Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Thy on <06-08-20/1505:44>
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Hello Guys
I'm starting in the world of shdowrun 5. Already played a little to SR4 (Mostly a total amnesic and a Kabbal minotaure running in Military grade armor possessed by an air spirit. subbtle).
I now run a Dryad face/mage. And I feel like I don't play in the same court as the other players. My team is made of a panther shapeshifter/sniper, an Oni Adept which can kill most anything dead in one hit (and very few other things) be it techno/flesh/magical, a chaos mage edgemancer without spirit, a medic with few flying drones and a detective.
I'm suppose to be the face, and im' really not a great mage. As spell I have only 5, 2 being ritual (Watcher and Homonculus), 2 being mostly cosmetic (Fashion, and shape(plasteel), which I took to make homonculus and body for my spirits, but I never do, cause I already feel too powerful. I think this spell can have a lot of utility, but for now I didi not needed it) and Trid Phantasm (which seems to be the... "well i don't know what illusion spell to take, let's take them all" spell).
Still I have spirit, I have the spirit whisperer quality and a possession tradition (Vaudou). Out of chargen, I have a drain stat of 16 (10 charisma + 6 will), and thinking to ask the medic to make me a few drugs to push it to 20.
As you can see, if i can take a few drain, i did not really tried to optimise my spell list.
During fight, I just stay rear and give advice more than orders (using my face leadership). Usually one time, sometimes two cause no increased reflex... Still, with my spirits (I usually have only one in fight, not to monopolise talk time on roll20) that i almost always cast at the starting of the day/night, I can quite rule the day. With possession, I can take control of one of the most threatening oponent (try to resist 14 dice of control, edged if needed), which become then even more threatening with +4 to most every physical stat (which seems enough to make an ok fighter out of a full 1 attribute). Adding a few power, you can have quite a nasty surprise (the most obvious being energy aura, for an unarmed 11 damage +base force of the posessed thing).
Not being really there during the fight, I don't put mighself in a lot of risk (especially with the half dozen of watcher avoiding most surprises). But If things goes sideways, my posessed social armor put me at an ok 22 (without any augmentation, or spell), which should help me not dying at first glance.
Out of fight, without any investment, I have access to a lot of trick (magical finger, influence, not ever glitching, cloak, etc) which allow me to do many thing. Spirit being able to control lot of things also help (hey, who need autosoft, when one of your friend can just BE the car. with a +4 acceleration and a movement power, maybe ...). for perception I have always few spirit watching both physical and astreal plan (14 seems quite ok when you roll more than one time ...).
I play nice. I don't use actively more than one spirit (remember that 10 charisma ...), don't bring homonculus, neither than critters (yes I got animal handling too... that was my first choice to have something for my spirits to possess if nothing else)
I don't feel invincible, far from that. I just feel like to play with the other I have to play blindfolded and handtied.
And that's not an optimisation.
No mob mind. No shapechange. No analyze device. No increase reflex.
The counterballancing of the overpowered mage is supposed the (in)famous "geek the mage first". But really, I don't understand how you should do that. Cause if you bring enouygh firepower to geek the (prepared and not playing nice) mage (if she's not prepared, i guess that can be done, but then it is just a stupid mage. note that in that game mage don't need to be smart ...), you're probably really aiming for a TPK.
Cause everything you can do, a mage can do better (sooner or later, he's greater than you. :p)
Want to use pistols. Ok I can do that. Just analyze device, and now I'm a better shotter than the sniper. Or a better haccker than the decker. Or a better driver than the rigger ... Better if I can use a spell focus to maintain it, but I can take a -2 in exchange for +4 (yeah let's say I'm not quite too powerfull neither too lucky). Wait, you get than nice reflex booster. Ok, Papa legba, spirit of man, just cast increased reflex on me. I use luck on that spell and you sustain it (for ever, since it's one of your power you use, and not a spell I cast). Ok now I'm probably faster than anyone and I't did not cost me as much as almost all your essence.
Ok. I'm a mage so I have very low physical stat (hey, can be everywhere, and if you want astral (do you ?), you need real mental stat). Maybe I could just transform myself into something bigger. Ok let's take shapechange. I have 1 body. Let's say I find a 3 body critter. For simplicity,3 everywhere. Just one hit (so force 1 spell needed. not even obvious I am casting it befor it is too late) and this is 4 to every physical attribute... Obviously, this is a man spîrit casting it for ever. Or just a sustain focus... Sadly I have to be an animal to do that. So I lose all my stuff, write ? Quite Wrong. Nothing say you can't have equipement in relation to your form. Or a form which is quite ok with your your equipement. Millspec will probably be problematic (especially because of the custom fit. Hey can you take my mesurement for a bear millspec ?), but I guess you can get most of the armor and just modify it so you can fit in with an ape, or even a big dog. A big dog will not even be tagged as a mage, since security have that kind of armored dogs ... Or maybe you could get than skinwalker level 3 and get a body at yours +18 (wait, is there even a critter at body 18 ? I think, by the book, the maximum paranormal critter body is about 20... ) ... What were those useless shapeshifter from Cyberpunk 3 ? To be fare, having a whole whale skin with you if you want to skinwalk is not exactly easy If I really want, i can go with ape, and have usable hands and use a lot of guns and play dumb after that.
Ok so now that I have a lot +5d6 init, what can I do with it. I could just hack things in AR with trodes. Well I don't have all that sweet bonuses from VR, but really lot of them seems not that usefull (honestly, I did not quite read that part of the rules), and the analyze device should compensate. Plus no damage.
I can also be the best fighter ever. Base skill + a lot of agility with the right critter + analyze device. And you are probably as good as the adept, and better than the street sam. Ok no problem. You ar as good as the street sam at one skill he should be the master. Not that big deal. You still don't have everything else he has. Augmentation and gear. Well, you have a lot of other spell, and you can have the same gear, as long as it is not ware. Not sur if there is a lot of ware you can't emulate with spells...
best stealth. bestfighter. best hacker. Potentially higher armor tahn anyone else.
So really, I need help to find How to geek the mage without setting the difficulty too high for everyone else. Dispell mean mage, mean same things in front, mean overpower. Barrier, will maybe dispell (if powerfull enough) but the spirit will just go back to their plane, the mage will go through, one way or another, and the spirit will comme back on the right side. It at least limit the capacity of the spirit go solo while the mage just sleep at home (which I'm considering right now, to just play a powerfull spirit. Cause I talk about force 7 spirit. But nothing forbid to team summon a power 13 spirit and send it for a remote service. Just kill that guy. Just bring me that mcGuffin out there. SR4 had the option of playing a free spirit, which, as overpowered it felt, had the big limitation of being unable to summon)
P.S. : Sorry for my poor english, not a native speaker. I just hope it is unbderstandable and not to ... painfull.
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Astral Security would easily spot your Spirits and your sustained spells, unless your Initiation Grade is high enough to Mask them all.
Wards would cause you trouble with the spells.
Under errata of CRB, Possession still faces Augmented Maximum.
Analyze Device is described as helping operate, which means that no, if your GM puts their foot down you do not get to randomly grab bonus dice on attacking with an Analyzed pistol. The same goes for Decking and Driving.
And you keep talking about how you can buff yourself, but you never talk about buffing your fellow Shadowrunners.
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You're playing SR5?
And you want to kick the mage in the junk w/o simultaneously smearing the mundanes?
My friend, let me introduce you to Blight (tm) Toxin. See Better Than Bad, pg 157. Start giving your CorpSec and Response Teams spare clips of DMSO+Blight capsule rounds.
(the TL;DR: unless you can FULLY soak power 15 toxin, you're now a mundane. No more magic until the toxin wears off. And it takes hours.)
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Analyze Device is described as helping operate, which means that no, if your GM puts their foot down you do not get to randomly grab bonus dice on attacking with an Analyzed pistol. The same goes for Decking and Driving.
So yes, that spell is grossly op, and yes, a GM can make any house rule they want. But that aside, you absolutely get bonus dice shooting a weapon, decking, or driving with a device under the effect of that spell. Just in case the word operate is confusing to anyone else:
op·er·ate
/ˈäpəˌrāt/
Learn to pronounce
verb
1.
(of a person) control the functioning of (a machine, process, or system).
"a shortage of workers to operate new machines"
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Killing a player is never really a problem as a GM if you truly determined to do. Start fighting and keep fighting, Keep hitting'em Once they run, and reach where they think are safe, start hitting'em again. You will wear'em down .
Blight is the silver bullet option if you want to be nice. Narcojets, Snipers, numerous high force spirits, there are LOTS of options, any one of those will work.
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IF playing 5e,
Read up on Possession again.
First, you have touch the target... next the SPIRIT rolls its ForceX2 Vs Intuition + willpower. And naturally, as a now Dual natured entity, your possessed "ally" now has a host of other things to worry about, such as being attack from the astral by Corpsec mages and spirits, Wards and Barriers will become an issue. AND don't forget your possessed ally doesn't use the bodies' cyber/skills... it uses its own.. so while you may have taken out a "powerful enemy" (provided you can touch him, and the force of the spirit you summoned can over power the subject) he's not that effective on your side.
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Analyze Device
(Active, Directional)
Type: P Range: T
Duration: S Drain: F – 3
This spell allows the subject to analyze the purpose and
operation of a device or piece of equipment within range
of the sense. The casting of the spell is opposed by the object’s
resistance (p. 295). Each net hit can be used to provide
a piece of information about the device that would
not be readily apparent (for example, it would not give the
information that it is a Renraku-manufactured device if the
thing is emblazoned with a huge Renraku logo, but it might
say what the basic function of the thing is). Each net hit also
gives the subject a bonus die while operating the device
and allows the subject to ignore any skill-defaulting modifiers
for using it as long as the spell is sustained.
This spell has been an issue for a LONG time....
The keys to this spell is the Object resistance test. And the sustaining penalty.
A firearm in Shadowrun isn't some chuck of high test steel like in the 1800s... They are made of alloys, and computers, and circuits.. with LED displays and all sorts of other useless crap that SR insists has to be in a gun nowadays.. This pushes their Object Resistance to the 15+ range.
So, if you can score hits VS the 15+ dice opposed test, good.
you then have to sustain the spell (incurring -2 dice to all tests) to keep that dice bonus...
Yes, you could use a foci to sustain the Analyze Device spell, but that that expenditure of Karma, Reagents (to push the limit), and money (foci, reagents)... would not be better just raising the skill?
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Ya, Analyze Device would be on my personal short list of stuff in 5e that still most needs fixing.
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That was just a few example showing that if you can create an efficient character, you can do it better with the mage. Yeah, obviously you can do the same for your teammate, most off the time with more efficiency. I did not talk about lot of other spell neither. But I use Fashion on them all the time, protect them with that trid phantasm, and that kind of things.
And inside team synergy is never a problem, since th whole team is more powerfull with it (as I said, I use my character mostly to boost everyone during battle). You can cast increase reflexe on the whole team, using spirit to sustain it as long as you cast them, then sustain it your self. And all that sort of stuff. But everything you do for the team, you can do for yourself. And you're no use for the team if you end up dead. So I stand, if you protect yourself first, how can someone kill the mage, without being able to kill everyone else without even a thought ? The mage will boost friends as long as they are able to protect or save him.
A character is never too powerfull by it self. GM can always find more nasty thing to throw at the team. But a character can have too much individual power which, imo, is frustrating for other player, and for the player since he can't find as much difficulties.
That security point is a start. but spirit can just stay in their plane and appear when asked (which at least would be time consumming). And isn't your raw power enough to be spotted ? At 6 Magic (and sometimes foci), won't the security team spot you with or without spells and spirit ? I feel like spotting a powerful mage, especially with foci, without spirit and without sustain spell would draw even more attention, since he would look like that guy with a big coat a hat and black glasses at night uner that street lamp. If you are powerfull and have all those things, why don't you use it if it is not to avoid drawing attention ? (which consequently draw attention)
That thing about augmented maximum doesn't make sence to me on that particular case. Since spirit can augment inanimate things. But consistency is not the word I think about when I think about Shadowrun. I guess it make sense balance wise, so I can be ok with it. More reason to shape thing to have all the power of spirits. (and honestly, it comes in play only for spirit of force 9 and more. not so usual. Also, not sure a materialized power 9+ spirit cause a lot less problem than a possessing one, with or without augmented maximum)
GM can always rules things out (like those edge spell on sustain focus that most everyone rules out, I think). Still Analyze Device stat explicetely that you get bonus while operating the device, and specifiacally talk about the skills, so I think RAW (and even RAI...) you get those bonus... But maybe it is my understanding of english. Not sure which skill it refer to, then.
I still think you could make a pretty powerfull decker mage, which is fun. If it is not overpowered, the better.
Edit since ... lot of answer. (and I think i'm a robot)
Not agreed with that resistance of 15 for weapon (but obviously, GM choice). If this is true for weapon, this is true for everything, and either something is res 3 either it is res 9. For information, clothe and armor are hjinted (in fashion) to be 6 to 9, 9 being those with wireless and all chunk of augmentation in them. And armor seems a lot higher tech to me than weapon. For me 15 is nano and cyberware, mostly. Cyberdeck would be 15, probably.
For the possession part. I don't think you have to touch the target. The spirit has. It is the spirit which have the possession power. not you.
The part about cyberware and possession seems tricky to me. For me it means the spirit can't activate things by itslf, but can still use articulation. Can't use a reflex booster or a hand taser, but the hand will still move, for the same reason a cyber eye allow to cast spell. But I admit I'm biased on the subject, and wouldn't found surprising, neither chocking, to have my GM rulling it the other other way. Wouldt hat mean the original user can still keep control of it ? That would be fun ^^ (for me if that was the intended rule, that last point would have been treat. But, there is to much missing point for me to bet on that)
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Ya, Analyze Device would be on my personal short list of stuff in 5e that still most needs fixing.
And you would be right to do so. I have always appreciated that you correctly acknowledge what the spell says and does though, and then note your personal preference (which I share) that it is bonkers and needs addressed.
As far as the gaming world is concerned, my single biggest pet peeve is when someone attempts to present their personal preference or balance to a given rule when it is perfectly clear it says otherwise. Drives me nuts!
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That security point is a start. but spirit can just stay in their plane and appear when asked (which at least would be time consumming). And isn't your raw power enough to be spotted ? At 6 Magic (and sometimes foci), won't the security team spot you with or without spells and spirit ? I feel like spotting a powerful mage, especially with foci, without spirit and without sustain spell would draw even more attention, since he would look like that guy with a big coat a hat and black glasses at night uner that street lamp. If you are powerfull and have all those things, why don't you use it if it is not to avoid drawing attention ? (which consequently draw attention)
What does a mage look like to you???
A Mage, is just a person. That can channel mana into spells and call forth spirits. End of list. They look like PEOPLE! There is no style of dress that ALL mages are forced to wear. They don't all wear pointy hats and carry wants you know :D
A mage can wear whatever the heck his personal sense of fashion dictates! Be that $100,000 Zoe-Armani Tres Chic attire, or paper clothing from a dispenser (actually a thing in SR), all the way to Heavy Military Specialized armor (if appart of the military).
Physically there is nothing outward that tells you someone is awakened. Only an other awakened can naturally spot another awakened, and even then they need Astral Perception, and must make an asensing test.
THIS is one of the reason why mages are just so feared... You can't spot them in a crowd, and you have no idea if they are using magic until the end results of the spell can be seen.. (and when many spell effects have NO visible clues.... like mind control! Or Control Actions!) Well.... I am sure you can see why people fear mages....
which is also why when Corpsec knows they are dealing with magic (another reason for mages to keep their heads down on runs), they bring magic of their own.
IF Magic back up will take time to get there, Corpsec falls back of the usual tried and proven anti-magic techniques...
*Limit line of sight:
Mages need to see you for most of their spells to work, So don't be seen!!! Use those handy gun cams on Smart links to shoot around corners.
*AOE is your Friend
Sometimes you can't shoot at a mage because of where he placed himself... Pepper punch grenades, flashbangs, Tear Gas, are all great, non destructive options for getting to a mage in a spot a bullet can't get to... And they don't hurt the property! If property damage isn't an issue... Frag grenades work better.. Just saying.
*Reach out a touch them
Snipers on Runner teams are just not a great idea. Too much work to set up in the city (after all, you almost have to do an entire other run to get the sniper in place!). But the Police have no such issues under a police emergency... Add to that that Drones, especially flying drones, make great mobile sniper platforms... and can be outfitted with all sorts of weapons.. from Tranq guns to missile launchers. And pesky sensors like Ultrasound to bypass Invisibility spells (if the high OR of the drone didn't defeat it)
*Wait them out
If all else fails.. Time is on Corpsec's side. They don't have to defeat you, they just have to keep you from leaving. Once that is done, they will. Eventually you need to sleep, They don't (There are HUNDREDS of Corpsec that can be called in.. you are... Just you.)
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Ya, Analyze Device would be on my personal short list of stuff in 5e that still most needs fixing.
And you would be right to do so. I have always appreciated that you correctly acknowledge what the spell says and does though, and then note your personal preference (which I share) that it is bonkers and needs addressed.
As far as the gaming world is concerned, my single biggest pet peeve is when someone attempts to present their personal preference or balance to a given rule when it is perfectly clear it says otherwise. Drives me nuts!
Just for the sake of playful disagreement:
I'd call it a dumpster fire, instead of bonkers :D
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object resistance table
INITIATIVE TYPE dice pool
Natural Objects 3
Trees, soil, unprocessed water, hand-carved wood, metal cold-worked by hand)
Manufactured Low-Tech Objects and Materials 6
Brick, leather, simple plastics
Manufactured High-Tech Objects and Materials 9
Advanced plastics, alloys, electronic equipment, sensors
Highly Processed Objects 15+
Computers, complex toxic wastes, drones, vehicles
That's the list from page 295.
And in Shadowrun, Guns contain Computers. (And electronic firing, LED heat/ammo displays - which means process control and measurement.) and this is on top of add ons like smartguns, laser sights, Bioinfomatic security systems... all of which can be integral to the firearm...
And THIS is on top of the fact that a firearm is a highly engineered piece of equipment that directs EXPLOSIONS!
The different between a BOMB and a GUN? Engineering.
Or course, you are free to disagree.. but I would point out that the end category is 15PLUS.
Thus, you GM is free to rule is much higher...
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By that big coat thing, i would mean you would look like this :
(https://media.gettyimages.com/vectors/trenchcoat-character-vector-id460819451?s=612x612)
Trying not too be spoted, and everyone astraly perceiving beeing able to see that.
I know a mage have no special appearance. My Mage is actually an actress in her daylife (or was). Playing a remake of Buffy. :p
Yep. Nothing about weapon. So open to interpretation (but for me it is a 9, electronic equipment). I'm okay for vehicle. More different things in it. (did't really thought about this one. In fact, I never used that spell, just seeing it potential)
Fact is you need to add smart gun to have any smartness in your gun. And even think that smartgun don't have anti friendly fire anymore, so not realy smart. So not so high tech if you don't link it to your pan. It is your commlink that does all the work. As I said before, the spell fashion state that armor are always between 6 and 9. And armor have biomonitors and all kind of stuff on it...
Still 15 is far from impossible. Resistance will rarely get help. You can start at 16 and have few help (team work/leadership, spirit ...) if you need it. But ok. difficult to become the perfect driver from nowhere.
And for the grenade. Ok that's an ok move. For now we have been essentially inside (sewer, casino, building sized LTAV), so sniper weren't a problem. grenade. Would be a problem, i guess. And since they are expendable ressource, what you throw at the mage cannot be thrown again, so it qualifies as not a TPK aiming, i guess. Still not easy since you have to go through the whole party, but i guess a grenade launcher can shoot mostly everywhere., spirit comming at the mage, while totally a problem are a problem for whole the team, and if the mage fall incoscious fightiong them, the party will probably die, since the mage is the best weapon against spirits... same for security mages (my team being very dual entity would not have too much problem killing spirit, i guess. But a mage dying is half a dozen ally being taking out. And the opponent spirits are still there ...)
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Ya, Analyze Device would be on my personal short list of stuff in 5e that still most needs fixing.
And you would be right to do so. I have always appreciated that you correctly acknowledge what the spell says and does though, and then note your personal preference (which I share) that it is bonkers and needs addressed.
As far as the gaming world is concerned, my single biggest pet peeve is when someone attempts to present their personal preference or balance to a given rule when it is perfectly clear it says otherwise. Drives me nuts!
Just for the sake of playful disagreement:
I'd call it a dumpster fire, instead of bonkers :D
The RAW is goofy enough that in actual play this spell was so far down on a optimizer list they had broken the game 3 sustains back.
GM: "Where did you get the extra 7 Dice from...? Never mind, just roll."
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What does a mage look like to you???
A Mage, is just a person. That can channel mana into spells and call forth spirits. End of list. They look like PEOPLE! There is no style of dress that ALL mages are forced to wear. They don't all wear pointy hats and carry wants you know :D
In my home game a Mage Licence is a giant pointy hat covered in stars.... ;)
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Just for the sake of playful disagreement:
I'd call it a dumpster fire, instead of bonkers :D
Jokes on you then, because I agree with your disagreement, so HA! :p
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For instance, firearm don't shoot by themself. You have drones for that. A vehicle is able to operate itself. Hence resistance 15.
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Just for the sake of playful disagreement:
I'd call it a dumpster fire, instead of bonkers :D
Jokes on you then, because I agree with your disagreement, so HA! :p
Checkmate? O_o
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A mage looks like any other person in the astral. You need to assense to figure out what they're like, and even then they can use Masking to disguise themselves. 'Oh hey they have 6 essence' is a good hint someone is magical, but not a perfect one.
Possession doesn't require the Summoner to touch the target, it requires the Spirit to, which means the Spirit has to sneak up on the target in the Astral. Augmented Maximum is described in the updated printing as "Whatever the source, or combination of sources, the maximum bonus for any attribute is always +4, unless specifically excepted." So if your Force 8 Spirit possesses someone who has 5(8) Agility and 4(6) Reaction, the net result is 5(9) Agility and 4(8) Reaction, not 5(12) and 4(10).
Words matter. Analyze Device mentions it's about operating a device. You wield a gun, you don't 'operate' it. Pulling a trigger isn't complicated, so a GM can easily argue against it or simply disallow it (at best allow it for remote-controlled weapon mounts), AND any non-throwback gun definitely is OR 15+. Trying to figure out how some weird control system works, sure. A medkit, sure. A complicated crane, sure. A Mechanic Shop? Sure, but you might need to cast on several devices at the same time, and hello Sustaining penalties! Vehicles: At best you can drive a car with it (again, OR 15+), but so can any Street Sam that spends 2 Karma on Pilot Ground Craft and uses their augmented Reaction to drive decently, and even then you don't get the Threshold Reduction that makes a Rigger's Control Rig frickin' A. And you don't operate a Deck, you simply persona through it, then its attributes are of help to you. The Matrix Actions are just you, they simply require the Matrix Attribute to be possible. So you don't get to be an improv Decker with Analyze Device, because the Deck isn't the one doing the hacking, you are.
Analyze Device and Diagnostics have been a point of contention for a while now, but they still use very specific words that do not equate 'get bonus dice on every action taken with whatever targeted device'. Restricting them based on the words used, isn't 'imposing one's preference', it's actually acknowledging that language matters. If language doesn't matter, then there's no point in discussing RAW to begin with, so miss me with that 'pet peeve'. You can debate when something counts as operating, but 'whatever usage' does not always equate operating.
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I see your point, especially for weapon. But don't you use mainly your deck attribute to hack ? (that's what have always been told to me) So, for my point of view, it mean that it is the deck that does the action. You just command your deck. Just like I command My computer to "write" that message. It involve more process than I can control all by myself. I just ... operate it ? (again, I may be unable to see a meaning difference due to lack of skill in english, but it seems to answer your argumentation).
If weapon are res 15, I need help to see what is not ? Cause since ou can hack from your toaster, and close include comlink and all sort of high tech, I'm not sure what could be above 3 (lets say 6) and not a 15 in the sixth world.
And if they have a 15 (or even 9), doesn't that mean that there is more to do with it than just press the trigger ? I think that could be a receivable argumentation on the analyze device spell. Still I'm not desperately trying to make it work. Quite the contrary.
And this is not the only spell that make you (and everyone else If you help them, but you can't know synergy before the first scenario) better at mostly everything.
Aren't foci dual natured ? If so, doesn't that mean they don't look like normal object, without any need for ascenssing as long as you're astrally perceiving ?
Also, a rigger implant could be needed, but I suspectg a rigger would still be better by being a mage. Everyone feel better by being a mage. I think this is an attack from Ars Magica. :p
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Words matter. Analyze Device mentions it's about operating a device. You wield a gun, you don't 'operate' it. Pulling a trigger isn't complicated, so a GM can easily argue against it or simply disallow it (at best allow it for remote-controlled weapon mounts), AND any non-throwback gun definitely is OR 15+. Trying to figure out how some weird control system works, sure. A medkit, sure. A complicated crane, sure. A Mechanic Shop? Sure, but you might need to cast on several devices at the same time, and hello Sustaining penalties! Vehicles: At best you can drive a car with it (again, OR 15+), but so can any Street Sam that spends 2 Karma on Pilot Ground Craft and uses their augmented Reaction to drive decently, and even then you don't get the Threshold Reduction that makes a Rigger's Control Rig frickin' A. And you don't operate a Deck, you simply persona through it, then its attributes are of help to you. The Matrix Actions are just you, they simply require the Matrix Attribute to be possible. So you don't get to be an improv Decker with Analyze Device, because the Deck isn't the one doing the hacking, you are.
Analyze Device and Diagnostics have been a point of contention for a while now, but they still use very specific words that do not equate 'get bonus dice on every action taken with whatever targeted device'. Restricting them based on the words used, isn't 'imposing one's preference', it's actually acknowledging that language matters. If language doesn't matter, then there's no point in discussing RAW to begin with, so miss me with that 'pet peeve'. You can debate when something counts as operating, but 'whatever usage' does not always equate operating.
Dude, come on. The difference between using the verb wield or operate in the sense of using a device for its intended purpose is a nitpick at best. This is the english language - we have numerous different words for the same damn thing for very nearly everything, to the point of complete redundancy.
Now if the game had codified game terms, then that might support your preference here, but it doesn't.
Bottom line: if you use a device for it's designed purpose, the bonus applies. If you don't like that, I totally understand. I don't care for it either. But do not try to pass off your game balance preference as what the spell actually says, because all that is going to do is confuse people who don't know any better. You're smart enough to know you are selectively reading that spell, not honestly reading it.
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PAGE 295 CRB
object resistance table
INITIATIVE TYPE dice pool
Natural Objects 3
Trees, soil, unprocessed water, hand-carved wood, metal cold-worked by hand)
Manufactured Low-Tech Objects and Materials 6
Brick, leather, simple plastics
Manufactured High-Tech Objects and Materials 9
Advanced plastics, alloys, electronic equipment, sensors
Highly Processed Objects 15+
Computers, complex toxic wastes, drones, vehicles
That's the Object resistance table from the book. And I will admit it leaves a lot to be desired.
At the lowest end of the scale (3), you have the natural materials, worked with simple hand tools, or not chemically altered through refinement (hence the "cold worked" blurb)
At the next lowest (6), or have manufactured natural goods (like leather, brick), and simple plastics (think sandwich and garbage bags to plastic casings)
Near the top (9): you have highly processed items... Shatter/UV proof plastics, Stainless steel, circuit boards, and sensors. (a motion sensor on a light, Stainless steel, an Oscilloscope (rudimentary), A drill Press, a Door bell... )
And at the top highly processed items (15+), such as computers, vehicles and drones.
And yes. MOST things in Shadowrun you are going to be in the 15+ range... Thanks to the mass produced, Consumer electronics era we are in.
In fact, I would argue that just about anything you buy from a store is going to be in that 15+ range because its all assembled by machines, from chemical compounds and alloys.. there is almost nothing "natural" left in anything you buy... There is no "soul" for the mana to connect to...
Now as to firearms in SR.. lets look at firearms.
Page 424 CRB
Firearms come with wireless capability and a digital
ammunition counter. Ammunition (p. 433) is sold separately.
All firearms have the following wireless bonuses
in addition to any wireless bonuses on each model:
Wireless: The weapon displays an ARO that tells you
ammo levels and ammo type loaded. If you have a DNI,
you get two additional benefits. First, ejecting a clip (for
weapons that have them) is a Free Action rather than a
Simple Action. Second, changing fire modes (on models
that have more than one) is a Free Action rather than
a Simple Action
Wireless bonus.... (I know I am going to sound like an asshole but...) I am unaware of any naturally occurring substance that transmits digital data in a readable pattern.
BUT, I do know that computers, and wifi modems can do this... SO they MUST be in a firearm,,,,
Digital Ammo Counter.... (And again... soundling like an asshole) well its DIGITAL... so that means electricity, and and Light Emitting Diodes arranged in a readable pattern, and that pattern has to be controlled by a (even a simple) I/O panel, AND hooked up to a sensor to count the ammo in the gun...
Then there is the fact that most (not all) firearms use caseless ammo, which means an electronic firing mechanism... Be that a battery powered system, or a Piezoelectric system (which probably wouldn't work for automatic fire)...
And that is not even looking that the actual material composition of the weapon. Most modern firearms are made from with stainless steel (for that silver finish) or high test steel.. which again involves smelting an adding in various other elements. (Iron is a natural substance.. STEEL is an alloy of Iron and Carbon)
so that is where you get your 15+ OR for firearms.. (and quite possibly anything and everything else you pick up in a store in Shadworun.._
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(defense pool for
the clothing can be between 6 and 9, depending on the
complexity of the material and whether it interweaves
electronics into the threads)
Manufactured High-Tech Objects and Materials 9
Advanced plastics, alloys, electronic equipment, sensors
So everything you say about firearm (advanced plastic and alloy, electronic equipment, sensor ... ? ), for me, scream res 9. Not Res 15. Cloth and armor are also full of technoilogical crap. when you put on your fancy Mortimer suit, there is wireless, there is balistic materials, there is biomonitors, ruthenium, myomeric pocket, and all that sort of things. Still, this seem high tech for us living in 2020, but I guess it is still quite low tech for 2075. I guess millspec could receive a special treatment, but i'm not even sure of that.
Weapon are not full computer by themself. They have link, they have "simple" calculator. But except for very specific weapons, I guess you could not hack just using your weapon. or maybe with 1 in all your deck attributes. You could probably hack from your drone or from your car. Cars take decision by themself in that world, even without gridlink. And that's not called AI.
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(defense pool for
the clothing can be between 6 and 9, depending on the
complexity of the material and whether it interweaves
electronics into the threads)
Manufactured High-Tech Objects and Materials 9
Advanced plastics, alloys, electronic equipment, sensors
So everything you say about firearm (advanced plastic and alloy, electronic equipment, sensor ... ? ), for me, scream res 9. Not Res 15. Cloth and armor are also full of technoilogical crap. when you put on your fancy Mortimer suit, there is wireless, there is balistic materials, there is biomonitors, ruthenium, myomeric pocket, and all that sort of things. Still, this seem high tech for us living in 2020, but I guess it is still quite low tech for 2075. I guess millspec could receive a special treatment, but i'm not even sure of that.
Weapon are not full computer by themself. They have link, they have "simple" calculator. But except for very specific weapons, I guess you could not hack just using your weapon. or maybe with 1 in all your deck attributes. You could probably hack from your drone or from your car. Cars take decision by themself in that world, even without gridlink. And that's not called AI.
Quote where you are getting that from.
FASHION
(ENVIRONMENTAL, AREA)
Type: P Range: T
Duration: P Drain: F – 1
This spell instantly tailors clothing, transforming garments
into any fashion the caster wishes. The net hits
over the clothing’s object resistance (defense pool for
the clothing can be between 6 and 9, depending on the
complexity of the material and whether it interweaves
electronics into the threads) measure the degree of
style in the tailoring. The spell cannot change clothing’s
protective value, only its cut, color, pattern, and fit. The
weight of the clothing does not change, and it must cover
approximately the same amount of area (for example,
a jumpsuit can’t be converted into a bikini). The caster
must touch the clothing.
>> STREET GRIMOIRE <<
<< EXPANDED GRIMOIRE 115
FASHION HITS TABLE
NET HITS RESULT
1
The tint of the color can change (e.g., dark blue to light blue,
but not blue to green); minor adjustments such as mending
bullet holes can also be performed
2
Adjustments to the fit of the clothing can be made, but nothing
drastic about the nature of the clothes (for example, pants are
still pants). Color can change slightly (e.g., blue to green or
purple, but not red).
3
Full spectrum of color can be manipulated. Simple geometric
patterns and designs can be added, but nothing as elaborate
as corporate logos or name tags. Modifications such as the
addition or removal of pockets or pants to a skirt can be done.
Repairs and cleaning of the clothing can also be performed.
4+
Clothing can be changed with enough specificity to mimic a
uniform, provided enough material is available. Color changes
can help mimic missing accessories such as buttons, labels,
badges, ribbons, etc. These changes, however, are only
convincing at a distance if the physical accessories are not
present. The closer a target gets to the subject, the more
likely they will notice the actual accessories are missing (a
gamemaster would call for a Perception Test to see if the
per- son notices). Patterns and designs on clothing can be as
intricate as the magician desires
You are quoting a spell, with specific results... And yes I agree, in this case explicitly.
Specific trumps General...
But it doesn't change general rules for general items, under general conditions.
and remember the table is guide. Your Gm is free to do with it as he pleases.
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Your Gm is free to do with it as he pleases.
First of all, that rule should always be forgotten on a discussion about rules. It is always very true. But if you don't need the rules, why get the books ? The rules should be helping, not putting doubt and everything. GM can rule that troll start with all attribute at 18 and elves can't go above 3. This is not what is written in the book and nobody will suppose that you play like that, and the player neither if the GM don't say it first. Rules are not needed to play. You can chose to use it or not. But asking GM will not tell me what is written, neither than what that probably supposed to mean. This will tell me what he will use in this particular campaign. Important, but of no indication for the next one, for example.
As a GM I usually tell my player that if I tell them "no because ..." this is open to interpretation and they can counter argument, show me other rules for my better understanding (or their) etc. If i just say "no", just deal with it, and let's play.
GM can correct all the semingly error of all books. If he want to. But 1) he don't know everything 2) he does not have any opinion on everything, which mean you obviously should discuss with him.
That table guive only guidelines. So I'm ready to discuss how resistant is everything. I gave you my argument. I'm ok to receive counter argumenbtation, but, please, don't "Gm-choice" me. It feel like the Godwin point of rpg rules discussion.
For my interpretation, the 6-9 res for clothe is just an indication, not a rule modification. It is the only indication concerning any device out of the rather unprecise resistance table. Nowhere it is written weapon =15, and nowhere else it is written clothe =9 (nor 15). It is the closest thing we have of rules for resistance in anything I have read. And I have to admit, I'm biased because it confirm the way I feel about it. 15 should not be for everything, and 9 cover quite a lot of things, simply with "electronic equipment"
In fact, just reading, 6 and 9 example are quite vaste, but 15 is quite precise, 15 is "Computers, complex toxic wastes, drones, vehicles". Weapon are nothing of those per se. Of course those are examples. But the other examples include lot and lot of things. Not that last category.
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Well, with regards to the various tiers on the Object Resistance mechanic:
You have to do one of two things:
1) between all the tiers, every possible thing is listed
2) each tier has a categorical, "things like this" bucket that a GM can use reason/common sense to find the best fit for a device that wasn't explicitly given as a categorical example.
1 is obviously impossible. 2 necessarily invokes "GM discretion". If two players disagree over whether the smartlink processors make a gun count as "electronics" and therefore 9 dice on the OR or "a computer" and therefore 15 dice on the OR, the opinion held by the GM trumps the opinion held by the non-GM.
But for whatever it's worth, take a look at the 6e version of how the OR tiers are worded:
object resistance table
TYPE OF OBJECT RATING
Natural objects 3
Trees, rocks, soil, wood, metal cold-worked by hand, unprocessed water
Manufactured low-tech
objects and materials
6
Brick, glass, leather, paper, simple plastics
Manufactured high-tech
objects and materials
9
Advanced plastics, alloys, concrete, electronic equipment, firearms,
sensors
Highly processed objects 15+
Commlinks, cyberdecks, drones, vehicles, complex toxic waste, Cheez-Bitz
IMO helps clear up the "electronics vs computers" issue, at least.
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You have to do one of two things:
1) between all the tiers, every possible thing is listed
2) each tier has a categorical, "things like this" bucket that a GM can use reason/common sense to find the best fit for a device that wasn't explicitly given as a categorical example.
1 is obviously impossible. 2 necessarily invokes "GM discretion". If two players disagree over whether the smartlink processors make a gun count as "electronics" and therefore 9 dice on the OR or "a computer" and therefore 15 dice on the OR, the opinion held by the GM trumps the opinion held by the non-GM.
Obviously the book can't list everything, that's ludicrous. But given that it's clearly ambiguous how complicated 2080 guns are -- and therefore where they land on this table -- and given mages are often going to want to cast spells on opponent's weapons, it's an oversight that it wasn't included.
Catalyst appears to agree with me, BTW, because it added an explicit callout for "firearms" to the object resistant table in 6e.
I will reformat and put 5e and 6e side by side for comparison:
Natural objects (3)
5e: Trees, soil, unprocessed water, hand-carved wood, metal cold-worked by hand
6e: Trees, rocks, soil, wood, metal cold-worked by hand, unprocessed water
Manufactured low-tech objects and materials (6)
5e: Brick, leather, simple plastics
6e: Brick, glass, leather, paper, simple plastics
Manufactured high-tech objects and materials (9)
5e: Advanced plastics, alloys, electronic equipment, sensors
6e: Advanced plastics, alloys, concrete, electronic equipment, firearms, sensors
Highly processed objects (15+)
5e: Computers, complex toxic wastes, drones, vehicles
6e: Commlinks, cyberdecks, drones, vehicles, complex toxic waste, Cheez-Bitz[/quote]
IMO helps clear up the "electronics vs computers" issue, at least.
Electronics are explicitly 9 and computers are explicitly 15+ in both 5e and 6e. What does 6e clear up?
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IMO helps clear up the "electronics vs computers" issue, at least.
Electronics are explicitly 9 and computers are explicitly 15+ in both 5e and 6e. What does 6e clear up?
That if it's an electronic device that does computations, but is not something similar to a commlink or cyberdeck, it's "electronic and therefore OR 9" instead of "it computes, and is therefore a computer, and therefore OR 15"
RCC isn't listed. Is it 9 or 15? I think most people would reasonably say it's akin to a commlink or cyberdeck, and therefore 15.
A wageslave's desktop workstation/terminal isn't listed. Is it 9 or 15? I think most people would reasonably say it's akin to a commlink or cyberdeck, and therefore 15.
Goggles with Smartlink enhancement isn't listed. Is it 9 or 15? I think most people would reasonably say it's not akin to a commlink or cyberdeck, and therefore this electronic device is 9.
The oscilloscope in my engineering toolkit isn't listed. Is it 9 or 15? I think most people would reasonably say it's not akin to a commlink or cyberdeck, and therefore this electronic device is 9.
etc.
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I don't know if analyze device is that bad, i think people just don't enforce the object resistance requirement. the only things the spell makes you good at operating most of the time is using very simple things like a steel sword. shadowrun decks and guns are so complex that if you are getting massive net hits, then your magic + skill + foci is high enough such that literally any spell you cast is going to be a problem for your opposition.
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The issue with imo, are legacy of the 5e TM issues. The spell is different, but we let the cat out of the bag on the TM version b/c it was all they had during most of 5e. So i suspect the magic version largely got passed through as a result of that.
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Physically there is nothing outward that tells you someone is awakened. Only an other awakened can naturally spot another awakened, and even then they need Astral Perception, and must make an asensing test.
Agree.
...having said that, spotting that a magician is performing (casting?) a spell is typically resolved with a regular perception test (does not have to be awakened or observe the astral plane to take this test).
SR5 p.280 Perceiving Magic
Noticing magic is a Simple Perception + Intuition [Mental] Test with a threshold equal to the Skill Rating of the being performing it minus the Force of the magic...
First, you have touch the target...
I think you need to read that again. The magician does not physically touch the physical target on the physical plane. It is the wholly astral spirit on the astral plane that need to get in contact with the intangible astral aura of the target...
SG p. 197 Possession
Some spirits are incapable of materializing, so they must possess vessels in order to interact with meat space. During a possession attempt, the spirit uses the vessel’s aura as a temporary conduit to the physical plane. The spirit makes an Opposed Test by rolling its Force x 2 against the vessel’s Intuition + Willpower for living vessels or the Object Resistance dice pool of an inanimate vessel.
That's the list from page 295.
I would personally rule that a firearm is just an electronic device like many other electronic devices. Not a cyberdeck.
Aren't foci dual natured ?
Active foci are dual natrued and have an immediately obvious astral form, yes. Any spells you sustain on your character also have an immediately obvious astral form that does not require a test to be noticed. In a crowd of people you would probably be singled out by an astral observer.
If you don't have any active foci and no active spells running on your character then you will, on the astral plane, just have an intangible astral aura - just like anyone else. But if an astral observer still take the time to actually sense your specific aura then it typically only need one single hit to sense that you are awakened and not mundane.
BUT, I do know that computers, and wifi modems can do this... SO they MUST be in a firearm,,,,
All electronic devices have wireless capability by default in this edition. Does not mean they get the same objective resistance as cyberdecks and drones. Electronic equipment are explicitly listed in the table that you yourself posted (twice now).
The vast majority of wireless enabled electronic devices that are full of RFID tags, electronics and powered by electricity and have their own matrix condition monitor etc does not have the same extreme object resistance as even more complex devices such as cyberdecks, drones or vehicles.
The book seem to make a clear distinction between the two...