[Triggvi]

I find Uncouth and its sister flaws (Infirm, Uneducated) to be too crippling for my personal taste.  But I imagine the game designers thought Uncouth characters could be shadowrunners, or it would not be an option in the game.  Not to mention that three of the archetypes have it.  Looking at them, the bounty hunter and the enforcer are probably antisocial and prone to resorting to violence with little provocation, while the hacker is likelier to be an antisocial, slightly paranoid tech geek.  But they still have some basic contacts, and seem to be able to function in their roles (or at least it seems to be assumed that they do).

All I am saying is that a runner needs social skills, they don't have to be very high. An uncouth character with no social skills with piss off a great many people. He may never know why he does it. Taking uncouth as a role-playing aspect is cool with me. Taking it as a way to get free BP with no down side, I am not ok with. I go out of my way to have characters with some social skill, 5 or 6 dice is pretty inexpensive. a Socially inept character can be a shadowrunner, but the player needs to figure out how the runner handles that in regards to his contacts. Neg qualities should never be just free BP, they are ment to be role-play aspects of the character.

[savaze]

Every time I see this thread I think we're talking about hitting people! I'll shamelessly link this other thread that relates to the topic at hand...

[The Seven]

Every time I see this thread I think we're talking about hitting people! I'll shamelessly link this other thread that relates to the topic at hand...

Rules of thumb differs from mandatory skills; it's much more wide. Things like "always take the maximum BP possible with negative qualities" or "always have more than one fake SIN" or "have at least two lifestyles; one for you to show the team and the other to be your safe house."

Both threads are valid, man, but the one you linked is too focused on skills only.

[savaze]

I'm aware this is a more broadly focused thread but I thought it would be appropriate to link the other thread since it is related.

Uh...
I know Rule of Thumb is used, among others, to mean using the appropriate set of rules for a given situation, but it has so many negative connotations that it's generally avoided in polite conversation in this P.C. society (e.g. the 18th century English Law that said you were allowed to hit your wife with with a stick no wider than your thumb). I'm not a P.C. person by any means, hence my hitting people comment... I thought I'd pass along that tidbit to fulfill my habit of random posts late at night.

[The Seven]

I'm aware this is a more broadly focused thread but I thought it would be appropriate to link the other thread since it is related.

Uh...
I know Rule of Thumb is used, among others, to mean using the appropriate set of rules for a given situation, but it has so many negative connotations that it's generally avoided in polite conversation in this P.C. society (e.g. the 18th century English Law that said you were allowed to hit your wife with with a stick no wider than your thumb). I'm not a P.C. person by any means, hence my hitting people comment... I thought I'd pass along that tidbit to fulfill my habit of random posts late at night.

Fair enough. My bad.

[Glyph]

I agree that Uncouth should not be free build points - in fact, generally it is worse than most negative qualities.  Legwork is about a third of the game, so you're really cutting yourself off at the knees by taking this flaw.  Plus, player characters can be affected by social skills, so being defenseless in that area is really not wise.

[Whipstitch]

I think it's important to keep in mind the concept of trivial tasks and the fact that NPCs should have interests of their own when you consider what a socially inept character can and cannot do in a given situation. For example, most days someone with a low Charisma and no skills shouldn't have problems picking up a burrito at the Stuffer Shack because the people there are already inclined to sell him one. Think of it not as a socially inept character managing to fit in but rather the NPCs making a successful sale. Now, if the guy behind the counter would rather keep chatting up some cutie rather than keep the line moving, Mr. Uncouth will be stuck waiting until the guy's good and ready since any roll he tries to make is at best going to be ineffectual. It's really not a small drawback at all, because as a shadowrunner it's likely that sooner or later you'll run into a situation in which people will want to kick your teeth in and there's simply not much you can do about it other than fight back or turn tail.

[Kontact]

All I am saying is that a runner needs social skills, they don't have to be very high. An uncouth character with no social skills with piss off a great many people. He may never know why he does it. Taking uncouth as a role-playing aspect is cool with me. Taking it as a way to get free BP with no down side, I am not ok with. I go out of my way to have characters with some social skill, 5 or 6 dice is pretty inexpensive. a Socially inept character can be a shadowrunner, but the player needs to figure out how the runner handles that in regards to his contacts. Neg qualities should never be just free BP, they are ment to be role-play aspects of the character.

Well, I do like a bit of social skills, but I wouldn't say they're mandatory.  Someone with no social skills won't be able to do certain things, but that's part of why they have team mates.  There is a difference between being bad at something and being unaware of it.

So, without Charisma and Social skills, a character isn't going to:
1) Con - Lie convincingly or tell when they're being lied to.  (Judge Intentions tests could let them know if a person is hostile or over-eager, just not why.)
2) Etiquette - Convince people to like them better or not be drawn in by someone else's likability.
3) Intimidation - Scare people into being nicer to them, though, with Willpower opposed, they might still be able to stand up to a threat, but, otherwise, deference is the order of the day.
4) Leadership - Convince people to follow their orders or advice, though, again, Willpower can still keep them from being a toady.
5) Negotiation - Argue for a better position on something or keep an advantage which they can't justify.

Those are the weapons of the Social character.  They're powerful, but so is an Ares Alpha.  Not everyone needs to tote an Ares Alpha. 
For the Uncouth though, it's a real problem because they're so clueless that they don't know how bad they are at these things.  Then you get the Dunning–Kruger effect, where their complete lack of ability doesn't afford them the perspective to see just how terrible they are at it.

As a counter example, a hacker I'm playing in the Road to Redmond PbP game has a Charisma of 2 and no social skills but is well aware of his effects on others (dp of 10 for judge intentions,) and is no pushover (Willpower of 6.)  He has a tendency to like and trust charismatic people so long as they're acing reasonable, and he'll do things like tell them a lot more than he should and defer to their judgment on what's fair.  He doesn't lie, except by staying quiet about something.  He doesn't try to bargain, because he trusts reasonable people to work something out... or to be unreasonable and get their ass shot.  He's very logical (effective logic of 11,) but takes it in stride when people disregard his logic.  He doesn't bother with threats, because, as a Gnome, he's used to being dismissed.  He knows better than to try to win people's confidence, so, being a clever bastard, when he talks to someone (and he talks a lot) he antagonizes them in such a was as to draw responses out of them. 

[Sichr]

Effective logic 11? What the 
Ive read that char, it has logic 7. What do yyou mean by the word "effective"?
No offense, just currious

[Triggvi]

All I am saying is that a runner needs social skills, they don't have to be very high. An uncouth character with no social skills with piss off a great many people. He may never know why he does it. Taking uncouth as a role-playing aspect is cool with me. Taking it as a way to get free BP with no down side, I am not ok with. I go out of my way to have characters with some social skill, 5 or 6 dice is pretty inexpensive. a Socially inept character can be a shadowrunner, but the player needs to figure out how the runner handles that in regards to his contacts. Neg qualities should never be just free BP, they are ment to be role-play aspects of the character.

Well, I do like a bit of social skills, but I wouldn't say they're mandatory.  Someone with no social skills won't be able to do certain things, but that's part of why they have team mates.  There is a difference between being bad at something and being unaware of it.

So, without Charisma and Social skills, a character isn't going to:
1) Con - Lie convincingly or tell when they're being lied to.  (Judge Intentions tests could let them know if a person is hostile or over-eager, just not why.)
2) Etiquette - Convince people to like them better or not be drawn in by someone else's likability.
3) Intimidation - Scare people into being nicer to them, though, with Willpower opposed, they might still be able to stand up to a threat, but, otherwise, deference is the order of the day.
4) Leadership - Convince people to follow their orders or advice, though, again, Willpower can still keep them from being a toady.
5) Negotiation - Argue for a better position on something or keep an advantage which they can't justify.

Those are the weapons of the Social character.  They're powerful, but so is an Ares Alpha.  Not everyone needs to tote an Ares Alpha. 
For the Uncouth though, it's a real problem because they're so clueless that they don't know how bad they are at these things.  Then you get the Dunning–Kruger effect, where their complete lack of ability doesn't afford them the perspective to see just how terrible they are at it.

As a counter example, a hacker I'm playing in the Road to Redmond PbP game has a Charisma of 2 and no social skills but is well aware of his effects on others (dp of 10 for judge intentions,) and is no pushover (Willpower of 6.)  He has a tendency to like and trust charismatic people so long as they're acing reasonable, and he'll do things like tell them a lot more than he should and defer to their judgment on what's fair.  He doesn't lie, except by staying quiet about something.  He doesn't try to bargain, because he trusts reasonable people to work something out... or to be unreasonable and get their ass shot.  He's very logical (effective logic of 11,) but takes it in stride when people disregard his logic.  He doesn't bother with threats, because, as a Gnome, he's used to being dismissed.  He knows better than to try to win people's confidence, so, being a clever bastard, when he talks to someone (and he talks a lot) he antagonizes them in such a was as to draw responses out of them.

Just to point out the problem of a charisma 2 and no skill. You are rolling default, that means 1 out of 6 rolls is a critical glitch. 1 out of 6 times you call your contacts you critically glitch.  All the judge intentions rolls in the world will not undo a critical glitch. The face doesn't handle your contacts you do. I would never say that social skills are mandatory, just a real good idea. Etiquette 1 would help make it less likely you critically glitch. (3 dice instead of 1 Die). A with it Gm would make you roll the dice everytime  you called your contacts.

I can understand the role playing aspects of the character. Not offense intended, but It seems like you are rationalizing the min-maxing of your Gnome hacker. Smart player can rationalized anything. (grin)

[Sichr]

Being Uncouth is real fun. And When combined with Hung Out to dry, You only need to thing out really good reason how to get your character in the game, and no glitches on the Horizon

[Triggvi]

Being Uncouth is real fun. And When combined with Hung Out to dry, You only need to thing out really good reason how to get your character in the game, and no glitches on the Horizon

I have played my share of less than sociable characters. I know how much fun it can be.

There is a time to let your uncouth character at the people you really are trying to piss off. You don't tell him that, you tell him to go in there and make friends.

[Sichr]

Being Uncouth is real fun. And When combined with Hung Out to dry, You only need to thing out really good reason how to get your character in the game, and no glitches on the Horizon

I have played my share of less than sociable characters. I know how much fun it can be.

There is a time to let your uncouth character at the people you really are trying to piss off. You don't tell him that, you tell him to go in there and make friends.

LOL

[Kontact]

Just to point out the problem of a charisma 2 and no skill. You are rolling default, that means 1 out of 6 rolls is a critical glitch. 1 out of 6 times you call your contacts you critically glitch.  All the judge intentions rolls in the world will not undo a critical glitch. The face doesn't handle your contacts you do. I would never say that social skills are mandatory, just a real good idea. Etiquette 1 would help make it less likely you critically glitch. (3 dice instead of 1 Die). A with it Gm would make you roll the dice everytime  you called your contacts.

I don't think that socials work like you think that they work. 
As I understand them, using social skills is a conscious act of manipulation, not a default mode of interaction.

For example, you don't need to have etiquette to not act like a jerk.  You need it to convince a guy, who thinks you're a jerk, that you are not a jerk.  It's used to change people's opinion of you.  So, if you're calling a contact, the only time you'd use etiquette is if you're trying to improve your relationship.  Just like you would only use Negotiation to convince them to do you a favor above their loyalty rating.

Effective logic 11? What the 
Ive read that char, it has logic 7. What do yyou mean by the word "effective"?
No offense, just currious

Logic of 7, +4 to logic-linked skills.  Basically a logic of 11.

[Triggvi]

I don't think that socials work like you think that they work. 
As I understand them, using social skills is a conscious act of manipulation, not a default mode of interaction.

For example, you don't need to have etiquette to not act like a jerk.  You need it to convince a guy, who thinks you're a jerk, that you are not a jerk.  It's used to change people's opinion of you.  So, if you're calling a contact, the only time you'd use etiquette is if you're trying to improve your relationship.  Just like you would only use Negotiation to convince them to do you a favor above their loyalty rating.

using etiquette
The Etiquette skill allows a character to fit in. More than just the knowledge of customs, rituals, and proper behavior patterns, it represents a character’s ability to talk the talk and walk
the walk without stepping on anyone’s toes. (SR4A book pg 133)