Shadowrun Play > Rules and such
[SR5] Rigger jumped in firing his vehicule weapons
Banshee:
--- Quote from: ClaytonCross on ---
--- Quote from: Aaron on ---I think if you're firing via control rig and in hot sim, you'd get the bonus. Control Device is, after all, a Matrix Action.
If you're firing the weapon without Sensor targeting, your dice pool would be (Gunnery + Agility + 2) and your limit would be [Accuracy + Control Rig rating].
If you're firing with Sensor targeting, your dice pool would be (Gunnery + Logic + 2) and your limit would be [Sensor + Control Rig rating].
--- End quote ---
1.Sensor targeting is not about using the sensors, you always use the sensors when gunning and rigging. Its about letting the drone auto control weapons. (Think of it a Golden Eye auto aim, but crappy) So in this case your not just talking sensor quality but computer recognition and over ride. Its usually better to aim your self, but if you have a crappy gun you can use it to "auto-aim" its low accuracy. That is the intent of Sensor targeting. Not to cripple good weapons.
2.Gunnery while jumped in is ALWAYS a matrix action and logic.
3.Gunnery using remote is ALWAYS logic.
4.Gunnery with hands on the gun is agility.
My point is if you jumped in you get the rig bonus to pool and limit. If your not jumped in you don't. Its already complicated enough that I use a spread sheet with six rows for basic gunnery with my rigger. I don't need it more complicated.lol
--- End quote ---
ok first Aaron is not one to toot his own horn too much ;) but when it comes to anything remotely matrix action like you can assume what he says is about as good as your going to get when it comes to rules interpretations since he wrote the original framework they are based on ... so don't discount it so freely
1. if I read your statement correctly, yes you are always using sensors but not necessarily targeting with them and that is the difference
2. no ... Logic is used ONLY when you are using Passive Targeting per CRB pg 184 and changes the limit to Sensor rating, ALL other situations use Agility with Accuracy as the limit ... this part has nothing to do with being a rigger or being jumped in or anything else for that matter ... anyone using a senor equipped device to make an attack can choose to use passive targeting, but obviously anyone with a control rig and access to full VR can do it better due to the previously discussed dice pool modifiers and limit bonuses
ClaytonCross:
#2
driving tests AND Gunnery are considered matrix actions while jumped in (SR5 p266). Jumped in controlling a device remotely uses logic... see #3.
#3
Vehicle-mounted weapons are fired using Gunnery + Agility [Accuracy] for manual operation, like door guns on mounts, or Gunnery + Logic [Accuracy] for remote operated systems. CRB, p183.
If your controlling a drone via rigging it is a remote action and there for logic. Per the rule book. Your looking at the rigging rules but omitted the gunnery specific rules. Its not about being jumped in, its about being remote which will always be the case when your jumped into a device. (Even jacked directly into a vehicle your "remote controlling it" the same way you would through the matrix.)
Fabe:
--- Quote from: ClaytonCross on ---#2
If your controlling a drone via rigging it is a remote action and there for logic. Per the rule book. Your looking at the rigging rules but omitted the gunnery specific rules. Its not about being jumped in, its about being remote which will always be the case when your jumped into a device. (Even jacked directly into a vehicle your "remote controlling it" the same way you would through the matrix.)
--- End quote ---
I disagree with that. Yes the rules say that remote controlling a weapon mount is gunnery/logic but the control device action on page 238 says you use the same skill/attribute normally used when controlling a device . So if my rigger is using his comlink to remotely control one of his drones he;ll use pilot/reaction.
Kiirnodel:
Yeah... seems we have yet another contradiction in the Core Rulebook.
Under Gunnery on page 183.
It specifically call out that you use Gunnery + Agility for manual operated vehicle weapons. And you use Gunnery + Logic for remote operated systems.
But under Control Device on page 238.
The first example for using the appropriate skill and attribute you would normally use is for firing a drone-mounted weapon. It specifically calls out using Gunnery + Agility.
Now, Fabe, I don't think anyone is suggesting you wouldn't use Pilot + Reaction to drive a vehicle. The discussion they are having is specifically about the fact that Gunnery switches between Agility and Logic. I don't think ClaytonCross was suggesting you use Logic for everything while operating remotely (just Gunnery).
Personally, I side with the idea that Gunnery + Logic while jumped in makes sense, because why does your physical hand-eye coordination have an effect on your ability to aim and shoot over the matrix? If the rigger's body is lying limp in the seat, why would the fact that he has Muscle Toner affect his ability to shoot the drone that he's jumped into?
Now, I had a bit of a hard time adjusting to the idea that you still use your Reaction for Piloting, because again, it didn't seem to make sense the your physical attributes would have an effect on your jumped-in abilities. I thought it would be similar to Astral attributes, where your Intuition (Mental reaction speed) would replace your physical twitch (Reaction). I came to terms with Reaction staying put for Piloting based on the idea that it could still be based on your neural impulses, which are increased by things like Wired Reflexes or Reaction enhancers. But I would still be stuck on the idea that your muscle tone has any effect on your ability to aim a remotely operated gun. The only explanation I can give for using Agility is if you are using a Virtual device (like AR through a Miracle Shooter) system to physically move and aim and have that input be what aims and shoots the remotely operated turret. So if someone is in AR and using Control Device to aim and shoot a remote-operate drone turret, I would let them opt to use Agility in that circumstance. But any sort of VR, it just doesn't really make sense to use Agility for any sort of tests... That would be like saying when the decker commands a robotic arm to lift a box, he needs to roll his Body+Strength to see if the arm can pick it up...
ClaytonCross:
--- Quote from: Fabe on ---
--- Quote from: ClaytonCross on ---#2
If your controlling a drone via rigging it is a remote action and there for logic. Per the rule book. Your looking at the rigging rules but omitted the gunnery specific rules. Its not about being jumped in, its about being remote which will always be the case when your jumped into a device. (Even jacked directly into a vehicle your "remote controlling it" the same way you would through the matrix.)
--- End quote ---
I disagree with that. Yes the rules say that remote controlling a weapon mount is gunnery/logic but the control device action on page 238 says you use the same skill/attribute normally used when controlling a device . So if my rigger is using his comlink to remotely control one of his drones he;ll use pilot/reaction.
--- End quote ---
1. You not using the "control device" matrix action if your jumped in. That is the topic of the thread.
2. If your controlling decker (or anyone else, including a rigger) using a come link to use "control device" then the rule of specific over general applies. Generally you use the same skill listed for control device but not if the skill specifically calls out remote use as changing it to logic. If that is not the case then specific rule of logic has no meaning and would never apply. If your remote its logic unless you have a more specific rule for gunnery and its use. Not a general rule that states all actions and does not apply to riggers (who are not using the "control device" matrix action to begin with. They are using gunnery as a matrix action per the rules.
all driving tests AND Gunnery are considered matrix actions while jumped in (SR5 p266)
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