[Vaarsuvius]

So for me I use and change the standard formula. The base modifier is 3,000, but not every Johnson uses it, it depends on what they are asking, how much money they actually have, who they (Mr Johnson) are, and how much they want the thing done. The lowest a normal run has gone for was 2,000 (orc underground) base modifier, and the highest is their current run which is 5,000, and is the strangest, longest, and arguably most important run they have ever done. Then I allow the negotiation check for +- 100 nuyen net hit, which I never give a free pass on, but the face crushes it every time anyways like +900 average.

I tend to put something difficult in each run somewhere along the line, usually -something- is going to oppose them with 20+ dice at one point, so +5 for difficulty, then the other little mods, well I usually try to include a few of them if logical, so usually they will get +3-4 miscellaneous adds (like outnumbered 3 to 1). When I remember I like to put +1 per game session beyond the first, to make it so that an extended run doesn't feel like cheating them out of advancement (I do +2 karma per game after first), I should note that this is each not split.

On top of this they will sometimes get operating funds (much less, determined by negotiation) or they will get expenses comped, depends how much, depends who, and depends on the roll. In the current run I actually scared one of my players with this. You see Mr. Johnson wants this thing, she wants it really, really bad. It's also a hard, and expensive run, so she gave them 350,000 nuyen in operational expenses, and wouldn't be negotiated into more, because that was all she could afford. Usually not this much though, as I said this is a really important run, in fact the last really, really important run of Act 1 in my campaign (of about 2 years).

I'm probably paying them more than the average as they tend to earn 50,000 - 80,000 per run, but I've seen no issues, they tend to just blow it on cars. (seriously)

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Yeah that sounds a lot more than usual, but so long as everyone's having fun with it there's no problem!

[Sphinx]

Ask yourself: (A) What kind of lifestyle should they be able to afford? And (B) how many shadowruns do they complete per month? That tells you what they should make as a baseline.

Beginning runners should earn enough every month to afford a Low lifestyle (maybe Street if they're paying off a debt), plus a bit extra for expenses. After a few successful runs, as they start to build a reputation, they should be able to afford a Medium lifestyle (or keep it Low and accumulate nuyen for tech upgrades) with enough left over to splurge occasionally. Veteran runners with some years and a few hundred karma behind them should be able to maintain a High lifestyle and a few safehouses (or Medium/Low with occasional trips to the delta clinic).

[Vaarsuvius]

Ask yourself: (A) What kind of lifestyle should they be able to afford? And (B) how many shadowruns do they complete per month? That tells you what they should make as a baseline.

Beginning runners should earn enough every month to afford a Low lifestyle (maybe Street if they're paying off a debt), plus a bit extra for expenses. After a few successful runs, as they start to build a reputation, they should be able to afford a Medium lifestyle (or keep it Low and accumulate nuyen for tech upgrades) with enough left over to splurge occasionally. Veteran runners with some years and a few hundred karma behind them should be able to maintain a High lifestyle and a few safehouses (or Medium/Low with occasional trips to the delta clinic).

I admit I give more than the book might recommend, but this, this is ridiculously low, I mean If you just go RAW the formula should give 15,000 at a minimum if the runners don't negotiate at all. You make these elite mercenaries (and that is what they are) paid like scrubs, even noob runners are far superior to most professionals barring elite professionals, such as HTR.

You seem to be suggesting that you would pay your runners 3000 nuyen per run if they did one run a month, well tell me how did your street sam begin play with his 400,000 nuyen worth of cyber with earnings like that? I don't mean to offend, I'm simply flabbergasted.

[Xenon]

If you don't pay them enough then they will start looting corpses (and that is not really what Shadowrun is about).

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

As a point of reference, the Shadowrun organized play baseline is a tad higher than the Core book suggestion.  SRM campaign scenarios are tuned to around 10-12K per player per run.  (and 5-8 Karma per run.. where a run is high on the spectrum of karma awarded, it'll be low on the pay spectrum and vice versa)

[Marcus]

I do think it's important point to look at. The other piece of it, comes down to, the more money roll. I know someone did math break down on SRM Johnson, and in general Johnson, rolls are considerably lower then Most PC faces. So the plus and minus component should feel meaningful.

The other point i feel like are very under estimated in this, is paying in product. Given that Johnson's can get ahold of product at cost, and give it to runners at street prices theoretically this should be the most optimal method of ether full or partial payment.

I guess one point is anonymity, I recall a Johnson roll from a mod, that wore two false corporate flags, one difficulty like 4 and one at difficulty 12 or something. Of course both were false but the Johnson just liked to see how good the runners really were.

I do think that SRM tends to run 10K is much more reasonable base line for your average run. Baring street play or "good" karma runs.

[Sphinx]

... how did your street sam begin play with his 400,000 nuyen worth of cyber with earnings like that?

She certainly didn't pay for it out of her pocket. Probably ex-millitary or ex-corpsec ... the augmentations came with the job (typical military: low pay, good benefits). Where their beginning resources came from should be part of every runner's origin story.

My point was that runners' income should support whatever lifestyle is appropriate for the GM's campaign. If you want to run a game where runners live luxury lifestyles, do that. I'd probably enjoy playing in that campaign.

[Vaarsuvius]

I realize I should also ask another question: How long are your runs? Mine tend to run 3-5 sessions, often with a downtime session in between. If yours run like 1 session 1 run, I can understand that much more. The current run though is on it's fifth session and we are maybe halfway through?

[Spooky]

For mission length, well, it depends on the run. I've had a team take only 2 sessions (1 planning, 1 executing) to complete a run. The same team has also taken over 8 sessions (so far...) to complete a run of (what I think) is a similar complexity level. So, that means there's no real answer for how long should a mission take.

[brombur]

I think I over pay mine and I'm torn. On one side I like there to be the gritty need to work to survive mentality but on the other I want them to feel they have a chance to upgrade cyberware, buy new stuff, etc.  If you keep them on poverty tier earnings, say that 10k a month it would take a character years to earn enough after expenses to buy a decent cyberdeck or cyberware upgrade. Sure guns and spells are cheap enough but everything else is crazy expensive.

My group averages about 3-5 sessions for a run with the average run paying about 15,000 each. They have yet to get expenses paid by a job so that is already a loss in wages, they have lost a truck, numerous guns as well as having a few lifestyles and the attached Sins burned so the cost of living are high. They run about a job a week in game time, with some runs spilling over into their downtime as angry folks try to get payback or they work to resolves issues like unloading the refugees they rescued on someone who will take em and keep em halfway decent.

[neomerlin]

Personally, I like the tone of my games to feel like a struggle. The players earn more than enough to get by, but not a lot more, and sometimes the costs of a job really cut into that. I don't want them to start falling into the gutter and being unable to fix their broken drones, but I want them to carefully consider how they spend that money. Then, every now and then, I give them a big payday so they can get their heads above water and upgrade some equipment.

But eventually, that's still not enough. Because a big pay day every now and then, one that means the samurai can by a new rifle and maintain their lifestyle for an extra month, isn't nearly enough for a decker to upgrade to a new deck, or even for that samurai to get new chrome, or for the AI rigger in my game to build their own android body.

And that's when the players start planning their own runs. Can't afford a new deck or a robot? Of course you can't. They're not consumer goods you're meant to go out and buy. But maybe you can find and steal one, and maybe steal something else while you're there to make it worthwhile for the whole team. But there's no guarantees in a run like that, and the time you spend on those personal runs is time you're not taking work with a guaranteed income from a Johnson. So you've got to make those choices. And you've got to make those choices around the choice to spend a few weeks training your Body stat and spending karma, or a month to initiate. That's time you're not making money.

And if those choices feel like a difficult balancing act, good. Nobody said running the shadows was easy. If you don't want the freedom of choice, go back to the corps.

[cantrip]

We try to play once a week for two hours, but the realistic average tends to be 2-3 times a month. So, we only finish a run very three or four months -- so I have a tendency to over pay.
There are sooo many potential money sinks in game -- monthly lifestyles, re-purchasing burnt SINs and IDs, paying of contacts and NPCs, cyberware, magic gear (materials for summoning, foci, reagents etc). Gear and Cyberware upgrades/replacements. Almost every archetype has something to sink money into.
I tried to follow RAW in the beginning, but due to or low completion rate of runs, they'd barely be able to pay rent. That's fine if that is the style of game your players want, but I prefer to see growth over time.
If money becomes an issue at a table, it really isn't too hard to come up with reasons to have them spend it---just put on your evil GM hat/gloves/pants...

[Michael Chandra]

I mostly follow the official rates with a few tweaks, and my players are excellent at negotiating. They did 1 run a month and I had a bit of downtime activity in as well. We tended to do 1 session per 1~2 months (some players went foreign at some point), 4~5 hours for 1 run.

[Reaver]

I pay "What the client is willing to pay".

Which may sound silly, but then you consider I run campaigns, where the players actions and choices have consequences that carry on in game for YEARS to come, and not solo, or linked missions...

But I do have a general guide line I try to follow: Behind the scenes I know what the players will face, and plan payment around that.

$2000 to $5000 to start.
+5% for every 5 points of street cred (Averaged out).
+500 for every planned combat. (This is what I plan for, NOT how the world reacts to the players! If I plan out there will 3 combats if the players take a reasonable course of action, then they go and decide to storm the building at high noon on a tuesday.... I ain't paying them for it!)
+1000 if wet work is required
+500 to +5000 if there will be known consequences for the run. (Hitting a major public figure, mass property destruction, anything that could get them public awareness modifiers.)

+20 to 50% if payment will be in "goods and services" (new gear, access to medical facilities, etc)

From there, They can try to butter up for more as usual... I generally plan for 2 paying runs a month, but the players make the call and have been known to do as many as 8 runs in a month. (Granted, they were all short courier jobs, but there was still risks), Its been interesting to watch their development as they become more ingrained into the setting. Last Month they accepted a job for 10kg of fresh veggies a month each for a year as payment just because they have become invested in the little commune veggie garden I threw in just to add color when describing the neighborhood I originally placed them in!


Be careful however when it comes to payments with goods... It can have some.... surprising repercussions.