[Ten-Hex]

One of my Rules of Thumps is:
Don't fall for the Stormwind Fallacies
(and : Synergy is your friend)

He who Dances with aFriend
Medicineman

so you are saying use karmagen instead of BP to make better  more rounded character?

The Stormwind Fallacy is the belief that a character optimized for combat or built by someone trying to tweak as much use as humanly possible out of the game mechanics is somehow a poorly-designed or poorly-roleplayed character. What he's saying is don't buy into this.

Plenty of people who are fantastic with numbers and/or have an intuitive grasp for mechanical processes are fully capable of crafting a complex, well-planned character personality around the framework of numbers they have already created. The character personality does not need to come before the numbers; having the numbers or an optimized game mechanic come first is an equally valid method of character creation.

[Triggvi]

I am all for optimizing, it is the min/maxing that is the trap. One way to avoid the trap is to start with the concept and an understanding of the character before you start so you don't fall in to the bp trap that ends up with a nim/maxed unplayable character.

[LonePaladin]

One way I've gotten around the min-max trap is to encourage all of my players to add an 'oddball' skill to their Active Skill selection, something that runs completely counter to their role, but isn't useless either. Even if it's something that rarely comes into play, there's bound to be a point where it turns into one of those butt-saving items (potentially earning the "right place/right time" Karma award).

F'rinstance, my group's melee-oriented cyber-sam has the Outdoor group, so he knows a bit of wilderness survival. He's had a bit of fun combining his Navigation skill with his plethora of mapsofts, planning routes for the team. (He also bought a maxed-out general-knowledge soft, I titled it "Encyclopedia Generica".)

I also encouraged them to do the oddball route on their knowledge skills, picking out one or two things that aren't immediately relevant, but might be fun to have. The Catholic mage in the party is fluent in Hebrew, just 'cause.

[Kontact]

I am all for optimizing, it is the min/maxing that is the trap. One way to avoid the trap is to start with the concept and an understanding of the character before you start so you don't fall in to the bp trap that ends up with a nim/maxed unplayable character.

I prefer the challenge of roleplaying a character according to his stats.  It's more satisfying to me to create a recipe of a person and try to move into the role than it is to say "I wanna play [Character] from [Movie/show]," which is the other mode I often see.

[farothel]

I normally start with a one-line concept, something like ex-intelligence agency B&E adept, or something simular.  With that I start doing the numbers and while I'm working on those (it can take a while in Shadowrun) I'm thinking up a more detailed background, taking into account the skills I'm taking.  When finished with the numbers part, I write out the complete background (often 2-3 pages, I like writing backgrounds).  Often I go back to the skills and stats and tweak them a little bit, based on ideas I had while writing the background.  That way you have a character with a good background and stats that are in line with it.

[GravelThroat]

1) rule of thumb I use for characters is always have a high edge 4-6. Edge keeps you alive and it allows you a more 4 color approach to play.

2) Cyber stacks with Cyber, Bio with bio, adept powers with adept powers. There are exeptions, but if follow this you will not problems.

3) Come up with a concept then plug in numbers and make it work. The character is person, not a archetype.

Does any one else have simple rules (rule of thumb) you go by for making characters?

bio and magic can stack in social situations.

[Teyl_Iliar]

I have learned from experience that every character needs perception, dodge, etiquette, at least one if not 2 skills that involve weapons or combat. Otherwise I try to imagine who the character is as I go along, sort of like I'm feeling them out as they come to life. That's my style anyway.

[John Shull]

One of my Rules of Thumps is:
Don't fall for the Stormwind Fallacies
(and : Synergy is your friend)

He who Dances with aFriend
Medicineman

so you are saying use karmagen instead of BP to make better  more rounded character?

The Stormwind Fallacy is the belief that a character optimized for combat or built by someone trying to tweak as much use as humanly possible out of the game mechanics is somehow a poorly-designed or poorly-roleplayed character. What he's saying is don't buy into this.

Plenty of people who are fantastic with numbers and/or have an intuitive grasp for mechanical processes are fully capable of crafting a complex, well-planned character personality around the framework of numbers they have already created. The character personality does not need to come before the numbers; having the numbers or an optimized game mechanic come first is an equally valid method of character creation.

This approach to characters works mostly against them in my experience.  Making a new character yields a playable diverse individual able to manipulate the genre they are in.  Stacking a character, know as Frankensteining, munchkin making, etc., to max out in combat is self defeating in that the story will shift to accomodate the character playing the adventure.  IE if your shadowrun team has a Ninja who stays in improved invis at all times as a mystic adept with spell lock and has physical adept powers to ginsu all that live the GM will find a anti magic zone, evil or good twin ninja, etc to correct the imbalance.  GM will challenge the group.  Unbalanced characters just have one option, all in or bust.  More balanced characters when they hit obstacles will divert around, try a different tact, get some teamwork going, trickery, or some other scheme.  Just saying you get more out of the game when your not a one trick pony.  Many uber combatants will stress that they are not, they can kill swiftly and brutally in many different ways of loud and quiet.  This always makes me think of that clockwork Nazi from Hellboy and while he is handful to dance with unless river of death is your game why would you want to play that out as your only move everytime something happens.  I am weird in that I always felt sad for the old clockwork nazi killing machine.  He could only never lose as I don't see what he was ever really winning. 

[John Shull]

Just wanted to reiterate that my style of play is just that, mine.  Different strokes for one and all, etc.  Did not want the last post to be argumentative as much as a useful counterpoint point of view.  It came across a different than I thought on the reread.

[Triggvi]

I agree that a one trick pony not of much use. A character should be able to take on several roles some better than others.

 A street sam that has no social skills is a big problem. A face that can't use a weapon to save there his life is a problem as well. Balance is needed.

People need to remember that characters are people not invincible killing robots from the future.

[Ten-Hex]

Just wanted to reiterate that my style of play is just that, mine.  Different strokes for one and all, etc.  Did not want the last post to be argumentative as much as a useful counterpoint point of view.  It came across a different than I thought on the reread.

It's all good, counterpoint is always appreciated.

"Optimized" does not mean creating a one-trick pony character. It means understanding the mechanics on an intuitive level to squeeze as much performance out of the character for a particular game. In most games, that means you need to be able to cover yourself for a wide variety of rolls and be a functional character. Assuming that someone optimizing a character is building a monodimensional character or one-trick pony is also buying into the Stormwind Fallacy. It's a bad assumption to make.

Also, I disagree that a GM will shift a story to accomodate the player's special little trick. Your typical shadowrun game has a huge variety of challenges, and the one-trick pony will have enough trouble from his lack of diversity without the GM needing to throw special challenges at him or cater the game to one character. A one-trick pony is like a Maginot Line; a smart GM goes around it and carries on with business as usual.

EDIT: Actually, the smartest thing a GM can do is to let the player know the one-trick pony won't really operate well in the campaign, and work with the player to help him build a well-rounded character that fits the player's concept and gets the most out of the rules while doing it. Everyone wins, fun all around.

Also, this drifted a bit from the OP so my basic rules of thumb for character creation:

• Ask the GM about the campaign to figure out what will and will not work well with the group.
• Always have some sort of melee defense and ranged defense. This either means a good Dodge skill, or a good melee combat skill and Gymnastics for ranged defense. Riggers or drivers who want to risk being weaker themselves can rely on pumped Piloting skills to use evasive driving for ranged defense... that's a definite gamble.
• If you're relying on Gymnastics for ranged defense, pick up a synthacardium 3. Essence cost of 0.3 and 6bp worth of nuyen for +3 dice to the entire Athletics skill group is huge.
• Never skimp on Charisma or social skills... you want a bare minimum of 4 base dice for these tests. That means either Cha 5+ or 10bp into the Influence skill group (depending on how your GM operates... if they don't use social skills a lot, you can get away with just picking up Etiquette). Your character will suffer greatly in the long run if it can't string a sentence together without glitching... you can't just have the group's face handle all your conversations for you.
• Perception is one of the most important skills in the game. If you're making any sort of augmented character, you almost always want to get an attention coprocesser 3. It's ridiculously cheap in both essence and nuyen considering it gives you +3 dice to Perception tests.
• Everything else is situational, but remember the first bulletpoint. Knowing the GM and the group is the most important part of your character being effective, fitting in, and being as much fun for everyone else as it is for you.

[Triggvi]

That was well said. I think you summed things up nicely.

[oddboyout]

• Never skimp on Charisma or social skills... you want a bare minimum of 4 base dice for these tests. That means either Cha 5+ or 10bp into the Influence skill group (depending on how your GM operates... if they don't use social skills a lot, you can get away with just picking up Etiquette). Your character will suffer greatly in the long run if it can't string a sentence together without glitching... you can't just have the group's face handle all your conversations for you.

Not necessary for every PC, but as long as a few have decent influence skills it should be okay for one or two to have none. (Example: I'm currently playing an Uncouth (-1 to all social interactions) hacker and we have a really nosy, flamboyant Face that butts into everyone's interactions.)

[Triggvi]

• Never skimp on Charisma or social skills... you want a bare minimum of 4 base dice for these tests. That means either Cha 5+ or 10bp into the Influence skill group (depending on how your GM operates... if they don't use social skills a lot, you can get away with just picking up Etiquette). Your character will suffer greatly in the long run if it can't string a sentence together without glitching... you can't just have the group's face handle all your conversations for you.

Not necessary for every PC, but as long as a few have decent influence skills it should be okay for one or two to have none. (Example: I'm currently playing an Uncouth (-1 to all social interactions) hacker and we have a really nosy, flamboyant Face that butts into everyone's interactions.)

Every Character needs some social skills. They are used when you are interacting with contacts and others. There are special cases, but usually these special cases have no contacts or with loose them quickly through being exactly what was mentioned above uncouth.

[Glyph]

I find Uncouth and its sister flaws (Infirm, Uneducated) to be too crippling for my personal taste.  But I imagine the game designers thought Uncouth characters could be shadowrunners, or it would not be an option in the game.  Not to mention that three of the archetypes have it.  Looking at them, the bounty hunter and the enforcer are probably antisocial and prone to resorting to violence with little provocation, while the hacker is likelier to be an antisocial, slightly paranoid tech geek.  But they still have some basic contacts, and seem to be able to function in their roles (or at least it seems to be assumed that they do).