[brasso]

One of my players has asked to create a throwing knife, which will contain a small amount of explosive, possibly in the blade, which will explode either on impact, or next round (like a grenade). He has Artisan (he makes his own knives), Armorer and Demolitions, so he is no slouch in this area.

I'm really looking for any existing guidance in this area, and possible rules ideas/ costs/ rolls for this. I have my own ideas, but I'd like to hear from the forums as there's alot of knowledge in your heads

[Mollari]

Depending on how he uses it it may conflict with rules.

1) if he wants to throw a dagger at someone dealing throwing damage, and then next round (or in the same round) send a wireless signal to detonate the grenade then he's avoiding the threshold test to place a grenade.
2) the manner of the delivery device shouldn't be allowed to interfere with the interrupt actions that are available to PCs and NPCs (right back at ya, dive for cover etc (stuff in run & gun)). So there shouldn't be an argument that "the dagger is stuck in him so cannot dive for cover etc.)
3) by mission rules you can't make multiple attacks against the same person (except solely with throwing weapons (weird I know))

Otherwise if he just cares about the look and feel of it then I don't see that it functions any different than an aerodynamic grenade.
It's a cool idea though.

Otherwise there's always GM fiat.

[忍]

Yeah, we're going to need more information regarding the player's intent.

[Marcus]

Making up rules for it isn't very complex get micro grenade, make throwing knife, insert micro grenade, find way to re-balance it.
If it's a good idea is a lot more iffy. A single knife throwing damage isn't amazing, with some fairly deep adept support, or a giant pile of strength you can get decent damage out of it. Though range maybe something of an issue.

Alchemed arrows are in many ways the same thing, initial damage and then spell activation. I agree it does push the only one attack limit in someways but iirc touch triggered alchemy arrows were legal after Hard Target. I'd go take a long look at that stuff and see how that's handled and go from there, i guess.

[Reaver]

One of my players has asked to create a throwing knife, which will contain a small amount of explosive, possibly in the blade, which will explode either on impact, or next round (like a grenade). He has Artisan (he makes his own knives), Armorer and Demolitions, so he is no slouch in this area.

I'm really looking for any existing guidance in this area, and possible rules ideas/ costs/ rolls for this. I have my own ideas, but I'd like to hear from the forums as there's alot of knowledge in your heads

There are a couple of ways to handle this, and some considerations to think about.

For the considerations, there is how grenades work. Most of the damage from a traditional grenade comes from the fragmentation of the shell of the grenade, which is generally made from lead or, low quality steel (so it can be broken apart by the charge fairly easily). High explosive grenades use a much larger charge of explosive in exchange for a thinner shell, inflicting their trauma through the pressure wave created by the charge.

Throwing knives are not just basic knives, they are made for balance and weight, so they will "flip" end over end in a quick manner, have a profile that reduces wind resistance (for range and accuracy) and are generally sharp on BOTH ends (but admittedly more blunt on the hilt side). So if there is a large amount of explosives, it will affect the weight, the balance and the profile of the throwing knives.

Now, I am not saying he can't do this, (as he has the skills to do it for sure!) but there are some items you can compare to make your own judgement call:

Micro grenades have been mentioned and could be considered, but even they are a bit big IMO.
Explosive arrows are an option and can be found in Run and Gun. However, a blade has more room for a charge then an arrowhead, so maybe a small damage increase on top of the arrow head example? 

[brasso]

Thanks guys, I don't think he's trying to do grenade / area damage, more just to really mess up the guys it's hit

From comments made though, it does sound like he's maybe trying to get 2 attacks out of one. Could just look at it as delayed extra damage though?

Just finished reading Hard Targets, I'll go back and have a look at the section

[firebug]

Keep in mind that the grenade portion will still have to be set to one of the trigger mechanisms in the book, which will complicate things.  The closest to just "I throw it and then it blows up when I hit them" will still require a Simple Action to arm the grenade for Motion Sensor in addition to the Simple Action to ready the knife, and then the Simple Action to throw it.  The same setup is required for Timer, but if he wants to save time, he can have them set up to be Wireless Link, so he can just detonate them with a free action in the same turn.  However, then they will need to be toggled to wireless, which either takes a Simple Action, or will need to be done beforehand (meaning the team hacker better have his back and be on a constant vigil lest some punk with a Sleaze Dongle hack his grenades to explode in his pocket, murdering him).

Also, I always include a "GM Beware" mention of how borked the rules for grenades are.  Be prepared to break out a calculator as you determine the damage the explosion deals to all surfaces in six directions (up down left right front back) and potentially bounces between them multiple times.  A frag grenade thrown in the second-floor hallway of a building would require you to check if it deals damage to the floor, walls, and ceiling, then if they aren't destroyed, have it reflect back and theoretically bounce again if the damage loss is enough for it to not destroy (or potentially not damage) the structure on a second hit, etc.  This is also why, for the record, flash-bang in an elevator instantly kills people (because they don't lose damage from distance, and cannot harm objects, but still bounce).

[Mirikon]

If, instead of grenades, you use Alchemical preparations instead, this works a lot easier, actually. Simple as taking a throwing knife, attaching a 'spell tag' or other type of preparation loaded with Fireball and a Command trigger to it, throwing the knife, and then issuing the command the next pass. Boom, exploding throwing knife.

This is literally the kind of thing Alchemy is best at.

[firebug]

If, instead of grenades, you use Alchemical preparations instead, this works a lot easier, actually. Simple as taking a throwing knife, attaching a 'spell tag' or other type of preparation loaded with Fireball and a Command trigger to it, throwing the knife, and then issuing the command the next pass. Boom, exploding throwing knife.

This is literally the kind of thing Alchemy is best at.

If you use debuff spells over combat spells, then it really would be using all the best aspects of alchemy.  I get the feeling that it probably wouldn't be convenient for the player to make a new character though.  If they can, though, a biofiber pocket and enchanting gloves in Hard Targets allow you to carry and handle contact preparations without triggering them.  This way you can actually carry a bunch of throwing knives prepared to cast some spell on whomever they hit.

The thing is though, this requires a huge investment of skill points, attribute points, and special attribute points for what will still be worse in combat than normal sorcery because of how restrictive it is.  Each fireball knife attack requires Throwing Weapons, Agility, Strength (for damage and range), Alchemy, and Magic.  Compared to casting a combat spell that just uses Spellcasting and Magic.  Then you take into account that each fireball knife is one less buff preparation for yourself or your teammates, and that if you don't want to use one of your limited number of special knives, you either need another combat skill (like Automatics or Spellcasting) or else you're just relying on throwing normal knives which won't be very effect.  Unless you're somehow built to be effective in combat with throwing knives already, in which case, why bother with all the alchemy junk when you coulda been an adept or a street samurai?

Alchemy is a tragic skillset.

[Sphinx]

I think the obvious comparison here is an explosive arrowhead. A basic arrow (SR5 p.424) does [Rating +2] damage, where the rating is the effective Strength of the bow. An explosive arrow (R&G p.24) adds +2 damage value. So take your basic throwing knife (SR5 p.424) at [Strength +1] damage and add an explosive charge for extra damage. A throwing knife is larger and heavier than an arrow with a much shorter range, so a larger bonus seems balanced enough. +4 DV? Don't roll a glitch.

If the player wants a standard microgrenade built into the knife hilt, I'd probably allow it, strictly as an unofficial house rule: Make the Throwing Weapons attack test as usual, but with the added threshold of an area attack -- i.e., take three hits off the top from the Throwing Weapons test for the grenade, then compare what's left to the target's defense test to determine whether the knife hits. If there are any net hits, then the knife does damage as usual [Strength +1]. Whether the knife hits or not, you can still resolve the grenade attack normally (SR5 p.181), with the usual interrupt options (R&G p.124).

You might reduce the accuracy of the explosive throwing knife depending on the Armorer skill check. A basic throwing knife uses [Physical] limit for accuracy; require 4 net hits on the Armorer test for full accuracy, and apply a -1 penalty for each hit they come up short.

[Marcus]

Also, I always include a "GM Beware" mention of how borked the rules for grenades are.  Be prepared to break out a calculator as you determine the damage the explosion deals to all surfaces in six directions (up down left right front back) and potentially bounces between them multiple times.  A frag grenade thrown in the second-floor hallway of a building would require you to check if it deals damage to the floor, walls, and ceiling, then if they aren't destroyed, have it reflect back and theoretically bounce again if the damage loss is enough for it to not destroy (or potentially not damage) the structure on a second hit, etc.  This is also why, for the record, flash-bang in an elevator instantly kills people (because they don't lose damage from distance, and cannot harm objects, but still bounce).

OH OH CHUNKY SALSA REFERENCE!!! <3
LOL

Alchemy has improved by leaps and bounds over the course of 5th, I think it's playable. Maybe not my first choice of concept mind you, but if I was making my green arrow clone you can bet on it turning some heads.

[Mirikon]

If, instead of grenades, you use Alchemical preparations instead, this works a lot easier, actually. Simple as taking a throwing knife, attaching a 'spell tag' or other type of preparation loaded with Fireball and a Command trigger to it, throwing the knife, and then issuing the command the next pass. Boom, exploding throwing knife.

This is literally the kind of thing Alchemy is best at.

If you use debuff spells over combat spells, then it really would be using all the best aspects of alchemy.  I get the feeling that it probably wouldn't be convenient for the player to make a new character though.  If they can, though, a biofiber pocket and enchanting gloves in Hard Targets allow you to carry and handle contact preparations without triggering them.  This way you can actually carry a bunch of throwing knives prepared to cast some spell on whomever they hit.

The thing is though, this requires a huge investment of skill points, attribute points, and special attribute points for what will still be worse in combat than normal sorcery because of how restrictive it is.  Each fireball knife attack requires Throwing Weapons, Agility, Strength (for damage and range), Alchemy, and Magic.  Compared to casting a combat spell that just uses Spellcasting and Magic.  Then you take into account that each fireball knife is one less buff preparation for yourself or your teammates, and that if you don't want to use one of your limited number of special knives, you either need another combat skill (like Automatics or Spellcasting) or else you're just relying on throwing normal knives which won't be very effect.  Unless you're somehow built to be effective in combat with throwing knives already, in which case, why bother with all the alchemy junk when you coulda been an adept or a street samurai?

Alchemy is a tragic skillset.

Note that you would have to choose between the debuff and the knife damage for that, since they're two different 'attack' effects.

As for the skills, I honestly have NEVER played any form of Awakened character that didn't have at LEAST one other combat skill outside of their magic. But then, I came to SR from D&D, so I learned the most holy of lessons early on: Always make sure your wizard can do SOMETHING when the spells run dry. You might not have a limited number of spells per day in SR, but between drain and background counts, there's definitely a limit to how much magic a mage can go tossing around. Better have a plan B for when magic isn't going to cut it. Funny thing about blades? Even if they're a weapon focus, they work just fine for cutting people when you're in a F6 background count.

[firebug]

Note that you would have to choose between the debuff and the knife damage for that, since they're two different 'attack' effects.

Normally, yes, and following the logic of "only one attack per turn, no exceptions" yes.  But Hard Targets made it pretty clear that contact preparations can trigger in addition to normal attacks.  I mean, it presents an entire archetype and a few paragraphs grouped under "Projectiles And Alchemy" to explain that yes, this works, and explains that an arrow that doesn't penetrate armor will still trigger contact preparations from the target's aura.  Then we have Forbidden Arcana and the Alter Ballistics "spell that only works as a preparation" that allows you to make use bullets are lynchpins as long as they are fired from Single Shot firearms.  Can't wait to have a player get hit with a shot from a Ruger Super Warhawk and then a Punch spell at the same time...  (I'm not actually excited.)

[Marcus]

imo, It was inevitable sense the first time we had the discussion a little after 5th came out. I'm just happy SS was agreeable, can you  imagine Auto-pistols?

The upside of it, remains it's expensive, so anyone who gets double tapped by spellbullets had that sh*t coming. Ok but in all seriousness, there remains plenty of room for error in the process. Including early detonation, and we have had half fifth to get used to it from magic arrows.

Also i feel like the warhawk's and LaMatt's wasn't getting enough table time.