[Grizzly]

Hey chummers.

Is there anything official about the order of application for qualities that affect the same dice rolls?  Or is it purely a GM call if the descriptions are unclear?

For example:
Strive for Perfection (12 point quality - AP p.17) says it halves the cost of called shots.
Sharpshooter (4 point quality - R&G p.127) says it reduces the called shot penalty by 2 dice.

Coming from different books they do not reference each other.  There are likely similar concerns with other qualities but that's the one that I've noticed so far.

In my mind, the more expensive quality should be applied first.  So this would mean halving the called shot penalty of 4 dice down to 2, then Sharpshooter would subtract the other 2 dice so called shots are at zero penalty.

A potentially equally valid interpretation is that Sharpshooter is applied first, reducing 4 down to 2.  Then Strive for Perfection would halve the 2 down to a 1 die penalty.

Feedback about these two qualities working together would be great - but I'm also looking for a broader ruling/point of view in case I find another case like this.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Barring other info, I'd go with standard mathematical order of operation.  (Multiply/divide before adding/subtracting)

E.g. 3 + 4 x 2 = 11. It's incorrect to say 14.

[Michael Chandra]

Sidenote: I still believe no GM should allow anyone to take both of these, because their negative aspects clash. https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=18114.0

[忍]

Set the counter back to zero Jimmy. Someone asked again.

[Marcus]

It's been awhile, and it's new season. It's only fair.

[adzling]

I think we have errata for this, it’s deduct first then divide.

That makes it less op/ nuts while still rewarding the player.

[Grizzly]

Thanks all.  I was sure it wasn't a new question

Michael: I completely understand your concern for the potential OP-ness of this particular combination, though I do have to disagree a bit on that stance.  The really important detail is that a Free Action is required.  While a GM that plays it a bit loose might allow multiple Free Actions during an Initiative Pass (due to SR5 p.163) I find that RAW and RAI it's not so scary as, according to that same page, you should really only get 1 Free Action during the entirety of an Initiative Pass.

Most gun-toting PC's are going to have 2 Action Phases each IP out of chargen.  And according to Strive for Perfection if they are using their gun they HAVE to do a called shot "unless he is providing covering fire or acting in a similar capacity".  That means the PC will generally do a called shot during their first Action Phase, using up their one Free Action.  So, strictly RAW, during their second action phase if the PC wants to use their firearm they actually can only provide suppressive fire (and at a -1 die penalty due to Sharpshooter) since they don't have a Free Action to make a second Called Shot.

The only way I know to get around this is to also purchase Perfect Timing for an additional 5 Karma to get an additional Free Action each Action Phase.

And if you do THAT, then out of chargen you've spent 84% of your possible Positive Qualities around this one trick, which is not a small investment.  So you should really get something useful for that investment.

[Marcus]

I fear you are way over thinking this Grizzly. What actually happens is this. They will shoot the bad guy #1 (any faintly hostile thug with a weapon) with 24 dice and drop that dumb @ss no need for called shots. Then -10 initiative later, they will perform traditional Shadowrun Victory dance. "Get their Guns and Links!". Then beat feet before the KE shows up 2d6 rounds later.

[忍]

Most gun-toting PC's are going to have 2 Action Phases each IP out of chargen.  And according to Strive for Perfection if they are using their gun they HAVE to do a called shot "unless he is providing covering fire or acting in a similar capacity".  That means the PC will generally do a called shot during their first Action Phase, using up their one Free Action.  So, strictly RAW, during their second action phase if the PC wants to use their firearm they actually can only provide suppressive fire (and at a -1 die penalty due to Sharpshooter) since they don't have a Free Action to make a second Called Shot.

You also can't take more than one 'attack action' in an initiative pass. (Unless you use a Run & Gun rule)

[Michael Chandra]

You get 1 Free Action per initiative pass, and can take a positive quality to get 2. (Perfect for Mages.) So it doesn't really harm a samurai, since they usually only use a Free Action for called shots and for ejecting clips.

[Grizzly]

*light bulb*

I see where I am on a different page now...thanks all.

For some reason I had it confused in my head, essentially thinking that you only got one Free Action per Combat Turn.

An IP is when everyone goes once, then you subtract 10 from init, then you start another IP...don't know what I was thinking otherwise.  Must have been a technomancer messing with my head

Since you always get a Free Action per IP then you can always make called shots, so Michael's concern about the penalties for Sharpshooter never coming into play are valid.

That cleared up...

So I take it that, in case a similar situation pops up again, there is no clear call on general order of application?

[adzling]

did you not see my post Grizzly?

[Marcus]

As Adzling said, subtract, divide.
To be totally honest that combo is not worth the points.
Die pool size is more important penalty reduction.

[Grizzly]

Adzling - thanks for your earlier post, I did see it.  It is my understanding that you are talking about this particular combination (which is great to know).

I was actually looking for a more general rule application if it existed, as there is always the chance for other qualities to interact on the same attribute and the question arises of which to apply first.

One that I am thinking of is the Night Vision positive quality and Albinism II negative quality, both of which contain elements which add to a PC's glare penalty.  This came up a month or two ago and, while the answer to that question was hashed out, I am wondering if there is a more meta-view of how to handle things.  More books with new qualities will certainly continue to be printed and sooner or later there will be more conflicts/strange interactions.

There may not be, and I'm fine with that if that's the case.  Just wondering if there is.

[忍]

Nope. No method to the madness. Thou-who-shall-not-be-named has pretty much ingrained this pattern into 5th.