[Whiskeyjack]

personally I really don't agree with or even get the rage some people have if a player dares turn up with a 1 in a stat, let alone more than 1.  ...

I don't see the anger either, but I have a guess.  People get mad when they se  some guy collecting workman's comp, and staying at home when he is healthy, or millionaires that collect welfare.  The attitude is that "hey, I paid my dues, I work for a living, he should too."  Even though how the other guy lives does not effect them.  for some reason they see the 1's as someone trying to "get away" with something (which actually is the case when the article is titles minmax).

Instead of telling me to get off food-stamps, they fake interest in my well-being, and tell me I am going to die.

Wow, this is just utter nonsense. Like, I was thinking about responding to the actual factual fallacies in your build some more but after this? Nah

[Top Dog]

personally I really don't agree with or even get the rage some people have if a player dares turn up with a 1 in a stat, let alone more than 1.  ...

I don't see the anger either, but I have a guess.  People get mad when they se  some guy collecting workman's comp, and staying at home when he is healthy, or millionaires that collect welfare.  The attitude is that "hey, I paid my dues, I work for a living, he should too."  Even though how the other guy lives does not effect them.  for some reason they see the 1's as someone trying to "get away" with something (which actually is the case when the article is titles minmax).

Instead of telling me to get off food-stamps, they fake interest in my well-being, and tell me I am going to die.  How is an Improved Invisible guy with 12 sneak dice who fights with spirits going to die in Food Fight?

Here's my proof:
I have presented a face with (not counting specializations)
12 dice con
15 dice negotiation
8 dice in all other chr skills.

If I made the same guy with a 5 in Chr, 5 con, 5 negotiation, Foci in con and negotiation to bring them up to 12 and 15 dice, then went ahead and spent 3 on the other 6 Chr skills (18 total skill points), no one would make the statement "you are not a good face!"

Apparently to be a good face, you have to "spend" 3 in etiquette to show the DM and fellow players your dedication to your role!  Never mind that I can go from 8 dice to 10 dice with 2 karma, and your "dedicated" face will have to spend 18 karma for the same thing.

The only thing I want from etiquette is 2-3 successes to make it look like I am some kind of a biker.  I am not trying to blend with the Lannisters in my first 4-5 adventures.

The problem with having a 1 in a stat is that it's often simply ignored by the player. I agree with Aranador that having a one isn't a cardinal sin by itself, but your character is a prime example of why it's frowned upon. I think ProfGast gave a nice description in reply 25 - although with a logic of 1 he forgot "idiotic". Your character would be mocked mercilessly and would barely understand what the Johnson is trying to negotiate about, so it's irrelevant that people like him. But we all know you have no intention of playing him like the weak sickly unresponsive idiot that he is. You take the 1's for purely game-statistical purposes and expect them never to come up, You even say as much. And that is what people don't like about munchkins - you don't treat this as a character, as a person, but you treat it as a bunch of dice on a sheet.

I'm a minmaxer myself - although I'd disagree with Wikipedia's definition. I like playing effective characters, and I think it's sensible both out and in-character for you to want to be as good and effective as you can be, especially since your life depends on it. But you should do so in the context of building a character, in a context of the game world. Sure, you get stats that help you, and don't get the ones that you don't need as much at that high a level. But then you look back and see how that influences your character. Is this still someone that can function? You probably won't take disadvantages that cripple you, but you look at the ones you do get, and see how they can make your character more real and lifelike - can give it more character. Same with positive qualities, you look at how it fits in with your story.

You did none of that. If you did, you would have seen the glaring errors that people have already mentioned, the complete unworkability of the character as written.

And that doesn't even touch on the mechanical failures of your character, which others already commented on at large.

[TimTurry]

I disagree that a logic of 1 means you are an idiot that cannot understand.  A 1 is an acceptable stat which by itself should not make a character unplayable.  If it were otherwise, then a 2 would be the minimum. 

Some of the replies may have had a combative tone, but I still learned a bunch from the comments.  I actually took Focused Concentration because in my head the character would be walking around with a permanent Physical Mask which he changes from time to time.  From what I am reading, I need to be more combat ready.  I even read a comment implying that the character as written can't even go to the grocery store without getting mugged.  It certainly makes me feel better that I wasted 2 karma to start with the Whip.  I can't image the flames if ELF started with no weapons.  To be honest, I really wanted the starting Whip for flavor (handed down grandmother's ring that houses a Monofilament Whip) and to justify taking the 6 skill. 

OK, let's see if I can take the positive from the post, and modify the character.  I then put forth 3 changes to the character in the first post.

1) Change allergy from seafood to bees.  At least you can see them coming, and you won't have the DM rolling for a random bite of fish in every meal.

2) change the spell improved ability willpower to improved ability strength.

3) To make him more combat ready, his Focused Concentration will be storing a 6-hit Increase Reflexes.  He gets that using push the limit once a day until he makes the 6 hits.  On average that should take about 3 days.

Yes.  The limit 2 in physical is bad.  The first karma point ELF spends should go to fix that.  First point must go into reaction, and the second into strength.  That would bring the unmodified limit to 3.  As you know, ELF's specialty is in Spirits of Man.  These guys get to know one of your spells (per 3 focus), and can cast and sustain them for you all day at the low price of a service.   For everyday guard duty, that spell would be Increase Strength, which would constantly set ELF's physical limit to 4.  That plus the 9 Chr should make him a better than average face.  By the way, the spirit also casts it on himself, making him a better fighter.

Now for combat.  with the "permanent" boost of Increase Reflexes, ELF's average initiative is 20.  Chances are that is good enough to go first in non-surprise situations for the first few missions.  He also has 2 adept powers bumping his maxed Whip skill.  ELF is going first and killing the first guy within 24 meters of him (medium range on Heavy pistol is 20 meters). Against overwhelming odds, 24 meters should get him behind a corner/cover, and let his Spirit get some action.  He can Whip anyone who comes around the corner.  As for surprise, that is where you have the best adept power in the game: Combat sense (I get a perception roll to not be surprised). 

Speaking of Perception, is surprise-avoidance limited by physical limit?  I ask because for surprise checks, don't you do an opposed roll: His Sneak + His Agility [limit HIS Physical] vs My Intuition + My Perception.  I don't think my opposed roll gets the limit, but I am fuzzy on this.

Elf's defense dice are low at 4 (don't forget combat sense) .  And his armor is low until his first kill (but after that, his adept power gives him 3 more armor than his teammates).  So thanks to the advice here, I don't think he is "dead meat" as much as he was before.  I could have changed the adept power Improved Ability Negotiation to Mono Whip for an extra 3 dice, but I think 12 dice is plenty enough.

As far as being able to wear armor, I could not find armor weight in the book.  I do want this guy to be able to walk around without magical aid.

[ZeConster]

I disagree that a logic of 1 means you are an idiot that cannot understand.  A 1 is an acceptable stat which by itself should not make a character unplayable.  If it were otherwise, then a 2 would be the minimum.

I think you misunderstand the problem with an attribute rating of 1: it means your character will have a dice pool of 0 on anything they aren't trained in (so unless you use a point of Edge to Push the Limit (a long-shot), you'll auto-fail everything), including Knowledge skills. So yeah, someone with a Logic of 1 is an idiot that knows nothing about most things, and is utterly incapable of even the most basic tasks. If you want to have any indication of how much of an idiot your character is, try reading the 0-hits descriptions in Legwork for any Mission - that is your character about pretty much everything.

3) To make him more combat ready, his Focused Concentration will be storing a 6-hit Increase Reflexes.  He gets that using push the limit once a day until he makes the 6 hits.  On average that should take about 3 days.

You do realize even Focused Concentration and sustaining foci lose the spell when you lose consciousness (like when you go to sleep)? If you want a permanent spell, get Quickening.

[Top Dog]

I disagree that a logic of 1 means you are an idiot that cannot understand.  A 1 is an acceptable stat which by itself should not make a character unplayable.  If it were otherwise, then a 2 would be the minimum. 

3 is about average to above average. 2 is below average, 1 is far below average.

Can you have 1 Logic and still be playable? Sure. But your character would be quite stupid. You can play stupid characters fine - I don't like it, and my experience is that it tends to disrupt the game (because you'd be doing stupid things), but if you do it well, fine. As a face? Not so much. You're the, well, face of the party, and if you're doing the group's talking, the Johnson is going to assume you're all unintelligent. And you'd have a hard time understanding what he's saying.

The point isn't that you can't play a Logic 1 character, or even a Logic 1 Face. The point is that those things have consequences. You can't be a good face with Logic 1, unless you play it ignoring that fact, or do something else to offset it (maybe your group members tell you what to say and your babyface sells it? Could be interesting I guess).

<...>
OK, let's see if I can take the positive from the post, and modify the character.  I then put forth 3 changes to the character in the first post.

1) Change allergy from seafood to bees.  At least you can see them coming, and you won't have the DM rolling for a random bite of fish in every meal.

Wait, bees is common? That sounds cheap. I guess that's legal though, it's explicitly mentioned... but I don't get how bees are common and antibiotics are uncommon (or I've lead a weird and beefree life).

<...>

3) To make him more combat ready, his Focused Concentration will be storing a 6-hit Increase Reflexes.  He gets that using push the limit once a day until he makes the 6 hits.  On average that should take about 3 days.

Yes.  The limit 2 in physical is bad.  The first karma point ELF spends should go to fix that.  First point must go into reaction, and the second into strength.  That would bring the unmodified limit to 3.  As you know, ELF's specialty is in Spirits of Man.  These guys get to know one of your spells (per 3 focus), and can cast and sustain them for you all day at the low price of a service.   For everyday guard duty, that spell would be Increase Strength, which would constantly set ELF's physical limit to 4.  That plus the 9 Chr should make him a better than average face.  By the way, the spirit also casts it on himself, making him a better fighter.

I assume you mean the first 10 (and second 10) points go into reaction and strength. That's actually quite a while (3 runs if you get lucky with the karma).
To make the spirit increase your strength, and his own, and fight, you need 3 net hits on the summoning. You'll get 4.6 hits on average, he'll get 2 if you use a decent force, so 2 services. Or 3 if you summon it at low force, but then it won't be very good at boosting or fighting. And even if you do get 3 net hits, you can only make it fight once.
I guess one bonus is that you do have a high drain value, so resummoning isn't that big a deal.

Now for combat.  with the "permanent" boost of Increase Reflexes, ELF's average initiative is 20.  Chances are that is good enough to go first in non-surprise situations for the first few missions.  He also has 2 adept powers bumping his maxed Whip skill.  ELF is going first and killing the first guy within 24 meters of him (medium range on Heavy pistol is 20 meters). Against overwhelming odds, 24 meters should get him behind a corner/cover, and let his Spirit get some action.  He can Whip anyone who comes around the corner. 

Kill the first guy within 24m? Assuming that succeeds (whips aren't exactly guaranteed instakills, especially with 12 dice) you'd still be in the middle of the enemy group without dodge or soak dice. And 20 average initiative is decent, but not "guaranteed first" range by far.

As for surprise, that is where you have the best adept power in the game: Combat sense (I get a perception roll to not be surprised).

Speaking of Perception, is surprise-avoidance limited by physical limit?  I ask because for surprise checks, don't you do an opposed roll: His Sneak + His Agility [limit HIS Physical] vs My Intuition + My Perception.  I don't think my opposed roll gets the limit, but I am fuzzy on this.

You get a perception roll to add +3 to your surprise test. Which makes it 5 dice instead of 2. That's a big difference I guess, but unsurprisable it ain't.
Bonus for you though, attribute tests (surprise is Intuition+Reaction) have no limit. Perception is mental limit.

Elf's defense dice are low at 4 (don't forget combat sense) .  And his armor is low until his first kill (but after that, his adept power gives him 3 more armor than his teammates).  So thanks to the advice here, I don't think he is "dead meat" as much as he was before.  I could have changed the adept power Improved Ability Negotiation to Mono Whip for an extra 3 dice, but I think 12 dice is plenty enough.

As far as being able to wear armor, I could not find armor weight in the book.  I do want this guy to be able to walk around without magical aid.

4 means you're going to get hit pretty much all the time except against the lowliest of mooks.

I couldn't find armor weight either, but that hardly means it weighs nothing. And you can carry 10kg on average (20kg if you're lucky); I'm pretty sure any decent armor tops that.

[Whiskeyjack]

It's my experience that people with Physical stats at 1 can play that up fairly well because the rules support it: you're physically weak, you tremble when you hold a gun, your reflexes are shoddy.

It's also my experience that people with Mental stats at 1 pretty much refuse to play that truthfully. The Charisma 1 guy is boorish and unlikeable, or awkwardly antisocial, even if he's quite good-looking. The Logic 1 guy possibly didn't finish primary schooling, or is uninterested in learning about the world, and as a result his knowledge base is very limited and he may not understand concepts that most other people take for granted in understanding. The Intuition 1 guy has no common sense and little awareness of the world around him save that which is in his face. The Willpower 1 guy is a follower, easily influenced, easy to cave to others' demands and/or a coward.

But gamers are more OK playing a physically-weak or nervous-tic-having person than one who is stupid, senseless, boorish, or cowardly. That's when they take Log 1 but act like they have Log 4 or whatever, coming up with IC plans and the like. I don't want to tell people "you're playing your character wrong" but at the same time it does break a degree of immersion for a supposedly unschooled, not-smart character to think and act in the same way that his college-educated player does. Fact is, it's easier for the player to divorce himself physical-wise from the character than it is mental-wise.

In other words, if you look at a character sheet where the character has Cha 1, Log 1, Int 1, etc and look at the rules for that, you begin to form a picture of a character's personality, where the physical attributes may make you think of his physical appearance. And from what I've the physical attributes of a character often influence how both the player and other players view the character physically, and the player will play that up, but the player will not often play up the real disadvantages of below-average mental stats.

[Tenlaar]

I think, were I GMing and decided to allow a character with such horrid stats, I would require a character with LOG 1 (and especially combined with INT 1) to take the Uneducated quality.

You do realize even Focused Concentration and sustaining foci lose the spell when you lose consciousness (like when you go to sleep)? If you want a permanent spell, get Quickening.

Source?  Focused Concentration makes sense because it's just a mental focus that allows you to bypass the sustaining penalty, but I just looked through all 115 uses of the word sustain in the 5E book and nowhere is it stated that sustaining foci require consciousness.  It's not YOU sustaining the spell, why would a focus care if you're awake or not?

[TimTurry]

Common theme on replies, so I will lump my response:

I agree that a 1 means dysfunctional in any skill that ELF is not trained in.  But you've got a poster arguing that a 1 in logic means that something ELF is very trained in is also useless.  That frankly is pulling rules out of your ___.  The guys has 18 dice in negotiation; this is a specialty, and not untrained.  1 in Logic is irrelevant per rules.  Furthermore I agree that 3 is average, 2 is below that; 1 is the least stat a shadowrunner can have in an attribute and still be functional.  If it were otherwise, a score of 1 would not be allowed.   Also I don't see anything in the rules that says a stat of 1 makes one so stupid, it is "disruptive to the party."   "Uneducated?"  I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

You can't just say a Logic 1 character can't reload his gun because you as a DM would not allow it.  We would have no common ground on which to debate if you make up stuff "because it seems reasonable to you."  What if I disagree on what 1 means?  I do blame SR5 here for not even describing what the stats 1-6 look like on a character.  Logic 6 -> Wazniak?   Logic 1-> drooling idiot?  Murdock from the A team? Termor brothers?

I also do not find where you lose your Focused concentration when you sleep.  Please give reference.  There is a huge difference between sleep and unconscious.

It has been stated that armor weighs more than 10 kg, even if you don't know what weights, or which armor is lighter than which.  Houserule armor to not have a specific weight, but be just heavy enough that str 1 cannot wear it, but str 2 can wear it, carry an M16, and 100 ammo.  Sounds good?  Why?   Note that this character carries no weapons or ammo. 

Rules question: ELF's perception skill is 6 and intuitions is 1.  I am sorry that I do not follow the +3 or how you got 5 dice.

[Tenlaar]

Focused Concentration is not like turning your brain into a sustaining focus.  You are still actively sustaining the spell yourself.  How do you sustain a spell yourself while sleeping?

[ZeConster]

You do realize even Focused Concentration and sustaining foci lose the spell when you lose consciousness (like when you go to sleep)? If you want a permanent spell, get Quickening.

Source?  Focused Concentration makes sense because it's just a mental focus that allows you to bypass the sustaining penalty, but I just looked through all 115 uses of the word sustain in the 5E book and nowhere is it stated that sustaining foci require consciousness.  It's not YOU sustaining the spell, why would a focus care if you're awake or not?

I'll answer this in a bit, but first I have to respond to this:

I also do not find where you lose your Focused concentration when you sleep.  Please give reference.  There is a huge difference between sleep and unconscious.

Seriously? You're claiming that being asleep differs enough from regular unconsciousness that your character can still concentrate enough to sustain a spell and keep their foci active? This isn't D&D - there's no "trance instead of sleep" option.

That being said: Tenlaar, here's what the rules say about foci and unconsciousness:

if you lose consciousness your foci deactivate.

And TimTurry, here's someone's explanation about why sleeping and sustaining things aren't compatible:

a condition of body and mind which typically recurs for several hours every night, in which the nervous system is inactive, the eyes closed, the postural muscles relaxed, and consciousness practically suspended.

Source: http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/sleep

1.the action or power of focusing all one’s attention
2. dealing with one particular thing above all others

Source: http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/concentration?q=concentration

Consult other dictionaries as needed. Sleep is pretty much the exact opposite of concentration. It is a state of relaxation and inactivity, whereas concentration is a state of heightened activity focused on a specific thing. Frankly, the question answers itself... .

If that isn't enough:

Duration: This describes how long the spell’s effect lasts. Instantaneous (I) spells have an effect that happens and then fades, while Sustained (S) spells last as long as you keep them going.
(P. 283 Core)

To keep something going is an active process. Given the above definition of sleep as a state of inactivity and suspension, it seems pretty clear that you cannot sustain a spell while sleeping.

[Whiskeyjack]

Common theme on replies, so I will lump my response:

I agree that a 1 means dysfunctional in any skill that ELF is not trained in.  But you've got a poster arguing that a 1 in logic means that something ELF is very trained in is also useless.  That frankly is pulling rules out of your ___.

Well your Mental Limit is 3 ([(Log 1 x2) + Int 1 + Will 5]/3), rounded up (p. 48, correct me if I'm wrong that this should be rounded down instead). That's a Limit of 3 to Knowledge Skills and Perception. With 2 Edge and a dice pool designed to be pre-Edged, you're still not going to get many hits, and won't have much Edge to Break the Limit on some tests that could be quite important.

Fortunately, Assensing uses you Astral Limit, which is your greater of Mental or Social, so you can still do well with Assensing.

It's just worth mentioning that if you're going to rely on Improved Invisibility and a single Summoned spirit, you're dead the second someone/something resists your Improved Invisibility, or the second someone Astrally Perceives for you. One spirit per battle is a great asset, but without having access to more via Binding and lacking any form of ranged combat, you're really putting all your eggs in one basket and basically won't be able to dodge anything very well once you're discovered.

[ZeConster]

Fortunately, Assensing uses you Astral Limit, which is your greater of Mental or Social, so you can still do well with Assensing.

Except Astral Perception uses Assensing + Intuition, so while he'll have 12 dice for reading astral signatures, for the table on page 313 he'll only have 5 dice. So he can erase his tracks, but other than that, his Assensing is too low to really do anything with it.

[Whiskeyjack]

Fortunately, Assensing uses you Astral Limit, which is your greater of Mental or Social, so you can still do well with Assensing.

Except Astral Perception uses Assensing + Intuition, so while he'll have 12 dice for reading astral signatures, for the table on page 313 he'll only have 5 dice. So he can erase his tracks, but other than that, his Assensing is too low to really do anything with it.

Good point.

[Tenlaar]

That being said: Tenlaar, here's what the rules say about foci and unconsciousness:

if you lose consciousness your foci deactivate.

See, I've been interpreting their use of unconscious as using the definition of "not awake due to injury, drug, etc".  But I do see your point.

I would also point out, though, that resting and unconscious seem to be considered separate conditions by the wording of the recovery mechanics.  So you can recover stun damage and what not without deactivating your foci:

Make a Body + Willpower (1 hour) Extended Test. The character must rest for the entire hour for it to count (forced naps and unconsciousness also count). Each hit heals 1 box of Stun damage.

[ZeConster]

Well yeah, but you can rest while being conscious. In fact, I asked about this once, and Focused Concentration and sustaining foci might allow you to rest while still sustaining spells, since you could argue that since there's no penalty, there's not enough strain on your mind that you can't rest.