[Michael Chandra]

I have just another question concerning this.  What is your sniper running around with?  A panther assault cannon?  If not, he's going to have quite a hard time getting through the wall to the target at the other side, blind fire penalty or not.  Unless it's a paper wall, but anything like brick or concrete will normally stop a bullet from a sniper rifle without too much trouble.

APDS or AV rounds in an Ares Barrett 122. -10 AP at the very least. -22 if you do a Double Tap with a Semi-Automatic Burst. Won't work on big walls, but those of small buildings, or non-structural, are a piece of cake.

The first time I had a Sniper fire through a wall based on first person camera footage, without AROs on Traced Commlinks, was when another player threw a big attack at a gangster and the guy came out unscratched. That was the point where he realised what they were in for, so he called for a Sniper shot. Aaaah... Good times... Hello Beetle Spirits!

[Reaver]

Where do you get +- 3 or 4 meters from? I would think taking a video of a room, and then putting that onto an image link, would get much closer. (Imagine having someone with a video camera that is directly uploading onto your phone in your hand - you could cesonly tell within a few inches of where everyone is on that video; the main problem would be perception, and possible time lag, but with even modern day technology time lag would be close to nil, so mostly just perception - I would think -4, with a 5 point quality to reduce to -1 or -2 seems just about perfect. I wouldn't require any checks though, as video up/downloading is basic with any image software). But if there is distances like you've indicated somewhere, that would definitely put it into the -6 territory.

OK, look at this way:

You are staring at a wall, wondering where to place your shot. The wall is 3 Meters (10 feet) high, by 6 meters (20 feet) long. Total area: 18 meters, or 200 feet.
A human body is roughly 2 meters tall, by 1 meter wide - at the largest facing. (shoulders facing you, standing tall.) but can be as small as .25 meters by 1 meter (laying on the ground, feet towards you.) Total area. 2 meters (6 feet) to .25 meters (1 foot).

The average rifle cartridge diameter is 0.008m. (8 mm). Heck even the largest heavy machine gun round in the world is only 1.47 cm. (14.7mm).

Starting to see the problem?
You are trying to place a bullet, which is less then 1% the size of the human, through a wall where the target is less then 3% of the wall....

This isn't horseshoes, and this isn't a hand grenade!

[Kincaid]

Xenon covered the most important (from a player's perspective) point.  You want the -6 penalty because that means you're eliminating, or vastly reducing, their Defense Test.

[Michael Chandra]

Yeah, they got what, 4 dice from Cover, Deflection dice (NOT Combat Sense dice), and that's it?_?

[Overbyte]

Where do you get +- 3 or 4 meters from? I would think taking a video of a room, and then putting that onto an image link, would get much closer. (Imagine having someone with a video camera that is directly uploading onto your phone in your hand - you could cesonly tell within a few inches of where everyone is on that video; the main problem would be perception, and possible time lag, but with even modern day technology time lag would be close to nil, so mostly just perception - I would think -4, with a 5 point quality to reduce to -1 or -2 seems just about perfect. I wouldn't require any checks though, as video up/downloading is basic with any image software). But if there is distances like you've indicated somewhere, that would definitely put it into the -6 territory.

OK, look at this way:

You are staring at a wall, wondering where to place your shot. The wall is 3 Meters (10 feet) high, by 6 meters (20 feet) long. Total area: 18 meters, or 200 feet.
A human body is roughly 2 meters tall, by 1 meter wide - at the largest facing. (shoulders facing you, standing tall.) but can be as small as .25 meters by 1 meter (laying on the ground, feet towards you.) Total area. 2 meters (6 feet) to .25 meters (1 foot).

The average rifle cartridge diameter is 0.008m. (8 mm). Heck even the largest heavy machine gun round in the world is only 1.47 cm. (14.7mm).

Starting to see the problem?
You are trying to place a bullet, which is less then 1% the size of the human, through a wall where the target is less then 3% of the wall....

This isn't horseshoes, and this isn't a hand grenade!

Just to throw some fuel on the fire, the part that you are missing in this little analysis is that if you have a smartlink you may very well be able to compute the distance to the camera, the angle and distance of the target from the camera, triangulate and compute relatively accurately where your target is in relation to you.

p.214
Everybody uses the Matrix. Most shadowrunners have multiple pieces of gear that use it, often interacting with the Matrix without them knowing it. Smartlinks use it to look up local conditions and calculate firing solutions,

[Lormyr]

The surprise vs. unaware defender vs. firing through walls is one of the messiest combat mechanics in SR in my opinion. My interpretation of when a defender counts as totally unaware is typically only when they have absolutely no chance of noticing their attacker. All other situations fall under the surprise rules.

What situations constitute as absolutely no chance of noticing their attacker? Pretty much just the firing through walls situation, or attacking someone in their sleep. Even then, I would allow a character with combat sense, detect enemies, detect life, ect. a surprise test in most circumstances. Those things all lend a supernatural sense of positioning, trouble, or a 6th sense for trouble.

This, chunky salsa, semi-auto grenades/missles/rockets, and no defense tests for AoE attacks are the main combat mechanics I would love to see re-balanced.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

The "I'll just spend an edge point to GET a defense test" mechanic from R&G doesn't technically neaten up the unaware defender rule, but it does render moot much of the messiness over whether someone does or doesn't get one.

[Marcus]

There an infinite number of what if cases. The easier ones are  I had detect enemies up, I have adept danger sense power, I have maxed levels of combat sense, I'm an initiate of divination and mega danger sense.

I believe in common sense. If your player has a solid argument as to why they should get a test vs the surprise then give it to them, but had better be something more then b/c I'm always paranoid. But on other side if the go in blind and dumb just b/c they jumped first and asked questions never, well then sh!t happens, and you can always burn a point of edge to live.

Surprise mechanics are intended to be painful. If they are not, then odds are you're doing it wrong. But that said folks who put points into not being surprised need to get value from those points. Nature system no sense losing sleep over it.

Chunkie salsa is one most interesting parts of SR, it may well be overly simulationist, but it takes me back to casting fireball in the dungeon days. A sphere of X Volume compressed in Y area extends the radius of destruction by Z amount. How close was your party?

That all said I don't think i have a chunkie Salsa come up for real in 4+ years. So it's also just not that common.

[Michael Chandra]

I've had runners cast Invisibility on 6 Grenades and a drone, and cast a heavily edged Manascape on one of the grenades and another on the drone, as well as a Stealth spell, just so those 10 spells allowed them to snipe a Master Shedim with two Semi-Automatic grenade bursts. Aaaah, the massacre.

Meanwhile, a Bug Queen spent like 5 Interrupt actions to dodge the KE IV grenades they kept throwing at her. XD

Back on topic: I only grant a free attack if they really earned it. In a situation where they suspect there might be attackers they can't see, you're right that there should be a defense test. Mind you, in that case there should still be a penalty for the defender as well. Maybe eliminating the cover bonus to their defense test, since they're no longer using the cover (asides from the Blind Fire penalty) to help make them harder to hit.

As for Detect Enemies: To quote a character's motto I played in a short campaign: I WANT people to know me and hate me. That way I can see them coming. (The character was, of course, a blind mage. Possession even, so he made his enemies turn on each other by various means of Mind Control. Which leads me to a potential third scenario: A possessed ally shooting you in the back.)

[Xenon]

Ranged attacks in this post also include indirect combat spells with range code: LOS

Melee attacks in this post also include touch-only attacks and indirect combat spells with range code: Touch


Good cover act as a positive dice pool modifier of 4 dice (partial cover act as a positive dice pool modifier of 2 dice) against ranged attacks, but only if the defender actually spend a Simple Action to Take Cover and only as long as the defender can see the ranged attacker.

Good and Partial cover does not act as a positive dice pool modifier against melee attacks, not even if the defender spend a Simple Action to Take Cover.

A ranged attacker does not gain a positive dice pool modifier to attack from behind or from another location where the defender cannot see the attacker, however, the defender is considered unaware of the attack and does not get to take a defense test. The defender still get to roll 2 or 4 dice as a defense pool of its own if they happen to be behind partial or good cover. While under the effect of Combat Sense (either the spell or the adept power) the defender always get to roll a perception test to see an attacker.

A melee attacker gain a positive dice pool modifier of 2 dice if attacking from behind or above (due to superior position), however, if the defender is already engaged in combat then he is not considered unaware of the attack and get to take a defense test.


A defender that is currently surprised by an attacker is also considered unaware of the attack (applies to both ranged attacks even if defender see the attacker and melee attacks even if defender is already engaged in combat).

[adzling]

im surprised they beat the object resistance test of 15 for the drone with enough successes to spare to make a decent invis effect.

im also surprised the shedim (whose dual natured) didn't notice a mundane object glowing on the astral as it approached him.

I've had runners cast Invisibility on 6 Grenades and a drone, and cast a heavily edged Manascape on one of the grenades and another on the drone, as well as a Stealth spell,

[Michael Chandra]

The invisible manascaped stealthed concealed sneaking mundane object you mean? Yeah no idea how that caught him by surprise.

[adzling]

manascape would certainly do the trick, the challenge would be getting enough net hits on the invis against object rating 15. that would require a serious spellcasting pool (@30 dice).

[Beta]

manascape would certainly do the trick, the challenge would be getting enough net hits on the invis against object rating 15. that would require a serious spellcasting pool (@30 dice).

I didn't think that illusions cared about what they were making invisible, only on the dice pool of the observer?

[adzling]

sure do, you cast invisibility (or any illusion spell) on an item so that it moves with the item then you are affecting the item.

therefore you must first beat it's object resistance.

which is exactly why this type of thing is so hard (unless you cast on an item that is lower tech).

when you cast a spell on a WILLING person there is no resistance test.

when you cast the spell on an unwilling person (such as an enemy who doesn't want to be invisible) then they would get a "saving throw" or resistance test like any other illusion spell for it to even take effect. then your net hits would apply to any observer trying to see said invisible enemy.