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Bows?

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Ninja137

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« Reply #15 on: <05-16-13/1135:05> »
Just as an example here, let's grab the actual damage values.

Two examples, one with an AR and one with a bow, both assuming an Agility of 5 and a Skill of 6, specialization, smartlink, and adequate Recoil Compensation.

The AR we'll use is an Ares HVAR, firing two Long Bursts for +5 DV, total dicepool of 15 and an average of five hits for the shooter. Defender probably manages to get somewhere around 1-2 hits, so we'll assume he gets lucky and gets two hits. Base DV of 5P (Or 6S(e) if we use SnS, plus the other goodies that come with it)+5P from Long Burst +3P from Net Hits. Total damage? 13P, roughly. 14S(e) with SnS rounds, in addition to electricity damage modifiers. The second shot likely has a 1 higher DV due to the defender losing a die on the dodge test for having already been shot, so 14/15 DV. Resistances would really be dependent on our target, but if we go with a fairly standard Armor Jacket, they probably get somewhere around 2-3 hits, so we'll assume 3 hits. Total DV? 1 shot at 10P/11S(e), another shot at 11P/12S(e). Nothing requires to obtain this other than nuyen for adequate RC, which isn't really hard to get at all.

And now a Rating 6 Bow, the highest we can start with. Assuming a same dicepool of 15, we likely average 5 or so hits. Base DV on our bow is 6+2, with a maximum of 9 regardless of how well we shoot this person. Our target dodges, netting 2 hits and reducing our effective hits by 2, still enough to cap us at the damage value of 9. The target rolls to resist, netting 3 hits on oth shots, only suffering about 6S damage from a shot on average. Total possible damage? Absolute maximum of 18, most likely less.

Now, what is required to get each of these? Well, you can just straight up buy an Ares HVAR at character creation without any qualities required, only extra thing needed is to grab adequate Recoil Compensation, which isn't difficult.

What is required to do damage that is even vaguely in the same ballpark with a bow? Almost an absolute top of the line bow, two ranks of Martial Arts so we can even fire twice in a round, probably MRSI software so our shots have a better chance against armor which will require Restricted Gear to get. Total cost? Minimum of 15 BP to grab Krav Maga, Iajitsu, and Restricted Gear so we can get MRSI software, so that we can do around half the damage of an AR. The AR will do slightly less if not a High-Velocity weapon, but still easily outstrips the bow in terms of both raw damage, -AP, range, ease of acquisition, and the effort needed to get it to work.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #16 on: <05-16-13/1140:09> »
Are you going full RC on that HVAR or are you still assuming Long Bursts defy Accumulative Recoil?

And yes, a Bow won't be as good as an Assault Rifle. It is, after all, a bow. Compared to a pistol or anything else the cops won't get on your ass for, it's a decent weapon. Compared to the dangerous weapons, not a chance.

And since a bow is cheap, don't include Restricted Gear in its costs or cap it at Rating 6, just assume you're getting it after chargen.
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Ninja137

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« Reply #17 on: <05-16-13/1143:28> »
Are you going full RC on that HVAR or are you still assuming Long Bursts defy Accumulative Recoil?

And yes, a Bow won't be as good as an Assault Rifle. It is, after all, a bow. Compared to a pistol or anything else the cops won't get on your ass for, it's a decent weapon. Compared to the dangerous weapons, not a chance.
I assumed full RC, enough to compensate for the entire double burst.

It is, after all, a game. A game where, even when spending vastly more resources to even get something to work at all, you get hardly half the effectiveness. You don't gain the concealability benefit of a pistol, the ammo types of a gun, the range, the -AP mods, suppressive fire, or much at all beside a quiter weapon. I'm not saying that a Bow needs to outstrip an Assault Cannon, but it should at least be a weapon that doesn't get absolutely boned because people whined hard enough to get it nerfed because it didn't fit their idea of SR.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #18 on: <05-16-13/1150:05> »
With quickdraw, you can inflict 2x12PvB from a distance without a sound and without the enemy getting a chance to duck for cover, using nothing more than a completely street-legal weapon. You can take it with you through military checkpoints since you are, after all, just going hunting or something. It still outbeats the damage of any melee weapon at that.

If you take a militaristic one, you can smuggle it with you and put it together, then annihilate the enemy with a one-turn-kill, something not even the Barrett 121 can guarantee. So it has its upsides, really. Without Mercy software it's a nice quiet legally-transportable weapon. With Mercy software it provides other snipers with highly-capable competition. So it's quite nice already.
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Kiirnodel

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« Reply #19 on: <05-16-13/1207:11> »
The newest PDF lists bows (and arrows) as having an availability of Rating x 2.

Also, as far as what they are defending with in terms of armor, it would be Ballistic

Quote
BALLISTIC ARMOR
Ballistic armor protects against projectiles that deliver large amounts of
kinetic energy to a small area in short amounts of time, such as bullets,
bolts, and arrows.

Now, as far the maximum Strength allowed, I can't really speak for the game balance, but I think it does make sense that there is a limit to how much useable strength a bow could support. When you think about what a Strength 8 means in terms of pure power, even with advanced materials there is a limit to how much you could make a bow able to support, and this seems reasonable...

emsquared

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« Reply #20 on: <05-16-13/1236:41> »
Now, as far the maximum Strength allowed, I can't really speak for the game balance, but I think it does make sense that there is a limit to how much useable strength a bow could support. When you think about what a Strength 8 means in terms of pure power, even with advanced materials there is a limit to how much you could make a bow able to support...
Not in practical terms. The materials will always be capable of being stronger than the (Meta)human, that's not a problem even without future tech composites.

mtfeeney = Baron

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« Reply #21 on: <05-16-13/1929:46> »
On topic, I'd say that raising the strength cap for bows is a bad idea.  It makes for ridiculously powerful bows, which is ridiculous.  Back off-topic with you folks, come on.  You're comparing a bow to a high velocity assault rifle.  The only thing more ridiculous than a bow coming close to doing what that assault rifle does?  People comparing a freaking bow to an assault rifle. Let me illustrate:

Person A) Hmm... assault rifle seem weak to me.
Person B) Why do you say that?
Person A) Well, this nuclear bomb does way more damage.
Person B) Oh, but you see, assault rifles have their own benefits... availability, stealth, portability.
Person A) Sure, sure, sure, shut up.  Listen, my AR doesn't have as much damage as a nuke, no matter how much work I put into it.
Person B) ...

Really.  It's a bow.  There are limits.  Not limits to construction materials, limits to credulity.
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Angelone

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« Reply #22 on: <05-16-13/1936:41> »
I want a bow that can shoot the sun out of the sky.
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #23 on: <05-16-13/1938:16> »
That's called Trid Phantasm.
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Aryeonos

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« Reply #24 on: <05-16-13/2225:26> »
I think it's called Icarus' Revenge.
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farothel

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« Reply #25 on: <05-18-13/0719:53> »
bows can still be quite deadly.  I've seen a crossbow shoot a bolt one inch into a massive oak plate at 100 yards.  A modern (to Shadowrun standards) longbow specifically made for trolls should be able to do the same trick.  In another time that kind of bow would be called ballista  :)  And a trained mundane, unaugmented archer should be able to fire 20 shots per minute (again, personally seen it happen).  Mostly in shadowrun you don't need the long ranges of assault or sniper riffles.  Add melee hardening to your bow and you have a staff in case the enemy closes into melee range.

And with the NAN revival and the two Tirs, I assume that the bow also would get some cultural backing, making it a weapon of choice for a number of people simply for it's cultural values.
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Mirikon

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« Reply #26 on: <05-18-13/0756:32> »
The bow is also popular with nonmetahuman sapients like Centaurs and possibly Sasquatches. Unfortunately, there just isn't any ranged weapon that does well for a Pixie besides magic.
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firebug

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« Reply #27 on: <05-18-13/0817:34> »
bows can still be quite deadly.  I've seen a crossbow shoot a bolt one inch into a massive oak plate at 100 yards.  A modern (to Shadowrun standards) longbow specifically made for trolls should be able to do the same trick.  In another time that kind of bow would be called ballista  :)  And a trained mundane, unaugmented archer should be able to fire 20 shots per minute (again, personally seen it happen).  Mostly in shadowrun you don't need the long ranges of assault or sniper riffles.  Add melee hardening to your bow and you have a staff in case the enemy closes into melee range.

And with the NAN revival and the two Tirs, I assume that the bow also would get some cultural backing, making it a weapon of choice for a number of people simply for it's cultural values.

That's pretty legit.  Though of course, I'm sure a gun could do more damage to said wood plank from farther away.  I think part of the issue is that bows are a bit slower in shadowrun than they are in the hands of someone trained to use them in real life.  I don't think the issue is their damage output.  It's like with melee combat--  The damage is fine, but trying to actually accomplish something with it seems to be unintended by the rules.


I want a bow that can shoot the sun out of the sky.

Forget the others, you want Auriel's Bow.
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CanRay

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« Reply #28 on: <05-18-13/0936:05> »
Unfortunately, there just isn't any ranged weapon that does well for a Pixie besides magic.
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mtfeeney = Baron

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« Reply #29 on: <05-18-13/0948:06> »
20 shots per minute is 1 shot per combat turn.  I'm not sure why you're implying it should be faster.
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