NEWS

[SR5] Chrome Flesh Modular Limbs

  • 4 Replies
  • 1417 Views

Cabral

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 85
« on: <03-27-19/1930:45> »
How do you expect modular cyber limbs to be handled? I reported an issue with Chummer based on Wakshaani's explanation and got pulled into a discussion of whether Wakshaani's post is valid or not. Rather than debate it there, I am posting here.

Quote from: Chrome Flesh, p88
Modular Limb
Any cyberlimb may be purchased with a modular connector, allowing it to be connected to another modular connector.

Quote from: Chrome Flesh, p89
[Cyberware[Essence
Modular limb
  Hand/foot0.25
  Partial arm/leg 0.45
  Full arm/leg1.0

For reference, Wakshaani is one of the authors of Chrome Flesh.
You have two basic options:

Get a modular connector installed on your body, paying out Essence, at which point you can use normal cyberlimbs and swap them when you want (the limbs have full capacity and whatnot fo rthe type that you get)

*or*

buy Modular Cyberlimbs, which have a reduced capacity due to having the modular connector built into -them- rather than your flesh.

SO!

The Modular Limbs all have a lil' less Capacity than normal, to take that into account. A modular -wrist- lets you attach normal hands, while a modular -hand- has a little less capacity but doesn't cost you that connector Essence.

if that makes sense.

I should have taken way more space to lay out some examples, but, Chrome Flesh is *bulging* with stuff, and I was killin' my word budget, even without the missing Chrome Kings section.

(incidently, Tater Tot, found in the story before the drones section of Rigger 5, has a modular cyberarm. Should anyone want to see one in action to a limited degree.)

I'll try and cover the modular bits on Wednesday. The short form is that modular parts reduce the capacity of the arm significantly, which in and of itself *should* have made the issue moot, but, armor slipped through. I'll have to get that corrected in the official read.

A modular limb with removable parts has teh overall Capacity lessened by the removed part, plus a tad more for the modular connector. A full modular arm which has 15 capacity that has a modular elbow will then have this setup:

FULL ARM - Capacity 2
LOWER ARM - Capacity 10

If you add a modular wrist to that, you get:

FULL ARM - Capacity 2
LOWER ARM - Capacity 5
HAND - Capacity 4

If you have a partial modular limb with a modular wrist, you get:

LOWER ARM - capacity 3
HAND - capacity 4

Any upgrades you take on the "higher" part of the limb "flow down" to the rest. Thus, if you take +2 Str on ther Upper Arm, that strength boost 'flows down' to the rest of the arm. This applies to Agility and Armor as well (Thus, Rating 3 Armor on the upper arm 'flows down' to the rest of the arm.)

You don't have to buy the "higher" upgrade for the lower, but this also means that you can't stack upgrades (+3 Strength upper arm, +3 more lower, +3 hand, I AM AN ARM-WRESTLING GOD!) ... they're already "there", so you can't add more.

The main use of a modular limb is to switch out parts. You might have a gun hand with an Agility boost and a gyro-stabilizer, a 'melee hand' with a handblade and a strength boost, a flamethrower hand (because that's just cool), and a synthetic hand for socializing. (Yes, synthetic parts can be modular, but they're clearly not going to pass for the real thing when you've switched them out for a tool!)

If you just take a modular joint (Shoulder, elbow/wrist), then, yes, you lose Essence for the limb that attaches to it, but that whole limb comes with standard Capacity, instead of the modular versions which have a little less. In return, you pay a lil' more Essence. (Thus, if you take a Modular Shoulder and a CYberarm, you gave up 1.3 Essence, but your limb has a full 15 Capacity, rather than the reduced level a Modular limb would.)

So, modular joint + limb = more 'power' at a greater cost, modular limb = less powerful but less Essence.

Hopefully, this makes it more clear? If not, keep the questions flowing.

My stance is that Wakshaani is clarifying the Chrome Flesh content and that his statements are consistent with the fact that modular limbs have an essence cost, while accessories for other cyberware (such as telescopic limbs and ocular drones) do not have an essence cost and instead may have a capacity cost.

The other poster appears to be basing his stance on the phrase "allowing it to be connected to another modular connector," suggesting that it excludes the possibility that a modular limb can be a complete package (having both sides of the connector).

As a workaround for Chummer, I have created a custom rule that adds "installed modular limbs" and added it to the issue. If you want to use my workaround with Chummer, download the zipped XML file I uploaded to the issue and put it in a new subfolder in the customdata subfolder of Chummer. You can then go to the custom rules of Chummer and enable the option (will appear as the folder name you created) to access "installed modular" limbs.

What about everyone else? What do you use/expect at your tables?

&#24525;

  • *
  • Guest
« Reply #1 on: <03-28-19/0003:16> »
It begins!!!  ;D

Chummer 5 is Alive

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 349
« Reply #2 on: <03-28-19/0011:58> »
The formal stance of the dev team is that we write to what's in the OEL books as published by CGL or in errata that is marked as Official, either in a forum thread or in the errata PDFs. What he intended to write is - as far as our development process is concerned - irrelevant until it gets flagged as errata.

As for RAW, we are provided with two pieces of cyberware; the Modular Connector, which allows for the quick mounting and dismounting of modular limbs. and the Modular Limb, which as described is a cyberlimb that can be connected to a Modular Connector. Not that it has an integrated modular connector as Wakshaani apparently intended, that it can be connected to one. No cost or availability change is provided for making a standard cyberlimb modular, so there is no content that indicates to us that that can be done.

I will concede that the implementation of connectors is a little bit rocky in that the connector itself has the whole essence loss of the connector and the limb and the modular limb itself has zero Essence but that's largely a matter of practicality on our part. I didn't feel comfortable with the idea that removing an arm costs 0 essence, installing a modular connector in the same point costs .3, but then connecting a limb to it costs an additional Essence and then leaves an essence hole when removed.

Finally, your customdata change will not work the way you want it to. You won't be able to detach the limb, attach a new one and have it change your stats, because you're missing a <mountsto> node on each that tells Chummer that the limb starts detached and that it's allowed to have the limb connect to a mount. Essence will decrease for each additional modular limb you purchase, because as far as Chummer's concerned you're installing them into your body. HOWEVER, what you will find is that if you were to install a cyberlimb onto a modular connector using the mountsto node, your Essence would go back up, even in career mode.

tl;dr There are no rules that state that regular cyberlimbs are able to be mounted to modular connectors and we implemented the rules provided to us in the least insane way possible.

Cabral

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 85
« Reply #3 on: <03-28-19/0137:23> »
It begins!!!  ;D
What begins?

The formal stance of the dev team is that we write to what's in the OEL books as published by CGL or in errata that is marked as Official, either in a forum thread or in the errata PDFs. What he intended to write is - as far as our development process is concerned - irrelevant until it gets flagged as errata.
...
tl;dr There are no rules that state that regular cyberlimbs are able to be mounted to modular connectors and we implemented the rules provided to us in the least insane way possible.
Thank you for the detail response on the development team's process. I appreciate the insight and as I mentioned in the initial issue, I would be happy to make the bug report into a feature request instead. Also, I appreciate the tip on the issues with the implementation. I am trying to figure out how to incorporate house rules into Chummer and provide the best guidance for my group to make characters quickly in the next session (except for my wife, everyone is new to Shadowrun). I suppose, if anyone uses modular limbs, I will have to use the connector with a reduced essence cost.

However, I opened the thread with the intention of separating the discussion of what the rules are and how everyone handles them. I take it that at your table, outside of your development efforts,  you handle modular limbs as requiring a modular connector and their essence cost is irrelevant (supplanted by the connector)?

I read it the same way initially and thought it was a bit ridiculous, driving up essence costs of cyberlimbs needlessly. When I read Wakshaani's post, it made more sense. The wireless bonus is the only portion of the Modular Connector that is explicitly restricted to modular limbs. The opening sentence implies that connectors are restricted to modular limbs, but the rest of the section discusses limbs, not modular limbs. I think there is wiggle room in the interpretation of RAW and a clarification from the author is sufficient. I can see where you think it requires errata. I don't consider Shadowrun a strictly cleanly worded, RAW is RAI game.
« Last Edit: <03-28-19/0154:41> by Cabral »

Cabral

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 85
« Reply #4 on: <04-14-19/2313:33> »
It begins!!!  ;D
What begins?
Apparently, nothing.

Anyway, I wound up with two options based on how Chummer works. One where I ban all modular limbs and one where I revert the modular connector costs to that of the base limbs (ie, 1 Essence for the shoulder/hip connector). Secondarily, I would have to ban digigrade legs as a modular leg enhancement or eliminate their essence cost.

Anyway, the actual Chummer behavior is not relevant to this discussion of the interpretation of an author's comments that have not made it into actual errata. There doesn't seem  to be any interest in this discussion, but if anyone is interested in customdata files for the above, I can make them available.