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Continued debate with Hobbes?

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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #15 on: <04-13-20/1242:32> »
A Force 9 Kindred Spirit rolls 18 dice, so even if you use Edge against it, with 18 dice you'd still have only about ~50% chance to score services. And the drain is very dangerous, resisting nearly-6 drain on average will hurt a lot. And it's not as many as you want, if you have Magic 9 you're still capped at only 3, that's what, 6 buff-spells max? With Magic 6 you'd be able to only get 2, which means 4 buff spells if you're lucky.

Also, TMs are nice, but a Decker or Rigger will get less benefit from Increase Attribute spells, and a Street Sam is screwed, due to the threshold depending on your Essence.

I rolled 8 hits on 10 dice 2x in 6 summons, the Mage really regretted that.
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #16 on: <04-13-20/1307:36> »
You don't need force 9 any more.  6 force 3 spirits cast and sustain 6 spells, rather than the lone F9's 3.

Edit: Actually, forgot to factor in that 1 spell now buffs EVERY attribute.  So, yeah.  A single F6 is probably enough to suck all those sustaining penalties and buff bot all by itself.
« Last Edit: <04-13-20/1311:02> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Hobbes

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« Reply #17 on: <04-13-20/1327:21> »
And the Force 3's should have enough services that you can simply re-roll the bad buff rolls until you're happy.  And such small drain you can simply re-summon if you get a long string of bad rolls.

And if you're a Hermetic using and abusing Analytical mind you're actually generating Edge.  Even without Analytical mind Spirit Affinity and a complimentary Mentor Spirit bonus will go a long way.  Stack all three and that Force 9 isn't really that big of a deal if you can re-roll several of the GM hits for no net cost of Edge.  Re-roll most, if not all, of them if you're willing to toss a few of your own chips in.

Then once play starts and you actually get around to bonding your Foci...  Force 9 with 4+ Services and a horde of Force 3's buffing it.  Wheeee!  Stompy!  Stomp!  Stomp!  Oh, did the rest of you want to play?  Sorry, Mage won at chargen because I can turn invisible and move 90 Meters with a minor action and cast undetectable spells.  Hope the GM remembered to put up some big wards.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #18 on: <04-13-20/1345:43> »
Heh.  A house rule I've always fantasized about using in 5e is to cap all dice pools at 18.  Hard cap.  No exceptions.  None.  Never had the chance to really try it though, since I play SRM.  It'd shift system mastery from "how big a dice pool can I get" to "how many different dice pools of 18 can I get".  And IMO the game would be immensely more balanced/fun.

Such a house rule still might work (or be needed, depending on POV) in 6we, too. Heh.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #19 on: <04-13-20/1357:23> »
The sustaining penalties would make it impossible for a single spirit to handle all those buffs.
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Hobbes

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« Reply #20 on: <04-13-20/1503:10> »
Concealment (effectively Invisibility in 6E) and Movement, two services from the Force 9 leaving you a couple to do terrible things.  Multiple Force 3's sustaining Increased Reflexes on the Mage and the Force 9 Spirit.  Whatever sustain the mage may get from Focused Concentration and leftover Force 3's for whatever other buffs you want.  You'd only need Focused Concentration 2 to handle your two drain stats, or just be patient.  Whatever minor buffs the little guys manage are gravy.

Seems easily doable out of the gate.  Likely with very little to no Drain or Edge costs.  I'm willing to be wrong, but it looks achievable.     

Finstersang

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« Reply #21 on: <04-13-20/1852:16> »
But, personally, yes I say frag that.  One spell's +4 Willpower overwrites the previous spell's +4 Intuition because they're overlapping instances of the same spell even though the bonuses are different.
The reason I disagree with that is that what was likely done as a simplification and small buff of the system, now has turned into a punishment instead, because a player is not given a choice or alternative. Basically you're saying 'Frag you, you'll just have to wait for the Magic book to arrive so you can make custom spells to get past this arbitrary introduction I'm introducing just because I dislike Mages'. That seems like an unfair act which seems purely motivated by anti-mage hate, while not publicly indicating that, thus tainting newcomers their view on what they should use as rules.

Also: What's the benefit? You're basically nerfing the entire spell just to prevent mages from buffing 2 attributes, all because of a single Quality? If you care about that quality so much, why aren't you nerfing that in your houserules, instead of ruining a buff-tactic and buff-builds?

Who says that the specialized versions of the spell should return in a supplement? Kinda defeats the whole point.

Itīs not about "punishing mages", itīs about putting a stop to

  • That 20+ Soak dice Benchmark (which would also allow for more reasonable Drain levels)
  • Putting a stop to every mage having an almost identical set of "must-have" spells.

TBH, I donīt really think that Focused Concentration is that overpowered. There are other ways of removing sustaining penalties. The problem is and always has been the option to add +8 Drain dice with just two (and now, just one) spell. Itīs a no-brainer setup. Itīs the Magicrun equivalent of Attributes A at chargen. Since the previous 4th Edition, every "properly build" mage absolutetely needed to have Increase Willpower, Increase [Drain Attribute], Increase Reflexes, plus the necessary Fokus/Qualites/Spirit loadout to keep it sustained. And itīs this standard "morning routine" buff setup that turned drain into a joke in 5th Edition and lead to the punishing drain levels of 6th Edition, where a mage will likely deal more damage with a Fireball to himself then to its targets.

On the other hand, I actually like the fact that the versatility of Increase Attribute had been increased by merging the 8 different Spells together - as long as its restricted to one spell per target. Thatīs a fair deal and also scratches an itch that has been itching since 2 Editions.

How is that "ruining mages"? Talking about hyperbole here. Itīs a legitimate restriction that every other buff spell already has (and thus, might actually have been RAI after all). It only nerfs one overused tactic, but at the same time, it makes space for more interesting options. It adds an incentive for mages to either use a more diverse self-buff loadout and/or spreading their share managable Increase Attribute spells over different party members. Hooray for the new versatility! Everyone gets the buff they need! Is that really so unappealing? In fact, Increase Attribute would still be a must-have even with the added restriction. And if somethingīs a must-have even in its "nerfed" state, thatīs very good sign that said nerf is justified.
« Last Edit: <04-13-20/1920:39> by Finstersang »

Lormyr

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« Reply #22 on: <04-13-20/1950:57> »
I do take solace in how easy it is to knock spells down now via Dispelling.  THAT helps reduce the Increase Attribute stat inflation.  And that in turn gives more value to paying nuyen/essence for stat boosts via augmentations.

I agree that in 5e magic buffs were entirely too good, but the dispel friendly rules of 6e, combined with the lack of good buff options present, really makes it a non issue. For example, your 5e god mages have gone from sustained / quickened:

Armor
Astral Armor
Combat Sense
Deflection
Detect Life, Extended
[Element] Aura
Hawkeye
Increase Attribute x7
Increase Reflexes
Levitate
Oxygenate
Prophylaxis
Radiation Shield
Spatial Sense, Extended

. . .that was very hard to dispel and probably caused you to explode if you did manage to, to:

Increase Attribute x7
Increase Reflexes

. . .that probably has roughly even chances of successfully being dispelled, and not exploding from the drain of doing so to boot.
« Last Edit: <04-13-20/1955:54> by Lormyr »
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Hobbes

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« Reply #23 on: <04-14-20/0910:08> »
I don't think Dispelling is by any means "Easy".  Magic plus Sorcery is typically 12 dice, vs. Double the Drain value of the spell.  Net hits reduce hits on the spell.  It'll typically take multiple actions to knock out something like Increased Reflexes.  Increased Attribute, even with 2 hits, is going to resist with 10 dice.

Dispelling is going to take multiple Major Actions to remove a single sustained spell most of the time (Edge/Good rolls/Bad rolls notwithstanding).  That's worse action economy than hacking in combat.

You could probably re-cast the buffs faster than the other mage could knock them down in many cases.

While you can certainly build an NPC mage specialized in Dispelling and get a large enough dice pool to knock out most sustains with just one Major Action, you're still just breaking even as far as Action Economy goes.  I'll take that exchange every time.  Knock out a couple buff spells instead of a pair of Fireballs into the team or summoning and ordering a high Force Spirit to do terrible things?  Done.

18 Dice specialized into Dispelling instead of melting faces?  As a player I'm calling that a win.

Granted, Dispelling is better than it was in 5e, but it's still not a "good" tactical option in most cases.  Mind Control/Fireball/Conjure a Spirit are still more worrisome as a PC.

Lormyr

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« Reply #24 on: <04-14-20/1342:35> »
Increase attribute's drain value caps out at drain 6 (12 dice), and increase reflexes 8 (16 dice). Few other spells are worth bothering to sustain or quicken at present. So sure, at char gen level, your odds are 50/50 or a bit worse, but that math quickly favors the dispeller as characters advance.

But yeah, I agree. Why dispel when you can incapacitate or kill? If you have that option it is superior. In some cases, you may need to axe the buffs before you can reliably hit or effect a character though. This is less likely in 6e than 5e, but can still happen with certain builds.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #25 on: <04-14-20/1521:02> »
I tend to look at things from the lens of being on the GM side of things.

Will players find dispelling something they're better off doing rather often?  Granted, no.

Will security mages have great use for dispelling buffs off the players?  Hells to the yes.  Especially since the whole planar barrier/grounding thing is almost completely undefined in this edition.  Not only is it perfectly legal, it might even be intended for an astrally projecting mage to just keep picking spells off intruders.  If you want to do something about it to stop him, you have to start perceiving/projecting yourself, and thereby open yourself up to attack...
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Xenon

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« Reply #26 on: <04-19-20/0525:06> »
So the general consensus seem to be that not only would it be OK to cast the Improved Attribute spell up to 8 times on the same subject, during one single test you would also not have to pick and choose which Improved Attribute spell to use and they would all stack with each other at all times with no restrictions at all. That if someone shoot at you, you would benefit from both Improved Attribute spell that increased Reaction as well as Improved Attribute spell that increased Intuition. And when you later soak the damage against the same attack you also benefit from Improved Attribute spell that increased Body. If you resist drain from a spell you would benefit from both Improved Attribute spell that increased Willpower as well as Improved Attribute that increased the Tradition attribute at the same time in the same test.

I guess this also mean you agree that it would be OK to freely stack the same Elemental Armor Spell multiple times on the same target as well, potentially granting immunity to burning status (as well as extra DR), immunity to zapped status effect (as well as extra DR), immunity to the corrosive status effect (as well as extra DR) and immunity to the chilled status effect (as well as extra DR) - all at the same time. That not only can you have the same affecting you multiple times, you also don't have to pick or choose one of them at any give defense situation, they all just simply stack...?

Interesting... :-)

Time to update my post in the House Rule thread.
« Last Edit: <04-19-20/0556:28> by Xenon »

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #27 on: <04-19-20/0559:14> »
Unless you can quote the explicit point where someone said 'multicasting Elemental Armor with different elements on someone, means stacking the DR boosts', it's a rotten debate trick to claim that's what they meant. If you want to have a fair debate, you know better than to put words in people's mouths. Hyperbole to try to make your point, doesn't suit you at all and is a Reddit move, not a decent move.
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #28 on: <04-19-20/0606:30> »
Nasty debate aside, I can't wait for spell modification. I really would prefer being able to stack multiple Elemental Heals into a single spell. And at least spell modification will take care of this whole 'but it's the same spell!' nonsense.
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Hobbes

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« Reply #29 on: <04-19-20/0710:27> »
So the general consensus seem to be that not only would it be OK to cast the Improved Attribute spell up to 8 times on the same subject, during one single test you would also not have to pick and choose which Improved Attribute spell to use and they would all stack with each other at all times with no restrictions at all. That if someone shoot at you, you would benefit from both Improved Attribute spell that increased Reaction as well as Improved Attribute spell that increased Intuition. And when you later soak the damage against the same attack you also benefit from Improved Attribute spell that increased Body. If you resist drain from a spell you would benefit from both Improved Attribute spell that increased Willpower as well as Improved Attribute that increased the Tradition attribute at the same time in the same test.

I guess this also mean you agree that it would be OK to freely stack the same Elemental Armor Spell multiple times on the same target as well, potentially granting immunity to burning status (as well as extra DR), immunity to zapped status effect (as well as extra DR), immunity to the corrosive status effect (as well as extra DR) and immunity to the chilled status effect (as well as extra DR) - all at the same time. That not only can you have the same affecting you multiple times, you also don't have to pick or choose one of them at any give defense situation, they all just simply stack...?

Interesting... :-)

Time to update my post in the House Rule thread.

If you cast Elemental Armor 4 times picking a different element each time you have the four elemental protections and you buff you Defensive Rating by whatever the highest total was.  Increase Attribute (targeting Reaction) and Increase Reflexes stack up to the +4 Augmentation limit, pretty sure they did in 5e too. 

The general rule seems to be: Same Buff improving different things all work together.  Same buff on the same thing, pick the best.  Different buffs on the same thing, stack unless the description says otherwise.