[belaran]

Hi,

it's not very clear to me, when I read the description of "pushing through an astral barrier" that the operation is not being noticed by the barrier maker. For me, it sounded like a mechanical way, for a dual natured creature (but not awakened, like a regular ghoul) to go through a barrier.

And thus, when the Astral Infiltrator Quality appeared in Forbidden Arcana, it felt to me like a very interesting option, because it finally offered a sneaky way to get into an astrally protected location. But, if Pushing Through is sneaky, the Astral Infiltrator quality becomes very much uninteresting...

What do you think ? Is there an FAQ entry maybe addressing this?

@Jack_Spade I already know your answers about this, but let's other people share their reasoning before posting your point of view on it

[firebug]

Well, unfortunately, Street Grimoire makes it clear that the options available in the core rulebook both alert the owner.

FOOLING WARDS
It is possible to attack a mana barrier or to press through it (p. 315, SR5), but doing so alerts the ward’s creator to the action, which is something the magician may want to avoid. A magician may use Flux if they have learned it, or become the astral doppelganger of a person approved to pass through the ward. Crossing the ward using either option requires an Opposed Test of the character’s Intuition + Magic + initiate grade vs. Force of the ward x 2. If the individual succeeds in this test, they are able to cross the ward without alerting the ward’s creator. If they failed, they cannot cross, but they have not yet alerted the ward’s creator. If a material link or spotter was used to generate an astral doppelganger, reduce the ward’s dice pool by 4; if a sympathetic link was used, reduce the ward’s dice pool by 2.

That said, the Astral Infiltrator quality does nothing to make your attempts sneakier.  It only weakens the wards you go through, after you've gone through them.

[Jack_Spade]

Do we have different editions of the Street Grimoire?

Mine's the Second Printing and reads on Fooling Wards p.135

"It is possible to attack a mana barrier (p. 315, SR5), but doing so alerts the ward’s creator to the action, which is something the magician may want to avoid. A magician may use Flux if they have learned it, or become the astral doppelganger of a person approved to pass through the ward. Crossing the ward using either option requires an Opposed Test of the character’s Intuition + Magic + initiate grade vs. Force of the ward x 2. If the individual succeeds in this test, they are able to cross the ward without alerting the ward’s creator. If they failed, they cannot cross, but they have not yet alerted the ward’s creator. If a material link or spotter was used to generate an astral
doppelganger, reduce the ward’s dice pool by 4; if a sympathetic link was used, reduce the ward’s dice pool by 2."

So attacking is clearly alerting the mage, but pressing through isn't mentioned in mine.
The main benefit of Flux seems to be that you get your initiate grade and your Intuition compared to your Cha+Mag with the more traditional Press Through.

[Kiirnodel]

Well that is frustrating. I was under the impression that the advanced techniques listed in Street Grimoire were expressly presented as a way to sneak through wards. That is to say, before they were added there wasn't a way to move through them without detection. This idea was supported by (but did not require) my knowledge of the previous edition. In the move to 5th edition, the specific metamagic techniques used to "stealth through" a ward changed slightly (they changed it from Masking to Flexible Signature/Flux and added the ritual), but the core concept stayed the same.

I was fine with change to Flexible Signature being the metamagic required to fool a ward. I have no idea why they errata'd out the mention that pressing through a ward alerts its creator.

[PiXeL01]

I just downloaded the newest version off Drivethrurpg and the pressing against part has been removed so only attacking the ward alerts the owner.

[Kiirnodel]

Yeah, like I said, it was errata'd.

Doesn't mean it makes sense that it was. If you can do it completely untrained, what's the point of the metamagic techniques?


That's definitely a piece of errata I'm not going to integrate for my own games...

[PiXeL01]

Yeah they sent out too versions, one only with new art and then quickly added the changes afterwards.

The metamagic techniques are supposed to make pressing through easier I suspect, something I support. None initiates should have a chance at remaining undetected as well

Edit:
Link to errata - https://www.shadowruntabletop.com/wp-content/uploads/Downloads/E-CAT27003E_SG-Errata.pdf

[Kiirnodel]

Non-initiates can bypass a ward stealthily. It's called turning off the magic. If you don't have any active magic the ward has nothing to stop, so it doesn't create any sort of alert.

Fooling the ward is having your cake and eating it too. I think getting your magic through and completely bypassing the ward should take special training. Otherwise wards are nearly useless...

[firebug]

Ah jeeze, I feel kind of ashamed for not having been aware it'd be changed via errata already.

Non-initiates can bypass a ward stealthily. It's called turning off the magic. If you don't have any active magic the ward has nothing to stop, so it doesn't create any sort of alert.

Fooling the ward is having your cake and eating it too. I think getting your magic through and completely bypassing the ward should take special training. Otherwise wards are nearly useless...

I see what you're saying, but since non-initiates can indeed just turn off their magic, wards already fail to work on most people which greatly impacts their effectiveness even without dual-natured creatures being able to push through.  Though really, that's not as great an option as you may realize, as it really only works reliably for a few character types.

Your elf shaman can push through a F5 Ward with his 8 CHA and 6 MAG, but a ghoul with 2-3 Charisma and 1 Magic is screwed against anything higher than F3, realistically.  Even against metahumans, a non-Charisma tradition mage with Quickening is going to need a different way around wards, especially when you take into account them needing several net hits.  Even spirits, the ones in the core book do not get bonuses to Charisma.  So a spirit needs to have a higher Force than the Ward to be able to reliably get past the Ward without setting it off.  In the end, Wards aren't supposed to be the end-all anti-magic security.  If they were, magic wouldn't still be seen as the massive threat it is.

[PiXeL01]

Well, Dual Natured beings now have a mastery quality that allows them to turn off their astral presence thanks to Forbidden Arcana called Dual-Natured Defender p. 36.
Still free spirits and pure astral being should have a slight chance at bypassing wards, no?

[firebug]

They totally do.  I'm saying that it's enough to make it not a non-issue for them, without just being so effective that even a wizgang can just be like "Oh, we're warded, so we're totally safe now!"  Which is a good thing.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Pretty much every security measure has a countermeasure that virtually neutralizes it.

I suppose it's appropriate that wards are no more effective than say cameras or razorwire on top of fences.  As part of a layered defense plan they have important roles, but they're not a sensible security plan all by themselves.

[Rosa]

Indeed the primary function of wards are to stop Astral intruders such as spirits and projecting magicians not to stop dual natured beings or magicians that turn their magic off, they help of course, but stopping those intrusions is primarily up to physical security.

[Kiirnodel]

But if pressing through doesn't alert the owner, wards aren't even serving that basic function of keeping astral entities out. They can just press through, and nothing happens.

It's like setting up a trip wire that isn't attached to anything. it's mildly annoying, but doesn't really do anything.

[firebug]

That's assuming they can all always get through, which isn't the case.  You need either a high Force spirit or a powerful Charisma-tradition magician to just push through a decent ward.  That's not even most PCs, and when you take into account that PCs are supposed to be way more skilled than the average person, even the average Awakened person, you can see how a F6 Mana Barrier is still well worth the investment and will go a decent way towards protecting you.  It just can't do it all by itself.