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Increased Reflexes and Combat Sense in Astral

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DigitalZombie

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« Reply #15 on: <04-09-19/0106:16> »
I think Mirikon is misrembering the power.
As it doesnt use the word reaction in the description.

Each rank adds 1 dice to defence test against melee and ranged attacks.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #16 on: <04-09-19/0118:12> »
I would read it as the dice bonus to defense tests is not tied to Reaction at all but a straight bonus to the defense pool.
The spell is phrased in such a way that I'd argue that any surprise test somehow not involving Reaction, would not get the bonus. But it indeed says "adds 1 die to ..., and also to rolls ..." so the defense-part is not Reaction-tied. Which means the only thing that matters is that the defense roll is against ranged/melee.

Also, any bonus that says 'add X die to Attribute Y in roll Z' does not actually augment Y, so is not capped by Augmented Maximum. Which is why Bone Density Augmentation and its kin only increase your soak rolls, not your other Body-related rolls, and won't care about Increase Body or Possession boosts. Especially since other Core spells explicitly go 'hey this attribute-boost is capped by augmented maximum'.

(With BDA, for example, the reason it explicitly goes 'add to Body part of roll' is that AP can't touch it.)

In short: I third Pixel and Lormyr.
« Last Edit: <04-09-19/0121:42> by Michael Chandra »
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Kiirnodel

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« Reply #17 on: <04-09-19/0331:16> »
Digital Zombie, that is the Adept Power. It is written quite differently from the Detection Spell of the same name.

Mirikon is correct that the spell specifies that it adds to Reaction on Surprise Tests. But I believe (if my sentence parsing skills are up to snuff) that the comma after Surprise Tests means that the following phrase is a separate clause from the preceding one. Michael Chandra already pointed this out.

If the "adds 1 die for Reaction" descriptor were meant to apply to both the "Surprise Tests" and the "rolls made when defending..." then it wouldn't have the comma (this would be the form: [Spell] adds [Bonus] to [Attribute] on [Test] and [other Test]) In that form, both tests belong to the Attribute as the conjunction "and" turns the two things into a compound phrase belonging to the preceding part.

Because of the comma, it separates the phrases and means that the "and also" is continuing the preceding list, which is what is being added to. Its a convoluted phrasing nonetheless. Probably would have been a heck of a lot easier to just say "Every hit on the Spellcasting Test adds 1 die on Surprise Tests and Defense tests against ranged and melee attacks"
No idea why it needs to specify "Reaction on Surprise" or uses a long-winded way to say defending...
 

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #18 on: <04-09-19/0357:56> »
Yeah, it'd only make sense if Matrix/Astral Surprise tests existed that somehow do not involve Reaction.
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JudgeMonroe

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« Reply #19 on: <04-09-19/1714:52> »
Technically, Initiative, Astral Initiative and Matrix Initiative are 3 separate entities and your Initiative modifiers would then not work on the other two. So with that difference explicitly made in tables, it sounds like a set of Wired Reflexes won't make a Decker faster, and the Increase/Improved Reflexes spell/power sound like they won't help astrally.

Combat Sense could work on any surprise tests in the astral, but Astral attacks are not Ranged/Melee Attacks so sounds like Combat Sense would give no bonus there.

At the table, everyone rolls initiative based on what they're currently perceiving (Meatspace, AR, VR, Astral) and not based on what they plan on *doing*.

A rigger with wired reflexes rolls 2D6 initiative, and then on his first action switches to cold sim VR. According to "Changing Initiative" (page 160) he adds 2D6 to his initiative. He also has to replace his base score R+I with DP+I and figure out when he acts next. That's some brutal paperwork.

Does he also subtract the 1D6 bonus from his Wired Reflexes? The rules are a lot less clear on this point. If the rigger subsequently drops back to AR perception, he does remove the coldsim +2D6 from his initiative (and goes back to R+I instead of DP+I, *sigh*). It sounds like you advocate that RAI is that any bonus to "Initiative" would be lost when switching to, say, "Matrix Initiative" which increases the paperwork. Okay. So do you subtract 1D6 then add 2D6 or just add 1D6? What if someone doses him with Kamikaze (+2D6 Initiative Dice) while he's in cold-sim? The mind boggles.

Then there's the question of whether an ordinary dude with a commlink and AR perception has a Persona. If he does, Calibration (Kill Code 37) increases that dude's "current Initiative Score" with no caveat that it needs to be Matrix Initiative ... so there's a Matrix Action increasing someone else's Initiative Score which could presumably then be used on a non-Matrix Action. If that dude is a mage, does he lose those Calibration points if he shifts to Astral? What if he were already there?

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #20 on: <04-09-19/1743:34> »
Then there's the question of whether an ordinary dude with a commlink and AR perception has a Persona.
Quote
AUGMENTED REALITY
[...]Your persona can go anywhere in the Matrix using
this view.[...]
When in AR, you use your normal Initiative and Initiative
Dice.

You're asking 'do I add X dice and subtract Y dice initiative score', but it doesn't strike me as a proper question. The rules you reference are very clear after all. You have a certain amount of initiative dice in mode A. You switch to mode B, which has a different amount. The rules are very explicit that if you gain/lose dice, you roll the extra or the loss.

Rather than arguing about 'would we add AND subtract', the proper argument to make would be 'hey, page 159 talks about Base vs Total and page 160 only talks about Base', at which point my counter-argument would be 'the subtract part drops the word Base, and the increase part doesn't mention what drugs / activating wired reflexes / other forms of gaining extra dice during turns do, so I'm going to go with 'changes to TOTAL initiative dice are processed and the stressing of Base dice is a poor choice'.'
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JudgeMonroe

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« Reply #21 on: <04-09-19/1837:12> »
Then there's the question of whether an ordinary dude with a commlink and AR perception has a Persona.
Quote
AUGMENTED REALITY
[...]Your persona can go anywhere in the Matrix using
this view.[...]
When in AR, you use your normal Initiative and Initiative
Dice.

You're asking 'do I add X dice and subtract Y dice initiative score', but it doesn't strike me as a proper question. The rules you reference are very clear after all. You have a certain amount of initiative dice in mode A. You switch to mode B, which has a different amount. The rules are very explicit that if you gain/lose dice, you roll the extra or the loss.

Rather than arguing about 'would we add AND subtract', the proper argument to make would be 'hey, page 159 talks about Base vs Total and page 160 only talks about Base', at which point my counter-argument would be 'the subtract part drops the word Base, and the increase part doesn't mention what drugs / activating wired reflexes / other forms of gaining extra dice during turns do, so I'm going to go with 'changes to TOTAL initiative dice are processed and the stressing of Base dice is a poor choice'.'

In other words, RAW says drugs and wired reflexes can make a decker faster in VR, so Improved Reflexes should make a character faster in Astral. Your counter argument doesn't suggest that you would remove previous active bonuses from initiative dice when changing modes, which is the case I was trying to illustrate with "add AND subtract" ("-1D6 because wired reflexes no longer provide a bonus and +2D6 because cold sim" or whatever). The missing rule is one that ties *bonuses* to Initiative Types, which Calibration takes to an absurd result, IMO ("I overclocked your commlink, now you can shoot faster").

Marcus

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« Reply #22 on: <04-09-19/1847:41> »
Wired would work for AR as that's meat world initiative you just suffer The distraction penalty. But wired has no effect for VR, Matrix initiative is separate  (p 229 core) and is not effected by reaction at all. (Data processing + Int).

Wired also won't effect Astral Initiative (p 313 core).

Now Drugs, Combat drugs won't work on ether a drug that boosts Int works, but it's not gonna add dice, those dice come from the state.   
« Last Edit: <04-09-19/2329:26> by Marcus »
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Cabral

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« Reply #23 on: <04-09-19/2204:29> »
Mirikon is correct that the spell specifies that it adds to Reaction on Surprise Tests. But I believe (if my sentence parsing skills are up to snuff) that the comma after Surprise Tests means that the following phrase is a separate clause from the preceding one. Michael Chandra already pointed this out.
Page 286 "Every hit on the Spellcasting Test adds 1 die for Reaction on Surprise Tests."
The spells adds 1 DIE FOR Reaction on Surprise tests, not TO Reaction. Both the capitalization of "reaction" and the use of "die for" instead of "to" make RAW/RAI questionable.

I think the intent is fairly clear that it is a bonus to the surprise test in situations where you are reacting. It helps you avoid surprise, but does not help surprise others. If it added 1 to Reaction, the augmented limit would apply.

Key considerations
  • It adds dice, not a numerical value.
  • It adds for Reaction.
  • Reaction is capitalized.
  • Unrelated: page 192 specifies that anyone under the effects of the spell or the adept power always get a perception test for surprise, but only the adept power mentions this.
The first two bullets support that it is a bonus to the test, not the attribute.
The third bullet supports that it is a bonus to the attribute, not to the test. Please keep in mind, however, that no other place (at least that I can recall) words a bonus to an attribute in this fashion.

Assuming that it is correct that it is a bonus to the test, it would have been cleaner to say "...adds 1 die to avoid being surprised" or "... adds 1 die on Surprise Tests when defending."

Kiirnodel

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« Reply #24 on: <04-10-19/0417:44> »
Cabral,
I'm not sure there is an inherent distinction for them using the word "for" in this instance. The fact that "Reaction" is capitalized (in my mind) means that it is referring to the attribute, not a generic reacting to surprise.


JudgeMonroe,
While Astral, you cannot be affected by Physical spells, so Increase Reflexes does not work, full stop.
In regard to your question about how to handle the bookkeeping of initiative changes, it is probably easier to look at what is changing about the values rather than trying to recalculate everything from scratch each time.

Easy Spell Example: A magician casts an Increase Reflexes spell to enhance their initiative. They get 5 hits, which means they get 2 extra dice and +5 bonus initiative. They immediately roll those extra dice (getting a total of 6) and thus their current initiative immediately increases by 11. Later on, the spell gets countered, reducing the hits by 3, so they lose some of that effectiveness, the bonus has dropped by 3 points and 1 extra die. After rolling a 5 (ouch), they get a total of 8, so their current initiative would immediately drop by 8. If they dropped the spell entirely it would drop again by whatever that last die roll would be and two more.

Real World to Matrix Example: A rigger starts out in the real world, driving their car the good ol' fashioned way. When the drek hits the turbine they drop into VR to start rigging a drone instead. If they are switching to Cold Sim with no extra effects, and had 2d6 dice in the real world (like in your example), their dice are increasing by 1 die (from 2d6 to 3d6). Additionally, we would want to know the difference between their Reaction and their Data Processing on their device they are accessing the Matrix with. Assuming a DP of 6 and a Reaction of 7, with a roll of 3, this means their initiative would change by +2 (+3 from dice, and -1 from Reaction to Data Processing). Nothing else is changing so there isn't any reason to over-complicate things. IF they then switched to Hot-Sim then they would just add one more die. Or if they switched back to Meat-space then we would roll the dice they are losing (2 dice if we continue from Hot Sim) and give them back that +1 for their Reaction being 1 higher than Data Processing.

JudgeMonroe

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« Reply #25 on: <04-10-19/1153:50> »
Quote
In regard to your question about how to handle the bookkeeping of initiative changes, it is probably easier to look at what is changing about the values rather than trying to recalculate everything from scratch each time.

I think this depends on what ends up being less work. Sometimes it's probably easier to generate a whole new initiative score and subtract 10 for each IP already consumed. But the paperwork isn't really the point of my experiment, it's the hole in the rules that lets this thread grow to 2 pages in the first place, and whether what everyone seems to think is an obvious common sense approach reduces to absurdity or not.

I'm willing to throw rules away that are obviously incorrect or printed in error (is Astral Initiative 2D6 or 3D6? Don't answer that.) but there are times when the rules are simply quiet. In the case of Initiative, it is a problem that they forgot to put Typed Bonuses into the rules at the same time they put in Typed Initiative, which is one reason charts like the one on page 159 list "Rigging AR" and "Matrix AR" as separate types of Initiative even though they're exactly the same and there's never any (AFAIK) distinction between the two in any other rules or bonus. If you were going to put in Typed Bonuses then it would make sense to refer to them as separate Initiative Types. But I digress.

A common sense reading says that if the word "Initiative" is used alone in a rule, then it should refer to standard, meat-world, base Physical Initiative. Wired Reflexes, street drugs, physical spells, etc., all affect Physical Initiative and you should lose these bonuses if you switch to a different Initiative Type according to the Changing Initiative rules. Those rules don't actually say you lose these bonuses (or any bonuses) when you change initiative types, only that you adjust initiative according to the new base values or wound modifiers. So we're already in RAI or House Rule territory.

Then there's the complication of Mixed Initiative. A user with Matrix AR (or Rigging AR) Initiative can take Physical or Matrix actions on his turn. Physical and both AR Initiative Types are calculated in the same way, and switching from Physical to AR doesn't trigger a change in Initiative calculation unless you take away the Physical bonuses. Why would you, though? The character can still take physical actions on his turn, or he can take a Matrix Action. You're stuck saying that either Wired Reflexes benefit a Matrix Action or that they stop working when you use AR.

Does a dual-natured character switch to Astral Initiative when he begins perceiving the Astral? It's effectively the same as switching to AR. He can still take physical actions when doing so, but can engage in Astral Combat at the same time. But on what Initiative and with what bonuses? Either he keeps his Physical Initiative (and benefits from those bonuses on Astral Tasks) or switches (and loses those bonuses on Physical Tasks).

Am I incorrect? What in RAW solves the Mixed Initiative problem?

Kiirnodel

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« Reply #26 on: <04-10-19/1701:01> »
There is no Matrix AR initiative. You use your normal physical initiative. You even quoted it earlier: "When in AR, you use your normal Initiative and Initiative
Dice."

You don't use your normal initiative in situations where your consciousness is separated from your body. In VR, you've detached your mind from your body and are using the speed of the Matrix. Likewise, when you Astrally Project, you are no longer interacting with your physical body. In situations where you are interacting with both, you are still using your normal initiative.

Edit: And yes, things that add to normal Initiative do not, by default, add to the special initiatives of the Matrix or Astral.
« Last Edit: <04-10-19/1702:47> by Kiirnodel »

Marcus

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« Reply #27 on: <04-10-19/2351:00> »
A dual-nature person perceives both and is uses normal initiative. Their initiative will only change upon projecting into astral.

Judge the answers to your questions are found on page 160 of the core Section titled Changing Initiative.
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Cabral

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« Reply #28 on: <04-11-19/2057:33> »
Cabral,
I'm not sure there is an inherent distinction for them using the word "for" in this instance. The fact that "Reaction" is capitalized (in my mind) means that it is referring to the attribute, not a generic reacting to surprise.
I completely see that point of view. If SR was as carefully worded (and edited) as 3.5 DnD or if the pattern was not completely divergent from standards (both in the sense of modifying attributes and modifying tests), I would agree with you. I think either way you side, you have a good basis for the ruling. Reaction is capitalized, but you are adding dice, which only add to tests, not attributes.

I thought I put that caveat in the original post, but I must have edited it out and forgotten to add it back in.  ;D

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #29 on: <04-13-19/0302:00> »
There is no Matrix AR initiative. You use your normal physical initiative. You even quoted it earlier: "When in AR, you use your normal Initiative and Initiative
Dice."

You don't use your normal initiative in situations where your consciousness is separated from your body. In VR, you've detached your mind from your body and are using the speed of the Matrix. Likewise, when you Astrally Project, you are no longer interacting with your physical body. In situations where you are interacting with both, you are still using your normal initiative.

Edit: And yes, things that add to normal Initiative do not, by default, add to the special initiatives of the Matrix or Astral.
Mind you, the rules could be a tad clearer (like the base-dice thingy), to the point where we can obviously even debate over RAW, nevermind RAI. But yeah, these 3 are noted as very specifically different kinds of Initiative under the rules.

The consciousness-statement you're providing is quite nice, since it illustrates the difference between AR and VR, as well as Dual-Natured vs fully-Astral.
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