[PiXeL01]

If the owner was alerted every time someone slided against a ward the owner wouldn’t get a night’s rest ever. I’m sure wild spirits and other astral entities would playfully press against many a barrier they find without trying to penetrate it. In my opinion an owner is only alerted when a ward is attacked or an attempt to penetrate fails.

[Kiirnodel]

PiXeL, if I'm reading what you just said right, you said "it would be insane if the owner of a barrier was alerted every time something attempted to penetrate the barrier" because "random entities could be poking around all the time"
But you also said that they should be alerted if the barrier gets attacked or an attempt to penetrate fails?

That seems extremely counter-intuitive and completely backwards of what you would want in a security system. It's like saying that you should only be alerted when people check to see if your door is unlocked, and not when someone successfully picks the lock. Plus if you think that the barrier is going to be constantly "slid against" wouldn't that be exactly what would set it off by that metric? Or are you saying that wild spirits and other astral entities would be playfully pressing against the barrier and succeeding?

I'm not suggesting that attempting (and failing) to press through should alert the creator of the barrier, I'm saying that successfully pressing through should. Actually passing the threshold of the barrier is what gets alerted to the owner, unless that entity is an approved one, which is what the metamagics let you simulate.

[firebug]

Something bouncing off the barrier playfully would alert the owner.  On the upside, you probably won't have any devil rats in your warded area!

It's less "the barrier doesn't alert when people go through it" and more "properly picking the lock means no alarm goes off".  It's that properly passing through the barrier includes doing it subtly enough to not alert someone.  The barrier does not alert the owner, because the whole point of pressing through subtly is that you don't trigger the barrier.

[PiXeL01]

Just ignore me today. I’m not making much sense ...

[Mittensworth]

Could always utilize the Flux metamagic if you have it.  Intuition+Magic instead of Charisma+Magic, plus you don't need a bunch of net hits.

[firebug]

Could always utilize the Flux metamagic if you have it.  Intuition+Magic instead of Charisma+Magic, plus you don't need a bunch of net hits.

I think the argument is more "should people be able to do it without having to initiate and learn a single metamagic just for that".

[Kiirnodel]

To be fair, both Flux and Astral Doppelganger do more than just let you fool wards.

[Beta]

Wards with a watcher or spirit patrolling inside are pretty effective against astral intruders.  The action to get in and out keeps them from fast fly-by checks, and tells you anyone coming in is not randomly passing by.  And the patrolled is protected from easy take down until the intruders are through.  And the intruders know they can't flee freely if they are over matched in astral combat.

Even without astral patrol, the risk of being noticed is real.  It is a bit like hacking, even when you expect to succeed there is a risk of setting off an alert,  and that can be a disincentive all by itself.

[Mittensworth]

I always thought it seemed pretty clear that you can push through wards without setting them off with Charisma by default.  It requires 1 net hit per active foci or sustained spell.

Or you can initiate and get the flux metamagic, use intuition, and it temporarily suspends anything you'd need net hits for in the first place.

[belaran]

I always thought it seemed pretty clear that you can push through wards without setting them off with Charisma by default.

For me, it sounded more like this option was there for dual-natured creature, without magical skills, being forced to pass through barrier. When I read it, it sounded more like something being added, after the fact, because somebody pointed out that a ghoul (for instance) should be able to pass (somehow) through a barrier, without having Astral Combat.

I can't be sure, but it really feels for me that rule as intended is that there is no way to go through an astral barrier quietly. (otherwise, I think they are pretty useless). Then the Astral Infiltrator quality came to offer an option to do it without being noticed.

To make my point, imagine, it would be so easy to go through astral barrier, they will be a lot of "astral spy", who would simply pushes throu, manifest (maybe cast invisibily), destroy the mcguffins and/or spy and go away without even leaving one's safehouse. It would be the equivalent of the stay at home decker from the 3ed and previous... If you can astrally reconnaissance so easily I think it will tip the balance of the game.

The way I see it, if a runner group are casing a facility, they may decide to have an astral reckon performed, but this will mean breaking barrier and letting the astral entity only a few instants to do a bit of reckon, before being chased away or even attacked by the security.  (which will tip off a bit the security that the place is being cased, but exactly like going into its matrix hosts might also lead them to suspect they are being cased).

That's my 2 cents.

Sidenote: somebody mentioned something about the barrier caster being "annoyed" every time something passing nearby his barrier. That does not seems to be the case because the barrier owner is only notify when the barrier is breached, so one something actually go through it (not just bounce off).

[Jack_Spade]

IIRC every dual natured entity has a natural weapon which can be used to batter down a barrier (which is why astral combat is one of the less useful skills)

The comparison to hacking is apt: You can brute force which alerts everyone - i.e. astral combat/natural weapon, or you can use sleaze which if it works doesn't alert anyone - i.e. subtly press through

Looked at from the other side: Why would you use press through if it alerts the mage just like you made a hole into his wall? For that matter, why bother with that as a mage if you could just cast a sustained high force spell with low drain  and have it intersect with the barrier to take it down?

Flux requires you to be at least a second level initiate, making it impossible for any kind of dual-natured non-mage/adept to ever enter a warded area without causing alarm. That doesn't sound like the intended way for a game that thrives on espionage and stealth tropes.

[belaran]

That's a good point. I just find that the push through method is too defeating. Anybody with a good score in Charisma can easily go through a Astral Barrier, without even the help of a awakened character. Also, if Push Through is stealthy, a lot of mechanism designed to go around are pretty much useless. The Astral Infiltrator quality (as we mentioned) became entirely "overpriced" for what it is...

I just wish we had an official answer, and it will be part of the errata. That will close the debate (at least for me). Then, maybe to make my astral barrier a bit more sturdy, I would give a bonus for awakened Character (2d) to go through but request a Threshold to be met (maybe just F/4) for Push Through, making it an option, but a difficut one (thus bring again value to the other mechanisms...).

But at least, it seems clear, after two pages of exchanges on this thread, that there is no official answer.

[Jack_Spade]

The astral infiltrator helps you to bring others through, which is pretty useful (you can cross over multiple times, so even less charismatic dual natured characters have a chance to move through)

[Kiirnodel]

I wouldn't base any rulings around Dual Natured, the game isn't designed around them, and they aren't the standard. It is, by and large, a disadvantage. It makes sense for being Dual-Natured to cause more problems, or at least complicate things.

If we base anything on precedence, in previous editions the only way to bypass a ward stealthily was with metamagics. Or by circumventing the ward entirely (don't have magic that gets blocked by the ward). I don't remember that ever being an issue back then. Nobody complained that wards were too hard to deal with, so what's with all the pampering now?

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

... Nobody complained that wards were too hard to deal with, so what's with all the pampering now?

Not that this is an informed guess by any means, but if my very small local pool is at all representative of the bigger ocean out there:

Perhaps magicians are used to blowing edge on summoning a huge spirit, then more edge on having that spirit cast massive buffs on them then stick around to carry the sustained spell penalties.   They might get touchy when they have to re-cast their uber buffs after investing so much EDG in them...