[Michael Chandra]

I wouldn't say wires have poorer I/O. However, if you have to connect to the Matrix through another machine, you're stacking layers. If you want to talk with your PC downstairs and it has to go through a computer in Australia first, you'll have a bigger delay.

Of course why that would get in the way of things such as the medicinal wireless bonuses I don't know.

[martinchaen]

Michael; the fluff explanation doesn't really work, though. Wired forms of communication has less overhead than wireless (come on, 300+ Gbps fiberoptics vs 40Gbps wireless), unless this has changed in 2075 somehow.

I agree on the wireless bonuses, but what gets me is that while a slaved device supposedly uses the master device for defense test, it somehow doesn't use it to connect to the matrix at large? How the hell does that make any sense whatsoever?

If I have a Rating 6 commlink, which could conceivably connect to another Rating 6 commlink 100km away (Noise 5), are we seriously suggesting that my smartgun, which is slaved to the commlink, wouldn't use said commlink to connect to the matrix (even if it had access to the matrix locally)? I would VERY much like an official comment on this, at it could potentially have a huge impact on game mechanics critical to matrix users and combat oriented characters both...

[Michael Chandra]

Michael; the fluff explanation doesn't really work, though. Wired forms of communication has less overhead than wireless (come on, 300+ Gbps fiberoptics vs 40Gbps wireless), unless this has changed in 2075 somehow.

You're still adding a second set of overhead, which likely results in the answers becoming too slow to provide you with bonus dice. Plus you're going through an OS, rather than just dealing with a device made solely for running this.

[martinchaen]

I'd argue that  that overhead (latency) doesn't matter; the communication between to computers on a LAN today is typically less than 1ms, WAY less than the time it takes to execute a free action in SR5 (<1 second, or 1000ms). Even if you routed your smartgun through every piece of gear you had, you'd be unlikely to reach latency levels that high.

And again, these are fluff arguments. The rules indicate that a slaved device uses the master device's stats for defense test, so why is it such a logical leap to also think that a slaved device would be capable of using the masters Device Rating for calculating Noise Purposes? Especially when Noise doesn't even affect said device when making defense tests? There's just a huge disconnect (heh, pun intended) as I see it between wireless and wired connectivity in SR5.

[Michael Chandra]

Yes, I gave a fluff argument because Xenon wanted me to give a fluff explanation. If you want a rule explanation on the big gap:

Yes, my theory is "we made it like this to give Hackers more openings to hack people through", like they stated in their development blog.

[Xenon]

By the way: You should carry a jammer with you anyway, since that way you can block wireless grenades. Doesn't help against motion sensor grenades though.

(Detonating a wireless triggered grenade is not a wireless bonus -except if you use the "detonate grenade"-button at the side of a wireless grenade launcher).

...unless this has changed in 2075 somehow.

60+ years from now i'd imagine quite a bit will change in the computer and telecom industry.

I agree on the wireless bonuses, but what gets me is that while a slaved device supposedly uses the master device for defense test, it somehow doesn't use it to connect to the matrix at large? How the hell does that make any sense whatsoever?

Think of it like if you have a bluetooth device connected to your laptop. If a hacker with the right tools and skills come within signal range (a few meters) he will spot your bluetooth device. There is no need to first hack your laptop to access the device. He can hack the bluetooth device directly.

It work the same way in SR5's version of Matrix 2.0 -Everything is wireless. All devices connect and route traffic for all other devices within signal range (for most devices this is about 100m) forming mesh network. In normal case you can of course only access devices you own or that you have been granted access to, but just as the bluetooth example above, there are people with the right tools and skills to hack and access your device directly. Without first having to hack your commlink.

[Xenon]

If I have a Rating 6 commlink, which could conceivably connect to another Rating 6 commlink 100km away (Noise 5), are we seriously suggesting that my smartgun, which is slaved to the commlink, wouldn't use said commlink to connect to the matrix (even if it had access to the matrix locally)?

What?

If your smartgun is wireless ON it will communicate with every device within 100m (which will communicate with every device within 100m which will communicate with every device within 100m etc. which mean your smartgun is on the mesh network we like to call The Matrix). It will also communicate with your Data Jack, your DNI and your smartlink in your cybereyes. All this mean you get the wireless bonus (eject clip or change firemode with speed of thought and a dice pool bonus to all attacks with the weapon)

That does not change if you slave the smartgun to a commlink or not......


(It did in SR4. In SR4 you slaved your device to a PAN and to access the device you first had to hack the PAN. This is not the case in SR5)

[martinchaen]

Xenon Sure, but basic laws of physics? Even with magic in the world, light is still the fastest phenomenon known to man; are you telling me that you think the developers intended to handwave a "no, we made wireless faster than the speed of light" solution?

While I agree that the device can be hacked directly (I don't think I've ever stated otherwise, so not sure why you felt the need to point that out), what I'm focusing on in this thread is the fact that apparently a device in a PAN cannot use it's master device to connect to the matrix at all. So while a device can use the stats of it's master device for defense tests (implying that you do in fact hack through the commlink, or that there is some sort of two-way communication between the two devices), tests that are not even affected by noise, that same device cannot use its master device rating to connect to the matrix in general? That, quite simply, sounds like a load of bollocks to me.

EDIT:
Xenon; that was an abstract example to show the potential signal strength of a Rating 6 device; if you were in a barren wasteland with no other mesh network devices between you and another commlink, two rating 6 commlinks are considered to be in mutual signal range (handshake or whatever it's called in SR5) as long as they are within 100km of each other...

My point is this; if I have a smartgun (rated at DR2), and that smartgun is meshed with my commlink (DR6), the smartgun should be able to connect to the matrix through my commlink if there are no other devices in range (>100 meters). Agreed?

So why is it that y'all seem to think that a smartgun can't get a matrix connection through a commlink (as long as both are owned by the same person, presumably), when that is EXACTLY how mesh networks function? Thus, using the DR of the master in your PAN makes sense when calculating noise, because all of your wireless gadgets only need to connect to the closes device (your commlink) which then connects to the next closest device, and so on and so forth until it hits "the matrix"...

To clarify, because I don't think this has gotten through:
I am NOT talking about hacking, I am talking about noise potentially knocking out wireless bonuses on items that should be able to connect to another device of higher rating but within mutual signal range to get it's Matrix connection. Is it still vulnerable to hacking; yes, but that's what the higher rated device is there for.

[Xenon]

...are you telling me that you think the developers intended to handwave a "no, we made wireless faster than the speed of light" solution?

How would you explain that you get a wireless bonus if you connect your smartgun wireless to your data jack but not if you connect your smartgun with a cable

While I agree that the device can be hacked directly (I don't think I've ever stated otherwise, so not sure why you felt the need to point that out), what I'm focusing on in this thread is the fact that apparently a device in a PAN cannot use it's master device to connect to the matrix at all.

Because that is SR4
In SR5 devices connect to the matrix on their own.
Even if you have a master slave coupling the device will still route traffic for other devices.
The device will still transmit it's information to everyone that have access to listen to it.

To get wireless bonus the device need to be wireless ON. It is right there on p.421
If the device is wireless ON it will also be connected to the Matrix and it can also be hacked from the Matrix.

...tests that are not even affected by noise...

A defense test when you are shot by a ranged attack is not affected by ranged environmental modifiers, such as fog or dim light.

[Michael Chandra]

By the way: You should carry a jammer with you anyway, since that way you can block wireless grenades. Doesn't help against motion sensor grenades though.

(Detonating a wireless triggered grenade is not a wireless bonus -except if you use the "detonate grenade"-button at the side of a wireless grenade launcher).

Even if a strict reading of RAW would allow detonating wireless grenades, I call balooney. You need a wireless connection and if the noise exceeds the device rating, the grenade cannot communicate anymore. Unless you throw wired grenades.

@Martin: Because they don't want us to.

[Xenon]

Even if a strict reading of RAW would allow detonating wireless grenades, I call balooney. You need a wireless connection and if the noise exceeds the device rating, the grenade cannot communicate anymore. Unless you throw wired grenades.

A device rating 2 commlink can still make a phone call to the other side of the world even if there is snow. The sound quality will not be the best but all wireless devices suddenly does not stop transmitting just because it is snowing.

The only place in the book that mention anything about not working when noise exceed device rating is p.421 "Wireless Bonuses" and this pass is talking about additional wireless functionality. It talk about that your device need to be wireless ON. That it need access to the Matrix to get additional wireless functionality. That you don't get the wireless functionality it if you enter a static zone. That you don't get the wireless functionality if noise rating is greater than the items device rating...

[Michael Chandra]

Before I respond to that, please clarify what your actual point is regarding grenades. Your tangents and opinions are distracting and making it unclear what you think the rules say and what you think they should say.

[martinchaen]

Xenon; Umm, you can get the wireless bonus if the smartgun is connected to the data jack as well? Anyway, that's a WHOLE other dicussion...

Show me where it is stated that each device HAS to connect to the matrix on it's own, I dare you

From pages 215 and 216:
"commlink (‘link):The handheld or worn personal computer used by nearly everyone to access wireless services"
Used to access "wireless services", which could imply a multitude of things.

"device: A piece of gear that performs functions integral to a network"
Including networking other devices...

"drone:An unmanned vehicle that can be controlled via direct wireless link or through the Matrix"
Implies that a drone can be connected to directly or through the matrix (aka mesh)

"jackpoint:Any physical location that provides access to the Matrix through plugging in with a wired connection."
Indicates that a wireless connection is NOT needed to access the Matrix between devices

"meshed:(slang) Online, connected to the Matrix."
See above; you do not have to be wireless to be meshed...

And then on page 219, which gives us a little bit of insight into topology:
"PANS
Most individuals have multiple electronic devices on them at once, and having icons for each one show up would provide too much visual clutter in the Matrix. Often, what shows up instead is an icon representing an individual’s personal area network. This icon often looks similar to the physical device that serves as master for the network, such as a commlink, but individuals will sometimes choose a design or logo that means something to them (such as sports team logos, Concrete Dreams album covers, or corporate designs). Some devices are not merged into the single PAN icon; if an individual is carrying a wireless-enabled gun—or any other wireless device that might kill you—it will show up separately so that it can be identified rapidly. Unless, of course, the user has gone to the trouble to hide that icon, but that’ll be covered later."

Indicating that as per the network definition above, PANs could be used to connect devices to the Matrix, "if the user has gone to the trouble".

I do not see why some of you seem to think that SR4 = Mesh Topology, and that SR5 != Mesh Topology, but I can find no evidence to the contrary in the sourcebook as the overarching hierarchy of the new Matrix is not clearly defined.

As such, we can debate this topic forever, until one of the people who actually wrote the book can tell us what is and is not possible. I for one am going to go with the fact that devices can network, and as such can use each other to connect to the matrix, EVEN WHEN WIRED, as per the "jackpoint" entry. If you disagree, that's totally cool, but utlimately it'll be up to each GM to make a call on this one because the rules are quite clearly ambiguous. Otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[Michael Chandra]

The device must have its wireless mode on and be able to have access to the Matrix to get its wireless bonus. Period. I don't like it either, but that's how the rules are. There's no ambiguity, since it's clearly written on page 421. However, there is PLENTY of space for people to disagree with it and GMs to houserule it. But disagreeing with a rule doesn't mean the rule is ambiguous.

[martinchaen]

Michael, but that's exactly my argument. Let me illustrate, and make sure I've understood your argument as well.

In your view, if a smartgun (DR2) is affected by Noise 3, it looses it's wireless bonus; correct?

In my view, if a smartgun (DR2) is affected by Noise 3, it is very likely that it can connect to the commlink on my PAN (0 noise from distance, at the very least, and few of the other modifiers apply).
Thus, if my Commlink is DR6, and I have a datajack, Noise would have to equal 8 for the smartgun to lose it's Matrix connectivity and thus it's wireless bonus.

That pretty much sums up my stance.