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Is Shadowrun really this brutal?

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Ragin Cajun

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« Reply #15 on: <10-25-15/2245:52> »
Shadowrun is actually a less lethal game than many games.  The reason being that, while a character can die very easily, PCs all have Edge which can essentially be extra lives.  In D&D, a dead character is dead, and the magic to bring him back is expensive and high level.  In SR, there's no revival magic (at least, not that works the way anyone wants it to) but even a freshly made character can take otherwise lethal wounds several times depending on their Edge score.

That said, in most games I play, characters getting geeked isn't common anyways.

I will give you that the Edge score can be akin to extra lives in Shadowrun, but it says that even though they live they shouldn't be totally consequence free, meaning temporary or permanent negative qualities or negative future situations. D&D does have some drawbacks to resurrection (Level loss or temporary ability point loss depending on the edition or system)  but they are easily mitigated unlike Shadowrun.
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Dinendae

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« Reply #16 on: <10-25-15/2323:33> »
Shadowrun is actually a less lethal game than many games.  The reason being that, while a character can die very easily, PCs all have Edge which can essentially be extra lives.  In D&D, a dead character is dead, and the magic to bring him back is expensive and high level.  In SR, there's no revival magic (at least, not that works the way anyone wants it to) but even a freshly made character can take otherwise lethal wounds several times depending on their Edge score.

That said, in most games I play, characters getting geeked isn't common anyways.

I will give you that the Edge score can be akin to extra lives in Shadowrun, but it says that even though they live they shouldn't be totally consequence free, meaning temporary or permanent negative qualities or negative future situations. D&D does have some drawbacks to resurrection (Level loss or temporary ability point loss depending on the edition or system)  but they are easily mitigated unlike Shadowrun.

Some editions of D&D (3rd & 3.5) had a similar option; the points could be used to add to a roll, reroll dice, or burned to keep a character alive via a freak event.

antaskidayo

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« Reply #17 on: <10-26-15/0240:48> »
with a d*ck GM, any platform is leathal

Mirikon

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« Reply #18 on: <10-26-15/0340:13> »
Shadowrun is definitely a brutal system. Get your ideas of playing like you would in D&D straight out of your head. It is damn easy to get yourself killed (or worse), even if the GM isn't specifically trying to frag up your day. A couple bad rolls, and suddenly you're on death's door, and still have to finish the run somehow.

Still, it isn't a system where the slightest mistake means you're all going to die (that's Paranoia). You can get by without having a magic type, or maybe contracting out when you really need to. There's going to be holes in your roster, though, primarily involving "Oh crap, spirits!" But enough firepower, and you can muscle through that. Likewise, there are ways to work around not having a covert ops guy or a matrix wizard or a face or whatever your party might be lacking. But without Muscle, Matrix, Magic, and a Mouthpiece, your life is going to be a HELLUVALOT more 'interesting'.
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BetaCAV

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« Reply #19 on: <10-26-15/0553:22> »
Shadowrun is fairly lethal. One of the big differences in SR is fighting your way out(or in) is not always an option. If you're trapped in a KE precinct, trying to shoot your way out will get you dead real quick. SR requires a certain amount of intelligence and the the ability to approach problems with solutions other than 'Attack, attack, attack!'
This is (one of many reasons) why it is occasionally referred to as a post-cyberpunk game. Psycho killers are a liability to people on their own side purely by association, and characters who exist only for combat will eventually get served a bigger bite than they can chew. Meanwhile the pros will cut themselves a slice and move on, and when things go sideways, they know how to duck around that slice and eat from the trailing edge.

Guns, swords, mana bolts; these things don't keep you alive -- the shadows do. If your character's not in them, you're a headshot in waiting.

tytalan

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« Reply #20 on: <10-26-15/0635:23> »
Is Shadowrun a brutal system no! Tell your friend to try playing Call of Cthulhu some time.  That said if your friend likes to punch the plot than yes he will die lots.  Shadowrun combat is all about small group tactics, Plan ahead work as a team and do not kill security.  As for required class types I have played in games were there were only 2 characters a decker and an adept, It all you your play style and your GM.

Dinendae

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« Reply #21 on: <10-26-15/0922:18> »
Still, it isn't a system where the slightest mistake means you're all going to die (that's Paranoia).

Actually, in Paranoia, you're going to die regardless of if you made a mistake or not.  ;D

Halinn

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« Reply #22 on: <10-26-15/1118:42> »
Still, it isn't a system where the slightest mistake means you're all going to die (that's Paranoia).

Actually, in Paranoia, you're going to die regardless of if you made a mistake or not.  ;D

Nah, playing Paranoia was the mistake that got you killed.
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theSim

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« Reply #23 on: <10-26-15/1237:29> »
Yes, compared to other game systems Shadowrun characters can die relatively easy, even higher "leveled" ones.

Some members of my group are new to the system so we added a hit-zone modification that only counts for players. This means whenever my players are hit I roll the bodypart (3D6) where the player is hit. While this can have severe consequences when a headshot is landed, the majority of the times it is limbs being hit, which increases modifiers only for actions done with the affected body part (unless the damage is so high that it transfers to the body). Damage modifiers for bodyparts however will apply with the first hit box (as opposed to the overall damage bar where it starts with the 4th box)

Hit to legs or arms = - 3 Overall Physical Damage
Hit to body = +/- 0 Overall Physical Damage
Hit to head = + 3 Overall Physical Damage



Example: Player's right arm is hit for 4 points. He will receive 4 damage points on his right arm and 1 damage point to his overall physical damage. (4 - 3 = 1 ) This means from now on he will have no damage modifier for any actions unless he uses his right arm where he will have -2. You could say this makes the system more complex but it is rly simple once you update the character sheet with these changes.

This system allows my players to stay alive longer by making limb hits not affect the overall physical damage meter as much... plus it keeps the modifiers.
« Last Edit: <10-26-15/1252:49> by theSim »

Rift_0f_Bladz

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« Reply #24 on: <10-26-15/1257:17> »
This is not a system to add more complexity too, especially with the current state of affairs in house (God, we need some major erratas).

ShadowRun is a brutal combat system, but so is many others if played right(or wrong). But, no a team doesn't need every roll covered, if both the players and GM agree with what kind of game they want. My group wanted a pink mohawk game with lots of combat. That is what we got. We lack a decker and had (but left) a rigger. We get by, we have a decker contact and now have a former DocWagon HTR medic. Rest of the team is a Shaman/Face, Boom Mage/anti magic Hermetic Mage, and Melee/Tank Adept with decent skill at stealth, disguise, and B&E. We have our roles pretty well figured out, and when stuff goes right, we do great. When the night doesn't, our awesome GM does some background adjustments so we avoid character death unless that is what the player wants.
Quote- Mirikon on 7/30/2019 at 08:26:51
Agreed. This looks like a 'training wheels' edition, that you can use to introduce someone to the setting, and then shift over to something like 5E or 4E. Like how D&D 5E is best used as training wheels for D&D 3.X.

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Mystic

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« Reply #25 on: <10-26-15/1808:22> »
Is Shadowrun brutal? It can be.

Instead of echoing a lot of fine points already made, I'll simply say that in my opinion, you need to try and think about what you're doing before you do it. Everything in this game should have consequences, and that's how I run mine. You want to take your Street Sammie up against six gangers, fine go ahead. You may win but guess what, now you just made a lot of enemies. And let's say that they make tracking you down one of their highest priorities.

Fun.

Or let me use my own current game as an example. Runner team, pretty well balanced but a bit magic heavy (low on muscle), end up in the middle of a war between the local Mafia and Triad. Now said Triad decides to employ a mercenary company to do most of the dirty work. After a few successes against a couple of what amount to mercenary fire-teams, they get cocky and start to treat this like a DnD game, rushing in with "overwhelming" firepower.

Against a mercenary company...right.

So now that the mercs know that this runner team is after them, they start leaking information as bait for a trap. And BOY do the players fall for it. Frontal assault on a fortified warehouse without any recon. I have a fire team with magical backup across the street waiting in an "abandoned" house. While the runners are busy playing Butch and Sundance with the warehouse, the fire team catches the players in a nice cross-fire. The magicians use physical barrier to entrap the runner's van from the sides but leave the top open. Why? Well two fire spirits engulf the van and the fireteam starts launching HE and WP grenades at the van like a lethal game or corn hole. If not for some really lucky rolls on the player's part, and a couple bad on mine, to bust the barrier spell, I would have had a TPK, either from the massed fire, the grenades, or simply cooking them alive. Multiple edge burned to prevent death (twice for two players), van all but trashed, the players ended up running with tail between legs, and NO ONE got out unscathed.

The point was not that I am all powerful GM, it's that a halfway smart enemy is a truly dangerous one. I as a GM had the opposition do THEIR legwork, use tactics, and set up a viable ambush. That, IMHO, is how you make the game "brutal".   
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Checkmate

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« Reply #26 on: <10-26-15/1822:25> »
This is not a system to add more complexity too, especially with the current state of affairs in house (God, we need some major erratas).

ShadowRun is a brutal combat system, but so is many others if played right(or wrong). But, no a team doesn't need every roll covered, if both the players and GM agree with what kind of game they want. My group wanted a pink mohawk game with lots of combat. That is what we got. We lack a decker and had (but left) a rigger. We get by, we have a decker contact and now have a former DocWagon HTR medic. Rest of the team is a Shaman/Face, Boom Mage/anti magic Hermetic Mage, and Melee/Tank Adept with decent skill at stealth, disguise, and B&E. We have our roles pretty well figured out, and when stuff goes right, we do great. When the night doesn't, our awesome GM does some background adjustments so we avoid character death unless that is what the player wants.

One of my group's campaigns is similar. We've got a Merc Campaign that's pretty much Pink Mohawk to the max...lol

CitizenJoe

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« Reply #27 on: <10-26-15/1854:50> »
Remember this mantra:  "Cheat early, cheat often."  There is no good and evil in Shadowrun, only which side of the gun you're facing.

That's pretty much the long and short of the brutality in Shadowrun.  It doesn't have to be balanced, but that means you can swing the advantage to your favor.

Dinendae

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« Reply #28 on: <10-26-15/2342:22> »
Still, it isn't a system where the slightest mistake means you're all going to die (that's Paranoia).

Actually, in Paranoia, you're going to die regardless of if you made a mistake or not.  ;D

Nah, playing Paranoia was the mistake that got you killed.
Also, do you have the clearance to use that winky face? Looks yellow to me...

But I'm happy, and if I'm happy I can't be a Communist!  ;D

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« Reply #29 on: <10-27-15/0043:53> »
Remember Citizen, happiness is mandatory!