[Jack_Spade]

For one thing, earlier editions didn't have the caveat that an attack on a barrier would alert the mage.
In fact, everyone with a magic attribute could create long lasting wards at will.

But in fact all these discussions are irrelevant, since I just noticed an important part of the rules:
"The creator of a mana barrier is instantly aware of any attack on the barrier."
Pressing through is not an attack action - that distinction applies only to astral combat/dual natured melee attacks where you just do damage to break down the barrier.
In fact, this sentence is followed by the explanation of the alternative option of pressing through where you don't have to do damage to the barrier.

Any claim that a mage notices things brushing, touching or otherwise manipulating his barrier is not supported by the rules in this or any previous edition (that I know of)

[firebug]

I always thought it seemed pretty clear that you can push through wards without setting them off with Charisma by default.  It requires 1 net hit per active foci or sustained spell.

Or you can initiate and get the flux metamagic, use intuition, and it temporarily suspends anything you'd need net hits for in the first place.

It was, then Street Grimoire made it so it you couldn't (see: my outdated version in my first post) and then had errata to change it back to what the core rulebook implied.

[Kiirnodel]

Jack_Spade, where do you get the idea that alerting the creator never existed before?

Magic in the Shadows (3rd Edition):

Wards are described on p. 174 of SR3. A common passive security measure, they provide barriers in astral space. Because the creator of a ward automatically knows if the ward is attacked in astral combat, wards provide a useful means of detecting astral intruders. The following represent options for wards.

This was before there was an option to "press through" a ward. Which was added in 4th edition.
Street Magic (4th Edition):

Sometimes a magician just has to get through a ward. Attacking it or pressing through it are viable options (see p. 185, SR4), but both alert the ward’s creator to the action, which the magician may want to avoid.

The Concept of pressing through a barrier is re-written into 5th Edition almost verbatim from the entry in 4th edition, and they even copied over that text on "Fooling Wards" in Street Grimoire, but inexplicably they've now decided that mana barriers no longer serve the purpose of alerting their creator to the presence of intruders. Because, I don't know, I guess magical security was "too hard" and players need to be coddled.

[belaran]

Attacking it or pressing through it are viable options (see p. 185, SR4), but both alert the ward’s creator to the action, which the magician may want to avoid.

Ah, I knew I was not completly crazy. I never read the crunch for 4th ed, so I wonder if there is not something like that somewhere else in 3ed or 2nd.

The Concept of pressing through a barrier is re-written into 5th Edition almost verbatim from the entry in 4th edition, and they even copied over that text on "Fooling Wards" in Street Grimoire, but inexplicably they've now decided that mana barriers no longer serve the purpose of alerting their creator to the presence of intruders.

That is the point of this all thread - I really don't think it was intentional. I actually think they were unclear in the core rulebook. Maybe this should be pushed to an errata thread ?

Because, I don't know, I guess magical security was "too hard" and players need to be coddled.

[Rosa]

Maybe it has to do with the fact that you can easily combine various wards as per SG and that the Alarm Ward from SG could be combined with a normal ward fairly easily to achieve the desired effect of alarming the creator if anything passes through it or the alarm ward could be placed so that you passed through it immediately after pressing through the normal ward, which would make detecting the alarm ward much harder. SR5 has moved in the direction of making everything more specialised, so maybe that goes for ward making as well.

[Kiirnodel]

The only problem I have with that stance, Rosa, is that the primary feature of the Alarm Ward is that it is unobtrusive. We already know that Wards alert the creator under at least some circumstances. There is proof positive that they alert when they are attacked, at the very least. There are actually two instances of other Ward types referring to Alarm Wards: Obfuscating and Trap. Both of these types say that they "function exactly like an Alarm Ward" or are "similar to the Alarm Ward" and in both cases they are referring to the fact that they don't impede people, they don't function as barriers like a normal ward does.

A Trap ward starts out in an "off" state and then becomes a solid barrier when someone enters into it. And an Obfuscating Ward only blocks Detection spells specifically.

To use a real-life security system example, I imagine normal Wards are like Alarming your doors/windows. They are a physical impedance, blocking entry and unless you are an allowed user, they alert the authorities if you go through them. They always set the alarm off when attacked. On the other hand, Alarm Wards are like motion detectors or invisible trip-wires. They don't block your progress, but set off the alarm if you enter.


This has been a debate on if pressing through wards circumvents setting off the alert. Does anyone think that accidentally walking through shouldn't alert the ward's creator? That is to say, if someone with an active spell isn't paying attention to wards and accidentally walks through one, (which causes an astral intersection) and their spell gets stripped off by the barrier. I think that would be alerted to the ward's creator.

[belaran]

Jack_Spade and I are playing a play-by-post game and this how decide to conclude: Yes, pushing through by default notify the barrier owner, but one can buy the following Metamagic quality to become "stealthy":

"Sneaky Slip Through"
5 Karma
Minimum Requirements: Charisma 6
Characters with this quality have learned to pass through mana barriers without harming the weave. A "Press Through" attempt doesn't alert the ward's creator and the character can use a -10 Ini interrupt action to avoid astral intersection with a successful "Press Through" attempt.

I though it would be relevant to add it to this thread

[Rosa]

I'm aware it's not what most people in this thread wants yes, but my point is that you can recreate the Ward that alerts it's creator both when someone attacks it or when someone presses through it by combining an alarm ward and a normal ward,  since the ward takes on the characteristics of both wards then the alarm ward part would take care of the alert when someone presses through as it states that it alerts the creator whether someone attacks it or simply passes through it.

You loose the unobtrusive quality yes, but you gain an alert where they errata'ed an alert away, and you could argue that since an alarm ward is by its nature unobtrusive it would be very difficult to identify it being part of the combined ward.

Tbh I'm more annoyed that they changed the ability to fool wards from masking to Flux, I think it has weakened the masking metamagic considerably and flux already had the defense against ritual magic and the not leaving any Astral signatures behind going for it.

[Tarislar]

Very interesting.

This has made me look up barriers again & now I'm having a question.

Astral Intersections:  Pg. 316

When 2 astral options are forced into each other due to their physical objects it forces an Astral Intersection.

What it doesn't seem to spell out is an Astral Intersection considered at "Attack" or a "Pass through"

It isn't spelled out either way.

[Tarislar]

I like the interpretation that the Ward Caster is only updated when something Attacks the Barrier. 

As stated above, it would get lame if you were constantly being pinged all day long every time an awakened person walked through the front door while having anything astral going on.

[firebug]

That's because it's neither, it's a third "option":  Drive your car through the barrier and pass out behind the wheel as your soul gets slammed out of your body.

Whether this alerts the barrier's owner isn't stated.  If you rule that the barriers only respond to "attacks", which would presumably be anything that actually causes damage to them, then it wouldn't (unless the barrier doesn't win and gets disrupted, that definitely would alert the owner).  If you think things touching the barrier alert the owner (which I realized I said earlier, but now I'm not so sure, because I don't think the "subtle" attempt in SR5 is intended to alert if you fail--  whether or not people think that's how it should be is another matter) then Astral Intersections always send an alert, even if the barrier wins out and your unconscious body makes it through.