Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Gamemasters' Lounge => Topic started by: Overbyte on <03-12-19/1807:24>
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How do you do it?
Do you actually (need to) roll an Unarmed attack?
If you don't get any successes do you just do Base Damage from STR?
So if you have a 7 STR you automatically can break out of Disposable plastic straps (Armor 6, Structure 1)?
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And that's the cops are always packing metal handcuffs. Between the augmented crowd and the regular trogs, you just can't afford to use cheap bits of plastic to restrain a perp anymore.
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Using Escape Artist, pg 135 of SR5.
The threshold is set by the quality/nature of the restraint.
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Using Escape Artist, pg 135 of SR5.
The threshold is set by the quality/nature of the restraint.
Yes. Sorry. I meant not using Escape Artist, what is the procedure?
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There isn't one (for 5th edition), to the best of my knowledge.
Still, superhuman strength is attainable by numerous means, so it's a fair question. Due to the lack of leverage, I'd perhaps be inclined to say it simply can't be done, but that's a very unfun answer.
I'd default to the front of the book for a task like this that doesn't have its own rule. Pg 45 establishes thresholds for various tests. If I were to allow it at all, I'd call busting out of restraints at minimum Very Hard, and probably Extreme for the metal/reinforced cuffs. Maybe a lower threshold to rip a handcuff open with your bare hands if you had leverage, but without leverage I'd say Very Hard at minimum.
Feats of Strength isn't governed by a skill, so it'd be Attribute + Attribute. STR is clearly called for; STR + BOD is probably what I'd call it. Perhaps STR + WIL, representing the ability to force your wrists to go through the pain...
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Yeah, if you're using cheap restraints it's easy to break them. Just try to brute-force them, and roll your own damage resist to see if you end up with bruises. Metal and Plasteel are tougher. Also, if you're tied up in a bad position, it'd be Escape Artist to try to break out. If they're just hands in front, y'all are idiots for tying up like that.
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Yeah, if you're using cheap restraints it's easy to break them. Just try to brute-force them, and roll your own damage resist to see if you end up with bruises. Metal and Plasteel are tougher. Also, if you're tied up in a bad position, it'd be Escape Artist to try to break out. If they're just hands in front, y'all are idiots for tying up like that.
But the question really is... what is the rule for "Just brute forcing them" as you said?
I like what SSDR proposed.
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Yeah, if you're using cheap restraints it's easy to break them. Just try to brute-force them, and roll your own damage resist to see if you end up with bruises. Metal and Plasteel are tougher. Also, if you're tied up in a bad position, it'd be Escape Artist to try to break out. If they're just hands in front, y'all are idiots for tying up like that.
But the question really is... what is the rule for "Just brute forcing them" as you said?
I like what SSDR proposed.
page 447 has this to say:
Restraints: Standard metal restraints (Armor 16,
Structure 2) come with a mechanical or a wireless-controlled
lock (Barriers, p. 197). Modern plasteel restraints
(Armor 20, Structure 2) are flash-fused and remain in
place until the subject is cut free. Disposable plastic
straps (Armor 6, Structure 1) are lightweight and easy to
carry in bundles. Containment manacles are metal (Armor
16, Structure 2) and attached to a prisoner’s wrists
or ankles to prevent her from moving faster than a shuffle
or extending a cyber-implant weapon.
So they are treated as barriers. Going to page 197 we find:
Destroying Barriers
If a character intends to destroy a barrier (or knock a hole
in it), resolve the attack normally. Since barriers can’t
dodge, the attack test is unopposed. The purpose of the
attack test is to generate extra hits to add to the Damage
Value. If a character got no hits, then only apply the base
Damage Value. The only way a character could “miss”
is if he got a critical glitch on the attack test, thus proving
themselves literally unable to hit the broad side of a
barn. A character may use Demolitions as the attack skill
if he has the proper materials and time to set charges.
Before rolling the barrier’s damage resistance test,
adjust the modified Damage Value to reflect the type of
attack, as noted on the Damaging Barriers Table.
Resolve the Damage Resistance Test by rolling the
barrier’s Structure + Armor. Barriers ignore Stun damage.
Apply the remaining DV as damage to the barrier. If
the total boxes of damage are greater than or equal to
the Structure rating, the attack has made a hole in the
structure. Each hole is one square meter per increment
of Structure rating. For example, an attack that dealt 30
net points of damage to a Structure 15 barrier would
create a 2-square-meter hole.
So, basically.. "Yer F'ed." Barriers ignore stun damage, with is all unarmed damage (except for some cyber weapons, and adept abilities - Some of which won't work here), so you have no hope of damaging the restraints.
You need a way to inflict physical damage the restraint to have a chance... and your options are going to be limited to what restraints and how (position) you are in. Even under the "Escape Artist" entry it says that not all restraints can be escaped from (and that has way lower thresholds on the test)
Sometimes, you need a helping hand... or a swift kick to the junk (followed by retrieving the keys!) to get out of bad situations.
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So, basically.. "Yer F'ed." Barriers ignore stun damage, with is all unarmed damage (except for some cyber weapons, and adept abilities - Some of which won't work here), so you have no hope of damaging the restraints.
HAH! Bone Density Augmentation for the win! Instantly turns your unarmed damage into physical! Take that, you weakling mages! =D
Anyway, yeah, what Reaver said: If you can do damage to the things, you follow Barrier rules.
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The reason I don't like the "use the unarmed attack and barrier rules" idea is that unarmed attacks use an unstated assumption of being able to move. Turning your hips into a punch, having the room to make a swing, etc. You may have an unarmed attack value of 14P, but if you're denied the room to maximize your leverage I'm not giving you 14P versus a barrier*. Trying to destroy something by squeezing it in your fist is obviously less effective than taking advantage of making a powerful blow, just as yanking something apart in front of you using both hands with your elbows out is far easier than if that object is holding your wrists together behind your back.
So Michael Chandra makes a good point: the exact circumstances matter with regards to what'd be the best way to mechanically represent breaking out of restraints.
*= if you have some crazy martial arts techniques, ok. I'd entertain the possibility of punching your way out of a "Texas Funeral" all Kill Bill 2 style. SR is afterall, fairly firmly set within the "Movie Physics" part of the RPG cosmos...
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If you are getting out of restraints, use Escape Artist or default to Agility (-1). If you are getting someone else out of restraints, treat them as barriers.
These are the options covered by the rules. I'm not sure I get the intent of asking "What are the rules for doing a thing if I want to ignore the rules for doing that thing?" (meaning that modulo what's already been said about the RAW, you're asking for House Rules.)
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Here’s the thing, it is actually quite possible to break handcuffs or manacles in real life through sheer brute force. It’s not easy, but it is possible. You need to know what you’re doing and it takes some time, as demonstrated here (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=p82ypGazlRc).
Most modern handcuffs are only designed to resist a couple hundred pounds of force, exert more force than that and ping! you’re no longer restrained. This is why law enforcement is trained to maintain positive control of their prisoners, restraints only slow a person down, they don’t stop them.
In the Sixth World, where magic or cybernetics can allow a person to exert thousands of pounds of force... Yeah, you should be able to Superman your way out of handcuffs. (Of course, the people handcuffing you should also be taking better precautions than just slapping some restraints on you... But, well, mooks make mistakes.)
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Getting out of restraints (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Gr6HX_IKpw).
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Getting out of restraints (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Gr6HX_IKpw).
Not a good example of brute forcing :P
They shim the handcuffs, which isn't a brute force.
Then for the zip tys, they used the cheapest commercial versions instead of restraint or industrial quality. (60 times the strength!)
For the Duct Tape, they again used cheapest commercial version available. (you can tell, as you can't see any cross threading of the tape fibers as you can on high quality Duct tape).
And for the LOVE OF GOD, do NOT try what they are suggesting with industrial or restraint quality zip tys... I am tired of dealing of the medical emergencies they inflict on soft tissues of wrist joints... (This was a popular stunt for the Stupid on industrial sites for a time. until they are off work for 3 weeks due to lacerations, joint extensions, and dislocations....)
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Getting out of restraints (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Gr6HX_IKpw).
And for the LOVE OF GOD, do NOT try what they are suggesting with industrial or restraint quality zip tys... I am tired of dealing of the medical emergencies they inflict on soft tissues of wrist joints... (This was a popular stunt for the Stupid on industrial sites for a time. until they are off work for 3 weeks due to lacerations, joint extensions, and dislocations....)
And that would be why even with BDA, you'll need some decent armor to brute-force out of the stronger stuff. -,-
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So, basically.. "Yer F'ed." Barriers ignore stun damage, with is all unarmed damage (except for some cyber weapons, and adept abilities - Some of which won't work here), so you have no hope of damaging the restraints.
You need a way to inflict physical damage the restraint to have a chance... and your options are going to be limited to what restraints and how (position) you are in.
As a GM, I would allow the use of the Harder Knock called shot (SR5, p. 195) to convert unarmed damage from Stun to Physical so that barriers can be destroyed. Otherwise you end up in illogical scenarios where you can't break a window because glass is technically a barrier and your elbow only does Stun damage.
Of course the GM needs to apply common sense in what's possible. If the character is restrained to the point where no movement is possible, then an unarmed attack against the restraint is unrealistic. But if the troll is tied up in rope and just wants to brute force his or her way out, I would at least allow a Attribute-only roll to try to accomplish it. STR+BOD, or STR-only, whatever's reasonable for the situation at hand.
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page 447 has this to say:
<deleted>
So they are treated as barriers. Going to page 197 we find:
Destroying Barriers
<deleted>
So, basically.. "Yer F'ed." Barriers ignore stun damage, with is all unarmed damage (except for some cyber weapons, and adept abilities - Some of which won't work here), so you have no hope of damaging the restraints.
You need a way to inflict physical damage the restraint to have a chance... and your options are going to be limited to what restraints and how (position) you are in. Even under the "Escape Artist" entry it says that not all restraints can be escaped from (and that has way lower thresholds on the test)
Sometimes, you need a helping hand... or a swift kick to the junk (followed by retrieving the keys!) to get out of bad situations.
Right.. this is really what I was talking about.
Since they are barriers you can clearly attack them as such (@JudgeMonroe this is certainly covered by the rules and not a "house rule) so you could shoot at them or any other barrier damaging attack according to RAW, but making an Unarmed attack doesn't make a ton of sense. So I do like the idea of replacing the Unarmed Attack with a pure STR attack with modifiers for position, etc.
And yes.. the character in my game who is restrained is a Troll with Titanium Bone Lacing. :)
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Booyah. =D *snaps cheap ones off in an instance*
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Yeah what people can do when determined is pretty crazy. I know several years ago I watched a documentary about Super Max prisons and some of the inmates they house. One of they guys they covered was doing life with out possibility of parole and was like in his 40s and had been in prison since he was like 19. He was only moved by a full team of 5 correction officers in a straight jacket and shackles. They showed multiple prison surveillance videos of him injuring corrections officers when he literally tore his way out of a full on straight jacket like he was Hulk Hogan ripping of his T-shirt. The guy was not even that big, He was on the larger side but nothing massive. He was absolutely ripped though. He basically spent every day doing nothing but working out, like seriously not joking he did like 500+ push ups, Situps, Leg Lifts, and chin ups a day, and I mean 500+ of each 7 days a week. The officers said he spent most of his time in solitary because hes generally only out for 2 or 3 days before he gets in a fight and generally seriously injures a couple guys and goes back into solitary. But watching that guy go from being in a straight jacket to punching out a corrections officer in less then 10 seconds was pretty chilling.