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[6e] Edge question

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Xelian

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« on: <05-20-21/1423:06> »
I'm pretty sure this have probably been answered before but a argument had arose on our last session about edge and what exactly consider a situation.
Basically we wanted to question a guy and as a mage I wanted to mind probe him but to be sure I wanted to accumulate some bonus edge in order to reroll my fails if I have to. As a mage my max edge attribute is only 2. So I wanted to roll play some questioning on the guy hopefully gaining edge for the scene before I try to cast the spell on him. My DM said in the moment I no longer talk to him and cast a spell the social confrontation is over and my edge goes back to 2 so I cannot use it.
Basically we argued over this paragraph from the book
"Any Edge garnered over your base attribute goes away when you complete any ongoing confrontation; this includes combat, hacking, social persuasion, and any situation
where bonus Edge might be accumulated. If, at the end of the confrontation, your current Edge points are less than your Edge attribute, you stay at the lower level"

So what exactly is ongoing confrontation?

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #1 on: <05-20-21/1452:02> »
...
So what exactly is ongoing confrontation?

An "ongoing confrontation" ends whenever a GM says it does.

Now mind you, a GM shouldn't be saying a confrontation arbitrarily ends just to force an Edge dump.  Whether a pause mid-fight or mid-chase is substantial enough to warrant the Edge reset is a matter that is deliberately reserved to GM discretion.  But logically there needs to BE some sort of break in the action or flow of events, in the first place.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

MercilessMing

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« Reply #2 on: <05-20-21/1602:04> »
That's an extremely narrow reading your GM had there, but SSDR is right that its a GM discretion rule.  Howeverrrr.... at my talbe, the confrontation would be defined as the current scene with the current players, until the scene is resolved, or until the conflict is resolved, in a dramatic/theatre sense.  If a fight breaks out in the middle of negotiations, to me that's the same confrontation.  Likewise if negotiations break out in the middle of a fight. 

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #3 on: <05-20-21/1602:25> »
On one hand, it's still the same encounter, so I disagree with 'we just switched from social / infiltration / smoothtalking into actual combat, so edge resets'.

On the other hand, you're questioning him just for the Edge? That's Edge Abuse and the rules allow for a GM to go 'nope, I see what you're doing here, no rewards for you'.
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MercilessMing

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« Reply #4 on: <05-20-21/1609:42> »
On the other hand, you're questioning him just for the Edge? That's Edge Abuse and the rules allow for a GM to go 'nope, I see what you're doing here, no rewards for you'.
If he questioned a homeless person in the alley and then came in and mind probed the target, I'd agree.  Or did some other activity not related to getting info from the target.  Questioning followed by a Mind Probe is a legit way to do edge "farming" cause it's grounded in the story at hand.  And who's to say he couldn't have gotten the info with the questioning?

Finstersang

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« Reply #5 on: <05-20-21/1612:32> »
Yup, sounds like a good example on how not to handle Edge resets. The only reason why this might be remotely justifiable is as a means to mechanically penalize the low Edge Attribute of 2. If it werenīt for frequent resets, the Attribute would have almost no meaning besides setting starting Edge, so "forcing" an expected reset every now and then is not the worst practice.

But even with that problem and the olī"GMīs always right" in mind, this sound pretty petty. At the core, what you described is clearly one interrogation scene where you merely switched the means of interrogation from mundane to magical. Itīs also reasonable to assume that good socialwork helps to ease up the target for the Mind probe.

On the other hand, you're questioning him just for the Edge? That's Edge Abuse and the rules allow for a GM to go 'nope, I see what you're doing here, no rewards for you'.
If he questioned a homeless person in the alley and then came in and mind probed the target, I'd agree.  Or did some other activity not related to getting info from the target.  Questioning followed by a Mind Probe is a legit way to do edge "farming" cause it's grounded in the story at hand.  And who's to say he couldn't have gotten the info with the questioning?

Very important disction here!
« Last Edit: <05-20-21/1614:13> by Finstersang »
"Firing Line adds a ton of Perks that modify Attack and Defense ratings"

"Cool, does this mean that the whole AR/DR comparison has a bigger impact now?"

"Haha No :D"

ammulder

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« Reply #6 on: <05-20-21/1623:20> »
The GM's position is odd to me.

I take the AR/DR thing to be a powerful gun or beefy armor can give an advantage/disadvantage for a physical attack.

Well, a good social working-over certainly seems like the way to give advantage/disadvantage for a mind probe (could be either; if you just end up aggravating the target, maybe you increase their resistance to the mind probe).

I'm not sure I'd be as keen on a social interaction giving edge to a Combat spell, unless maybe the social approach was geared toward making the target comfortable or otherwise lowering their mental defenses against a mana attack spell.

But it seems right in line for a mind probe, and it's not as if there's some other way to accumulate edge for a magical contest.

Xenon

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« Reply #7 on: <05-20-21/1625:46> »
Not sure I follow....
  • Why do he think he need 4 Edge points in order to to cast Mind Probe?
  • Why do you not think Mind Probe can be useful during an interrogation?

I can see good arguments for both sides here (that it count as the same encounter or that it count as two different encounters).

Having said that, two things comes to mind;

  • Mind Probe is a magical way to interrogate a subject. If he is a skilled interrogator then he will not really learn anything more with Mind Probe.
  • According to "Gaining Edge - Preventing Edge Abuse" Gamemasters should not award points of Edge to players who are attempting to game the system.

ammulder

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« Reply #8 on: <05-20-21/1633:41> »
What counts as gaming the system?

If you shoot a goon before shooting the bigger bad, while knowing that their DR is likely to vary significantly, is that gaming the edge system?  (I ask because this one happens to have a stated rule for edge gain.)

Softening up a Mind Probe target feels legit to me.  (Whereas interrogating the homeless guy in the alley feels like abuse.)
« Last Edit: <05-20-21/1635:27> by ammulder »

MercilessMing

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« Reply #9 on: <05-20-21/1643:42> »
Quote
If you shoot a goon before shooting the bigger bad, while knowing that their DR is likely to vary significantly, is that gaming the edge system?  (I ask because this one happens to have a stated rule for edge gain.)
GM decides, but this GM would be squarely against calling that edge abuse.  I wouldn't think about invoking edge abuse until it bordered on breaking our suspension of disbelief. 

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #10 on: <05-20-21/1656:13> »
What counts as gaming the system?

If you shoot a goon before shooting the bigger bad, while knowing that their DR is likely to vary significantly, is that gaming the edge system?  (I ask because this one happens to have a stated rule for edge gain.)

Softening up a Mind Probe target feels legit to me.  (Whereas interrogating the homeless guy in the alley feels like abuse.)

Edge abuse is like pr0n:  You know it when you see it.  And... no two people agree exactly where the line is.

Here's my personal rule of thumb:

Was the primary goal of the action to generate Edge?

If yes, it's probably abuse.

If no, it's probably not.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Mycroft

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« Reply #11 on: <05-20-21/1704:14> »
SSDR... I am not so sure on that simple rule. Part of 6th and the fact that edge actions are really expensive is that you need to think about how you are setting yourself up in an advantageous position. So if the goal of the interrogation was to soften up your target and get them thinking about what you wanted to probe, that feels like a good reason to gain edge. Now it could also backfire and grant the NPC edge because they have better clothes or the social modifiers put them in a better position.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #12 on: <05-20-21/1709:54> »
Yeah, it's really a matter of how it's presented and played out. The way it's told, 'question him to get more Edge', strikes me as Edge Abuse. 'Score some initial info with manipulation or interrogation, and steer his thinking to make the Mind Probe's weakest result (surface thoughts) still useful', that would be fine.
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #13 on: <05-20-21/1739:17> »
SSDR... I am not so sure on that simple rule. Part of 6th and the fact that edge actions are really expensive is that you need to think about how you are setting yourself up in an advantageous position. So if the goal of the interrogation was to soften up your target and get them thinking about what you wanted to probe, that feels like a good reason to gain edge. Now it could also backfire and grant the NPC edge because they have better clothes or the social modifiers put them in a better position.

Indeed.. the key word in my rule of thumb was "was it the primary goal" of the action.

Rigger doing donuts in the stuffer shack parking lot prior to a street race?  If you do it just to pad your edge bank, that's a clear cut case of Edge abuse.  If you do it as part of a plan to intimidate your opposition or impress bettors prior to the race... oh and truly the free edge is just a cherry on top?  ok! The exact same action that was edge abuse when done for a different reason now may not be.

In my view it's not a matter of the action per se...  It's about the player's intent. And that's basically impossible to legislate about in a RPG.
« Last Edit: <05-20-21/1752:30> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Finstersang

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« Reply #14 on: <05-20-21/1937:20> »
In my view it's not a matter of the action per se...  It's about the player's intent. And that's basically impossible to legislate about in a RPG.

Which makes it a bit of wonky benchmark, right? Iīd say itīs much more important if the action is connected to the task at hand. IMO, in this example, there is a clear connection between the talking, the spellcasting and the task at hand (getting information out of the target). This clearly isnīt Edge abuse, even if the player does the talking bit under the blatant assumption that it might grant Edge that can be used for the Mind Probe. Thatīs the main appeal the Edge System: Do smart stuff that makes sense and get rewarded. Thereīs no need to punish players for also "expecting" that reward.

The "Smooth talk a nearby random squatter to get Edge" scenario would be abuse. But thereīs an easy way to prove that as a GM: Ask the player whatīs the purpose of the action in the grander scheme of things.
  • "Nothing, I just want to refill my Edge." Thanks for the honesty, but thatīs the definition of Edge abuse. No Edge for you.
  • "Maybe [random NPC #265] randomly connects to the story in some way" Yeah, not the case. No Edge for you.
  • "You know, Iīm just immersing myself a bit in the game world, playing out my character ..." Ok cool, thatīs fine. We can roleplay a bit. "Oh btw, do I get Edge for my First Impression?" Nice try. No.
"Firing Line adds a ton of Perks that modify Attack and Defense ratings"

"Cool, does this mean that the whole AR/DR comparison has a bigger impact now?"

"Haha No :D"