skirt can be done.
Repairs and cleaning of the clothing can also be performed.
4+
Clothing can be changed with enough specificity to mimic a
uniform, provided enough material is available. Color changes
can help mimic missing accessories such as buttons, labels,
badges, ribbons, etc. These changes, however, are only
convincing at a distance if the physical accessories are not
present. The closer a target gets to the subject, the more
likely they will notice the actual accessories are missing (a
gamemaster would call for a Perception Test to see if the
per- son notices). Patterns and designs on clothing can be as
intricate as the magician desires

You are quoting a spell, with specific results... And yes I agree, in this case explicitly.

Specific trumps General...

But it doesn't change general rules for general items, under general conditions.

and remember the table is guide. Your Gm is free to do with it as he pleases.

[Thy]

Your Gm is free to do with it as he pleases.

First of all, that rule should always be forgotten on a discussion about rules. It is always very true. But if you don't need the rules,  why get the books ? The rules should be helping, not putting doubt and everything. GM can rule that  troll start with all attribute at 18 and elves can't go above 3. This is not what is written in the book and nobody will suppose that you play like that, and the player neither if the GM don't say it first. Rules are not needed to play. You can chose to use it or not. But asking GM will not tell me what is written, neither than what that probably supposed to mean. This will tell me what he will use in this particular campaign. Important, but of no indication for the next one, for example.
As a GM I usually tell my player that if I tell them "no because ..." this is open to interpretation and they can counter argument, show me other rules for my better understanding (or their) etc. If i just say "no", just deal with it, and let's play.

GM can correct all the semingly error of all books. If he want to. But 1) he don't know everything 2) he does not have any opinion on everything, which mean you obviously should discuss with him.

 That table guive only guidelines. So I'm ready to discuss how resistant is everything. I gave you my argument. I'm ok to receive counter argumenbtation, but, please, don't "Gm-choice" me. It feel like the Godwin point of rpg rules discussion.

For my interpretation, the 6-9 res for clothe is just an indication, not a rule modification. It is the only indication concerning any device out of the rather unprecise resistance table. Nowhere it is written weapon =15, and nowhere else it is written clothe =9 (nor 15). It is the closest thing we have of rules for resistance in anything I have read. And I have to admit, I'm biased because it confirm the way I feel about it. 15 should not be for everything, and 9 cover quite a lot of things, simply with "electronic equipment"

In fact, just reading, 6 and 9 example are quite vaste, but 15 is quite precise, 15 is "Computers, complex toxic wastes, drones, vehicles". Weapon are nothing of those per se. Of course those are examples. But the other examples include lot and lot of things. Not that last category.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Well, with regards to the various tiers on the Object Resistance mechanic:

You have to do one of two things:

1) between all the tiers, every possible thing is listed

2) each tier has a categorical, "things like this" bucket that a GM can use reason/common sense to find the best fit for a device that wasn't explicitly given as a categorical example.


1 is obviously impossible.  2 necessarily invokes "GM discretion".  If two players disagree over whether the smartlink processors make a gun count as "electronics" and therefore 9 dice on the OR or "a computer" and therefore 15 dice on the OR, the opinion held by the GM trumps the opinion held by the non-GM.

But for whatever it's worth, take a look at the 6e version of how the OR tiers are worded:

object resistance table
TYPE OF OBJECT RATING
Natural objects 3
Trees, rocks, soil, wood, metal cold-worked by hand, unprocessed water
Manufactured low-tech
objects and materials
6
Brick, glass, leather, paper, simple plastics
Manufactured high-tech
objects and materials
9
Advanced plastics, alloys, concrete, electronic equipment, firearms,
sensors
Highly processed objects 15+
Commlinks, cyberdecks, drones, vehicles, complex toxic waste, Cheez-Bitz

IMO helps clear up the "electronics vs computers" issue, at least.

[penllawen]

You have to do one of two things:

1) between all the tiers, every possible thing is listed

2) each tier has a categorical, "things like this" bucket that a GM can use reason/common sense to find the best fit for a device that wasn't explicitly given as a categorical example.

1 is obviously impossible.  2 necessarily invokes "GM discretion".  If two players disagree over whether the smartlink processors make a gun count as "electronics" and therefore 9 dice on the OR or "a computer" and therefore 15 dice on the OR, the opinion held by the GM trumps the opinion held by the non-GM.

Obviously the book can't list everything, that's ludicrous. But given that it's clearly ambiguous how complicated 2080 guns are -- and therefore where they land on this table -- and given mages are often going to want to cast spells on opponent's weapons, it's an oversight that it wasn't included.

Catalyst appears to agree with me, BTW, because it added an explicit callout for "firearms" to the object resistant table in 6e.

I will reformat and put 5e and 6e side by side for comparison:

Natural objects (3)
5e: Trees, soil, unprocessed water, hand-carved wood, metal cold-worked by hand
6e: Trees, rocks, soil, wood, metal cold-worked by hand, unprocessed water

Manufactured low-tech objects and materials (6)
5e: Brick, leather, simple plastics
6e: Brick, glass, leather, paper, simple plastics

Manufactured high-tech objects and materials (9)
5e: Advanced plastics, alloys, electronic equipment, sensors
6e: Advanced plastics, alloys, concrete, electronic equipment, firearms, sensors

Highly processed objects (15+)
5e: Computers, complex toxic wastes, drones, vehicles
6e: Commlinks, cyberdecks, drones, vehicles, complex toxic waste, Cheez-Bitz[/quote]

IMO helps clear up the "electronics vs computers" issue, at least.

Electronics are explicitly 9 and computers are explicitly 15+ in both 5e and 6e. What does 6e clear up?

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

IMO helps clear up the "electronics vs computers" issue, at least.

Electronics are explicitly 9 and computers are explicitly 15+ in both 5e and 6e. What does 6e clear up?

That if it's an electronic device that does computations, but is not something similar to a commlink or cyberdeck, it's "electronic and therefore OR 9" instead of "it computes, and is therefore a computer, and therefore OR 15"

RCC isn't listed.  Is it 9 or 15?  I think most people would reasonably say it's akin to a commlink or cyberdeck, and therefore 15.
A wageslave's desktop workstation/terminal isn't listed. Is it 9 or 15?  I think most people would reasonably say it's akin to a commlink or cyberdeck, and therefore 15.
Goggles with Smartlink enhancement isn't listed. Is it 9 or 15?  I think most people would reasonably say it's not akin to a commlink or cyberdeck, and therefore this electronic device is 9.
The oscilloscope in my engineering toolkit isn't listed. Is it 9 or 15? I think most people would reasonably say it's not akin to a commlink or cyberdeck, and therefore this electronic device is 9.

etc.

[ikarinokami]

I don't know if analyze device is that bad, i think people just don't enforce the object resistance requirement. the only things the spell makes you good at operating most of the time is using very simple things like a steel sword. shadowrun decks and guns are so complex that if you are getting massive net hits, then your magic + skill + foci is high enough such that literally any spell you cast is going to be a problem for your opposition.