Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: TheCommanders on <08-25-11/0148:05>
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Ok, so I quite like the concept of an adept, and I think it could make for some interesting roleplaying opportunities, but the little power gamer in me is convinced that it's not worth it, as any augmented character could easily become superior. Here's my logic:
So for any adept worth his salt, you'll probably be wanting a 6 in magic, to get the maximum amount of power points possible, which costs 65 bp. If you plan on fully kiting an augmented character, you most likely want all the nuyen you can get at character creation, so you'll be wanting the born rich quality (10bp) along with a full 60 bp spent on equipment (for a total of 70 bp). Keeping in mind that the adept will have to buy equipment too, and I've never had a character spend less than 5 bp on gear, this will put them at least even on the bp front.
Now lets use the adept and augmented characters and see which could make the more powerful martial artist, as a comparison.
Now, consider what the adept can get:
-Improved Reflexes (2.5)
-Killing hands (0.5)
-Critical Strike (0.75)
-Increase Physical Attribute - AGI (1.5)
-Attribute Boost STR (0.75)
-Mystic Armor (0.5)
So their bonuses come out to:
-+2 REA
-+2 Initiative Passes
-Unarmed attack damage = (STR/2+3)P
-+2 AGI
-(Average Rolls on attribute boost) +3 STR
- +1/+1 armor
Ok, now the cyber character can easily get within his budget (cost of items here: 234,000):
-Wired Reflexes 2, Alpha
-Muscle Toner 2
-Muscle Augmentation 2
-Bone Density Augmentation 4
-Orthoskin 1
-Adrenalin Pump 2
And this puts their bonuses at-
-+2(+4 with AP) REA*
-+2 Initiative Passes
-Unarmed attack damage = (STR/2+3)P
-+2(+4 with AP) AGI
-+2(+4 with AP) STR
-+2 WIL with AP
- +1/+1 armor
*Not sure if that one stacks
So they are very close to matched. The problem is for the adept to improve, at all, he needs karma, at least 43 (35 for increasing an attribute to 7, 8 as cost for initiation, required to raise the magic attribute (and that's with the possible -40% cost for both group initiation and having performed an ordeal). So it's likely going to be between 4 and 8 missions (depending on how gm awards karma) before the adept can improve bugger all.
On the other hand, the augmented character has only used 4.95 essence (or 4.275 if they decide to get Type O system (30 bp positive quality) and drop the born rich, which would also give more bp at character creation), and all they need to improve is money. For example, for 15,000, an average earn from one or two early runs, they could improve both muscle toner and augmentation by 1. If they were planning to raise that all the way, they could not take the adrenalin boost (as it's superfluous at that point do to limitations on augmented attributes and uses a lot of essence) in favor of more orthoskin, or a more exotic implant. They get a LOT more options. Also, seeing as implants cost no karma, they can actually spend some increasing their skills, or other attributes.
To conclude, I see a lot of cool potential in adepts, they do have lots of good unique powers that could compliment a lot of character builds, but their problem as I see it is that the amount of power points you have to spend, along with all the limitations placed on magical characters and their advancement, means you'll either have to waste most of your points on implant equivalents, or be slightly underpowered in order to get the flavor powers you wanted. I hope someone can show me a better way around this, because I would really like to play an adept (maybe a pistol adept). :D
Cheers!
-TheCommanders
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I hope someone can show me a better way around this, because I would really like to play an adept (maybe a pistol adept). :D
a cybered Adept
get 1 or 2 Essencepoints of ' ware (f.E. Synaptic boosters Lvl 2 160 K ¥ for 1 Essencepoint you get +2 REA +2 IP ;)
or a Reflexrecorder for the Firearmsgroup , there are lots of combinations possible)
You don't neccesarily need a MAG of 6 ! 5(4 with Essenceloss) is totally OK for a Start.
Later You initiate and instead of a Metamagic ability get yourself a Power Point.
Or get one of the Ways (I'd advice the Way of the Warrior) You might save up to one Powerpoint for the 10 BP
with a Min/Maxed Dance
Medicineman
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some more things.
-You can't upgrade Bioware the way you said. You need to buy a new better version.
-Adepts don't trigger Cyberware Scanners. These things are everywhere!
-Adepts with Masking won't be deemed a threat by magical security, while cyber- and bioware will be identified
-adrenalin pump is the worst you can buy. better get trauma damper or higher Ortoskin
-Adepts can melee spirits with ease. No immunity
-Increase Physical Attribute power is the worst idea ever. just get some bioware as Medicineman said
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Thanks for the input, couple of quick questions.
I hadn't heard that you could choose to add a power point for the initiation benefit instead of a metamagic power, which book is that listed in?
What are the benefits of taking a way? I found them listed in street magic, but all they give is a description of the concept, no gameplay rules or benefits.
(on reflection the next two aren't really questions :P)
The only problem with buying something like the synaptic boosters is that item alone would facilitate 32 bp being allocated towards equipment, and even with the 25 you would save from having a 5 magic, that still thins out the bp you would have to spend on attributes and abilities, not to mention that you would need to have at least a few more bp put in for the rest of your equipment. Also that whole thing only frees up 0.5 power points essentially, as it does away with a 2.5 ability, but also takes away 2 power points by reducing magic, and combined with the cost of the equipment, that's gonna be a big hit to your character development overall. What might be more feasible is to spend 30,000 nuyen (only 6 bp) on muscle toner and augmentation (total of 0.8 essence), which could allow you to do away with increased attribute and attribute boost, freeing up 0.25 power points, but allowing for more bp to be spent elsewhere.
As a slightly less important note, part of the appeal of the adept to me was the fact that they are augmented only by the power of the magic within them, so buying implants would soil the character concept a bit, which was the main reason I wanted to play an adept.
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some more things.
-You can't upgrade Bioware the way you said. You need to buy a new better version.
Really? I was under the impression that for example a character with muscle toner at rating 2 could later go to a body shop and have them improve it to rating 3. Does this sort of thing only work with cyberware (or not at all)?
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I hadn't heard that you could choose to add a power point for the initiation benefit instead of a metamagic power, which book is that listed in?
Street Magic.
What are the benefits of taking a way? I found them listed in street magic, but all they give is a description of the concept, no gameplay rules or benefits.
There is a downloadable e-book on adepts that give adepts a little upgrade (I think it is a cool optional rule).
Basically Adepts on a way can chose a few powers ascociated with their chosen way and buy those at a discount.
As a slightly less important note, part of the appeal of the adept to me was the fact that they are augmented only by the power of the magic within them, so buying implants would soil the character concept a bit, which was the main reason I wanted to play an adept.
Agreed - that is also my view on adepts but you will become more powerfull with bioware.
The initiative boosting bioware costs 1,5 essence at rank 3 and to get the same for power points would cost you 5. So the trade off is well worth it from a munchkin perspective but I don't think I would do it anyway :-\
Regards
Rasmus
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some more things.
-You can't upgrade Bioware the way you said. You need to buy a new better version.
Really? I was under the impression that for example a character with muscle toner at rating 2 could later go to a body shop and have them improve it to rating 3. Does this sort of thing only work with cyberware (or not at all)?
maybe it's just our table. Cyber should be upgradeable, because it's machanical. Just screw in some stronger servos and get a firmwareupgrade. But Bioware is always a ready-to-implant grown organ. There's nothing in the books, so common sense told us you can't just "grow it better" within the body.
A side note on the whole adepts wanna stay pure and not spoil there magic thing:
-you're a fuckin' criminal living and working in the darkest times and dirtiest business. You wanna do EVERYTHING to survive!
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I hadn't heard that you could choose to add a power point for the initiation benefit instead of a metamagic power, which book is that listed in?
Street Magic.
I couldn't find it :-[
I did a word search of a pdf version for "power point" and none of the matches were that one. Also, obviously, I read the section on initiation.
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Imo if you want your adept to be powerful you should cut back on gear and contact costs during character creation and develop your skills and attributes to a high level. This way you can spend the majority of your Karma during the game on initiation and boost your magic attribute quite high. There are many powerful options at your disposal depending on what type of character you want to play. Over time it will become harder for a samurai to improve due to essence restrictions but as an adept you can continue to gain and enhance powers. In the long run you should turn into quite a monster. I suppose the samurai can instead focus on raising skills and attributes but the adept can choose to do the same.
Adepts can also use a weapon focus which is quite powerful. Not having to worry about cyberware scanners is quite good as well. In Street Magic there are some really nice powers for a low cost and in Way of the Adept you can greatly improve your cost efficiency by taking one of the new qualities which reduce power costs. I am playing a combat adept and saved about 2 points of magic by doing so.
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I haven't my book at hand round now but if i recall corectly it is stated in the beginning of the section on initiation.
Regards
Rasmus
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Initiation to raise Magic isn't an OR thing. SR41 p198:
A character's maximum magic attribute = 6 + Initiation level. *
AND
Each time a character gets an initiation level, it can choose a metamagic type.
(* Minus essence loss from 'ware.)
Initiating doesn't automatically get you an extra point of magic though, you still have to buy it seperately.
Also, don't start with 6 magic, it's a waste of BP's. Get more edge or skills or stuff instead.
First karma should probably go to raising it to 6 (30 karma).
Then initiate for 13 karma (hopefully at a discount from having magical friends/ordeal).
Maybe the other way around, as mentioned above, Masking can be very useful to seem completely harmless to security.
Appearing as a mundane (or very low magic) and not having any offensive 'ware or weapons will get you past security, while Mr. Street Sam can leave his arms, legs and nervous system at the door.
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You are actually pretty much correct - adepts are not very good, and pure adepts (meaning not mystic adepts and not cybered) are quite bad, second only to the "mundane with no ware" concept in "sounds cool but not supported." What adepts are good at is "enhancing" something else - albeit, expensively. The idea is that adepts get bonuses that stack with everything else, so you can use them to be better at that thing than any other person. Adepts also have a few powers that give you non-replicable abilities that are really useful. This being Shadowrun, though, they also have piles and piles and PILES of terrible, useless powers, powers that are ridiculously overpriced, powers that are over-balanced so they don't do anything helpful, etc.
As an example, Kinesics. Kinesics lets you get +3 to your social skills. But a cybered character could just take Tailored Pheremones for +3, right? However, you can be an adept, get Tailored Pheremones too, and get +6. If you want to be really hardcore, you can even take Improved Ability for some social skills. The idea is always going to be to get the "key" ware that does stuff adepts suck at getting - like ability score increases - and stack adept powers with 'ware that does similar things. this also lowers your magic, which makes it easier to get more magic later because it's cheaper.
Take a look at the Archetypes (link in my sig) and specifically the Transhuman Mystic (a mystic adept) and the Negotiator (a cybered adept) for some examples of what I mean. I have a few more adepts in the pipeline.
I tried and failed, repeatedly, to make an adept who would never want 'ware for reasons other than RP, having Sensitive System, or being a sapient critter or some other type of character who cannot take ware. If you want to be a pure adept who doesn't have and never gets 'ware because you think it's cool, go for it, but it is from an optimization standpoint bad.
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Initiation to raise Magic isn't an OR thing. SR41 p198:
A character's maximum magic attribute = 6 + Initiation level.
Initiating doesn't automatically get you an extra point of magic though, you still have to buy it seperately.
Also, don't start with 6 magic, it's a waste of BP's. Get more edge or skills or stuff instead.
Yes, I'm aware, as you can tell here:
So they are very close to matched. The problem is for the adept to improve, at all, he needs karma, at least 43 (35 for increasing an attribute (magic) to 7, 8 as cost for initiation, required to raise the magic attribute (and that's with the possible -40% cost for both group initiation and having performed an ordeal). So it's likely going to be between 4 and 8 missions (depending on how gm awards karma) before the adept can improve bugger all.
my question was regarding:
Later You initiate and instead of a Metamagic ability get yourself a Power Point.
I wasn't aware that taking a power point instead of a metamagic ability was an option, or if it even was, so I was asking where this was listed.
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Check the Street Magic errata.
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OMG... I missed that.
(Chrona, if you're reading this, you allow that tweak in your game?)
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What are the benefits of taking a way? I found them listed in street magic, but all they give is a description of the concept, no gameplay rules or benefits.
Which was a big reason I wanted to write The Way of the Adept -- http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=91004 (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=91004) -- because that had been the case with Ways for multiple editions now, and I always thought it sucked.
In SR3, in fact, Ways were spelled out in Magic in the Shadows, and then it said "Ohbtw, if you don't pick a Way, your GM might make your powers cost 25% more. LOL, have fun kids," which was just totally back-asswards to me. New material shouldn't exist solely for the purpose of mechanically penalizing and punishing players for buying a book, IMO, and that's all Ways did for quite a while.
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Long story short, as already mention, straight Adepts are not at the top tier of power in Shadowrun. They're nowhere near really and as and when they come out with Shadowrun 5, they might want to solve that. Applying Ways for free might help. But we're getting into house rule territory here.
However, they're not useless. They can kick a fair amount of arse and while there's almost always a better way of doing it with cyber, its only a few dice as a rule. I don't know what your table is like, but unless they all believe in bringing the A game all the time, you probably won't feel out of place. The only real downside is the nagging voice in the back of your head saying 'I could have had more'. I'd say ignore that voice, but I know I struggle to.
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Check the Street Magic errata.
Aha! There it is! Glad to know I wasn't just missing it, cause I was pretty sure I had read most of street magic.
For anyone who is curious, the actual "rule" is this:
“Adep. Initiation. Group. may consider allowing adepts to gain
1 Power Point instead of a Metamagic at Initiation.”
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As others have said, the pure magic adept will come out sub part to the augmented character almost every time. That isn't to say they are not playable, but they are sub-optimal.
The most mechanically effective adepts are ones what start with a high magic but loose a point or two of essence to bioware. Raising your agility and strength through bioware is vastly more efficient than paying for it through adept powers.
Adepts tend to be hyper specialists. Pick one thing and get incredibly good at it. Unarmed combat is a good example. A adept with a bit of bioware can be throwing high teen dice pools for unarmed, hitting for both killing and electrical damage when they wish to, and can do things like punch spirits in the face to good effect. Blade adepts have the advantage of using weapon focuses. When you build an adept go all in. If you are a pistol adept, you want to soft cap your agility, get a restricted gear quality, buy muscle tone 4, buy pistols 6, use an adept power to increase your skill to pistols (9), throw in a specialization, and then get really, really good guns. With a smartgun link on some goggles thats 9+9+2+2=22 dice with your specialized pistols at char gen. Bang freaking bang.
I will admit, you may not have alot else to do when you can't play gunslinger. But thats the nature of adepts. Hyper specialize.
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To put a different spin on that though...
Drop the pistol skill improvement, take kinesics; softcap cha (this build is naturally biased towards elves). Social group to 4. Outside of combat, you now have 12 dice which you can have fun with (14 if you went as an elf), and your pistol skill is 'only' 19 dice. 20 if you went elf. I don't you neccesarily need to hyperspecialise. And you've only spent 80 points of attributes (a fair whack admittedly), 66 points on skills, about 7bp on gear (I think), 10 for the qualities, plus however much magic you've taken. Which is not a trifling investment, but doable. There are problems with it (for a front line fighter, its going to be squishy) but it works. Sort of.
Plus, in background count areas, you simply drop the part of your Adept powers not relevant to the moment.
Of course, it gets even more difficult if you do it all with Adept powers.
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The extent to which adepts "must" hyperspecialize is the same as the extent to which any build needs those same crazy-high dice pools; it all comes down to the table you're running the character at. In lots of games, a 14-16 in Pistols is plenty, in others it might take that 20+ to run "par" with other characters. In some games, that base of 12 social dice is more than enough, in others it means the Pornomancer is still flinging four times as many as you are, so you're about a third-stringer.
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To put a different spin on that though...
Drop the pistol skill improvement, take kinesics; softcap cha (this build is naturally biased towards elves). Social group to 4. Outside of combat, you now have 12 dice which you can have fun with (14 if you went as an elf), and your pistol skill is 'only' 19 dice. 20 if you went elf. I don't you neccesarily need to hyperspecialise. And you've only spent 80 points of attributes (a fair whack admittedly), 66 points on skills, about 7bp on gear (I think), 10 for the qualities, plus however much magic you've taken. Which is not a trifling investment, but doable. There are problems with it (for a front line fighter, its going to be squishy) but it works. Sort of.
Plus, in background count areas, you simply drop the part of your Adept powers not relevant to the moment.
Of course, it gets even more difficult if you do it all with Adept powers.
Something like this would be a great character for a Denver "city of spies" campaign where subtle force, legwork, and lots of security checks are common.
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Something like this would be a great character for a Denver "city of spies" campaign where subtle force, legwork, and lots of security checks are common.
Very much so, which is how Shadowrun should be for me! Been toying with how to work such a character for ages. Never seem to be able to fit everything I want into 435bp though...
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Very much so, which is how Shadowrun should be for me! Been toying with how to work such a character for ages. Never seem to be able to fit everything I want into 435bp though...
While not an adept, you can look at one of Umaro's archetype character the Negotiator (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WSle2w2WJgINGDDRBm-Z35rd0K_Uaoqlb2ux5nkzdvc/edit?hl=en_US) for ideas / a solid base the character. You might also want to look at the the Spook (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1846Tf_e6Fwbgy8U8R_YKHCJl0Z-NzahFsY0ty397UgI/edit?hl=en_US) as well even though he's a mundane.
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Something like this would be a great character for a Denver "city of spies" campaign where subtle force, legwork, and lots of security checks are common.
An Elven adept that's good with a pistol, fast-talking, and all-around handy in a spy game? Crazy!
*whistles innocently*
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^ Yup, never been done before. I hear it's impossible...
Should anyone ever succeed, it would be really, really original and such characters should be rewarded with quadruple karma.
*joins in on the tune*
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Hey, I'm not knockin' it. Just saying it's (obviously) a favorite of mine.
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It's only a cliché if it's a "night elf" in latex.
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^ Yup, never been done before. I hear it's impossible...
Should anyone ever succeed, it would be really, really original and such characters should be rewarded with quadruple karma.
No.
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Check the Street Magic errata.
Aha! There it is! Glad to know I wasn't just missing it, cause I was pretty sure I had read most of street magic.
For anyone who is curious, the actual "rule" is this:
“Adept. Initiation. Group. may consider allowing adepts to gain
1 Power Point instead of a Metamagic at Initiation.”
Does that mean that an adept when he initiates and chose a power point also can get one from bying his magic to 7?
Regards
Rasmus
PS: You can play a pornomancer? Why haven't nobody told me that before? It sounds like a lot of more fun than being a standard runner that tends just to be shot at...
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When an adept initiates normally two things happen, his potential magic score increases by one, and you get to choose a metamagic. You still have to spend the karma to raise your magic score to get the power point.
There is an optional rule that says instead of a metamagic you can have an extra power point. Consult your GM about the this, but if allowed you can get potentially two power points per initiation that way, one from the initiation, one from spending the karma to increase your magic stat.
BTW, the somewhat striking term "pornomancer" refers to a character build, usually an elf, with stupid high social skill dice pools. Usually in the 20s. I think the term arises from the fact that with that many dice in con you ever really have to put your pants back on if you don't want to.
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While idly browsing the net, I'm pretty sure I've found Pornomancer builds with 50 odd dice. As starting characters too I think.
Oh, and I never said the spy idea was original - although having little grounding in the history/metastory of the game, I have bugger all idea what Critias is on about. In my case, the initial idea came from reading too much John le Carre. The elf just makes sense for better attributes.
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Hmm...
Elf, Charisma 8 + Exc Attribute Charisma 1 + Genetic Optimization Charisma 1 + Con (Specialization) 6 (8 ) + Aptitude (Con) 1 + Kinesics 3 + Improved Ability 3 (Con) 3 + Tailored Pheromones 3 + First Impression 2 = Con Dice Pool of 30 at the cost of 4 Magic and 1 Essence (Magic's reduced to 3by Essence Loss).
30 BP + 65 BP + 20 BP + 9 BP (45,000¥/0.2 Essence) + 26 BP + 10 BP + 30 BP (1.5 Magic + .75 Magic) + 9 BP (45,000¥/0.6 Essence) + 5 BP = 205 BP/2.25 magic used of 3 Magic Attribute/5.8 Essence
Can get it pretty high, but I don't see how you can get it up to 50.
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Just for giggles, lets see what we can get. Whats the maximum dice pool for a pornomancer to pick someone up in a bar? I am going to be cynical and assume this is a Con check.
Elf with hardcap charisma with SURGE charisma (9), adept with kinestetics (3), con 6, with Adept Improved ability to bring that to (9),Specialization (pick up slitches in beer joint +2) bioware Tailored Pheromones (3), running Emotion Software (6) through comlink and glasses, first impression quality (2) =34 dice.
I am sure there is some more you can pile on. That was off the top of my head without looking at the rules.
The life of a pornomancer is never dull.
Edit: ninja'ed by Fastjack.
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Huh... forgot SURGE and EmoSofts. With those, add another 7 to mine for 37 dice.
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Actually, the Metagenetic Qualities would top my PC over the 35BP max for Qualities. So, they wouldn't count for a starting character. Now, buying the Metagenitic Improvement (Charisma) and Glamour qualities with Karma later on, would give an extra 4 dice on top of the 36 from Character generation.
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Huh... forgot SURGE and EmoSofts. With those, add another 7 to mine for 37 dice.
Wow. with 37 dice you can buy 9 hits. I won't add any narrative details to what that would mean, but good lord, it would be quite a life.
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Huh... forgot SURGE and EmoSofts. With those, add another 7 to mine for 37 dice.
Minor Bio-Sculpting adds +1 Die
Patron Dragon adds +2 Die
thats 40 Dice
Hough !
Medicineman
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Huh... forgot SURGE and EmoSofts. With those, add another 7 to mine for 37 dice.
Wow. with 37 dice you can buy 9 hits. I won't add any narrative details to what that would mean, but good lord, it would be quite a life.
Just call him Bueller, Ferris Bueller.
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Elf Technomancer (8) with exc attrib cha (1) and emotisoft complex form 6 that's threaded to 12 and assisted by a rating 6 sprite gets (18), add the r6 emotitoy that's being diagnosed by a machine sprite for another (9), con (6).
8+1+18+9+6 is 42, and I'd have to crack a book to go past that.
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Wow.... just wow.....
Isn't 4 supposed to be hard? Anything beyond that is just added fluff to most skill checks? o.O with about 9 automatically I think he could make almost anyone fall in love with him.
A Great Dragon shows up.
>.> no he doesn't have to kill him, after all he's a lover not a fighter. (rolls 40 dice against seducing dragon)
I would probably "Die" if i saw that in a game. No Pun intended.
Oh and you guys have forgotten on critical thing.... he could have 6 or 7 edge on top of that. <.<
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All of this is the type of thing that has to be kept in line by a good GM. Con isn't mind control. There are times when it doesn't work, no matter what you role. Some of those dice are also situational, like First Impression and a specialization, and you need a GM will let you use Emotisofts. But even under the worse conditions you should be able to get a pool in the high twenties, which by any standard other than pornomancer numbers is just crazy stupid high.
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In fairness it's the sort of thing that makes people think of dice caps. I think caps are a mencken solution (simple, obvious, and wrong) but it doesn't stop the underlying reason people think of them.
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Use a Dryad instead of a Elf; another few dice for glamour. Throw in Home Ground. There's a Mentor Spirit that helps here too. I might be wrong about the starting character and 50, but the ensuing search shows the power of Porno Elf.
Feck it, I'm gonna go look it up.
edit: Found it, apparently originally posted on dumpshock
Dryad with 8 Charisma and 6 Magic. Relevant Qualities: Adept, Addiction: eX, Mild, Fame (Global), First Impression. Get Con at 6 and specialize in Seduction. For adept powers, get Kinesics: 5 and Improved Ability/Con: 3. For bioware, get Tailored Pheromes: 3, Enhanced Pherome Receptors: 3, Vocal Range Enhancer, and minor Biosculpting.
That's 8 (Charisma) + 6 (Con) + 2 (specialization) +3 (Glamour) +6 (Global Fame) +2 (First Impression) +5 (Kinesics) + 3 (Improved Ability) +3 (Tailored Pheromes) +2 (Enhanced Pherome Receptors) +1 (Vocal Range Enhancer) +2 (Minor Biosculpting) +6 (Empathy Software) +1 (symbiosis gives bonus to social skills vs. inhabitants of her neighborhood) +1 (effects of eX) = 51 dice. :eek:
... yeah.
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Use a Dryad instead of a Elf; another few dice for glamour. Throw in Home Ground. There's a Mentor Spirit that helps here too. I might be wrong about the starting character and 50, but the ensuing search shows the power of Porno Elf.
Feck it, I'm gonna go look it up.
edit: Found it, apparently originally posted on dumpshock
Dryad with 8 Charisma and 6 Magic. Relevant Qualities: Adept, Addiction: eX, Mild, Fame (Global), First Impression. Get Con at 6 and specialize in Seduction. For adept powers, get Kinesics: 5 and Improved Ability/Con: 3. For bioware, get Tailored Pheromes: 3, Enhanced Pherome Receptors: 3, Vocal Range Enhancer, and minor Biosculpting.
That's 8 (Charisma) + 6 (Con) + 2 (specialization) +3 (Glamour) +6 (Global Fame) +2 (First Impression) +5 (Kinesics) + 3 (Improved Ability) +3 (Tailored Pheromes) +2 (Enhanced Pherome Receptors) +1 (Vocal Range Enhancer) +2 (Minor Biosculpting) +6 (Empathy Software) +1 (symbiosis gives bonus to social skills vs. inhabitants of her neighborhood) +1 (effects of eX) = 51 dice. :eek:
... yeah.
If I was wearing a hat I would take it off to you, sir. 50 freaking dice. I do think being a global celebrity is, at least in spirit, cheating a bit, but I am impressed.
Edit: is Kinesics 5 kosher? I had in my head it maxed at 3, but I could be wrong.
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get Kinesics: 5
Kinesics maxes at 3
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Well if the character spent all that time to do that. I'd let the character get away with it perhaps. But he had party members to deal with he may be able to con one person or a group but it's not going to affect the organization and if people keep falling for "his or her charms' that's when you start sending in things without emotion. Robots, drones, Spirits. :D (not sure about spirits but hey!)
:P There's always around something and as the DM your right, you got to make it challenging, they can't just con their way out of everything, but to make it fair they should be able to do it fairly often. They'd be a pro con artist that's for sure. xD
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get Kinesics: 5
Kinesics maxes at 3
ok, so we are at 49 dice. Not 50 dice but still the current blue ribbon winner. That lets you buy 12 hits before edge, buy the way. Probably enough.
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Not my build I stress. But yes, I think 49 dice would suffice for whatever purposes the person would have in mind.
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Not my build I stress. But yes, I think 49 dice would suffice for whatever purposes the person would have in mind.
Isn't it 4 more successes the DM should let you add in the flair of what happens? :D
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Yeesh...
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You are actually pretty much correct - adepts are not very good, and pure adepts (meaning not mystic adepts and not cybered) are quite bad, second only to the "mundane with no ware" concept in "sounds cool but not supported." What adepts are good at is "enhancing" something else - albeit, expensively. The idea is that adepts get bonuses that stack with everything else, so you can use them to be better at that thing than any other person. Adepts also have a few powers that give you non-replicable abilities that are really useful. This being Shadowrun, though, they also have piles and piles and PILES of terrible, useless powers, powers that are ridiculously overpriced, powers that are over-balanced so they don't do anything helpful, etc.
As an example, Kinesics. Kinesics lets you get +3 to your social skills. But a cybered character could just take Tailored Pheremones for +3, right? However, you can be an adept, get Tailored Pheremones too, and get +6. If you want to be really hardcore, you can even take Improved Ability for some social skills. The idea is always going to be to get the "key" ware that does stuff adepts suck at getting - like ability score increases - and stack adept powers with 'ware that does similar things. this also lowers your magic, which makes it easier to get more magic later because it's cheaper.
Take a look at the Archetypes (link in my sig) and specifically the Transhuman Mystic (a mystic adept) and the Negotiator (a cybered adept) for some examples of what I mean. I have a few more adepts in the pipeline.
I tried and failed, repeatedly, to make an adept who would never want 'ware for reasons other than RP, having Sensitive System, or being a sapient critter or some other type of character who cannot take ware. If you want to be a pure adept who doesn't have and never gets 'ware because you think it's cool, go for it, but it is from an optimization standpoint bad.
Well, I really don't agree with you on this one. I will try to explain, why I think the opposite of what you say is actually true.
IMO, a pure adept is the only way how to play an adept character. First of all, to play a pure adept is not only fun, but such character has a lot of usefulness for the group. He can have the best (by far) perception, assenssing rolls, he can support magicians, he is not dependent on equipment, nor restricted by it. Any ware upgrades are a waste of essence and are in fact crippling you. I saw a lot of topics in this forum where people calculate the number of dice on rolls. Like 20+ etc. The fact is, that adepts cant compete with ware street samurai in this, but these numbers are not so important. The only ware that looks useful for an adept is bone lancing/density, but even the 1 point of essence is too big of a problem to make it worth. So, why boost agility, why boost strength? I really don't see and reason at all. Of course, if you only want to play a few runs, build a ware freak, you can kill anything your boss points at, much more easily (=.
If you play in a normal setting and your GM abides the connection between karma and credit rewards, as the time flows and characters will get more experienced, the adepts will begin the shine. Adepts can be great in all aspects of the game, even in combat and during the time, you will carefully save your credits to buy few sweet pieces of alfaware, your adept mate will start to kick ass and will have a ton of opportunities in role playing.
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If you want to play a pure adept for "ROLE-playing not ROLL-playing" reasons, go for it.
I was about to argue with you, but at the end of that you DID suggest that the adept would end up buying some alphaware so.... what is your point? I thought you were talking about pure (ie, no ware) adepts? If what you're saying is that STARTING with no 'ware and then getting it later on is sensible, then yes, that is a reasonable choice if you want to make a "power now for power later" trade.
If you are claiming that not starting with 'ware and never getting it is mechanically a good idea (and yes, I do understand that someone might want to do that because they are a ROLE-player not a ROLL-player hurr), show me an adept who doesn't have Sensitive System, and isn't a sapient critter/infected/shifter/some other type of character that just can't take 'ware normally.
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A 500 point build adept (yes he has sensitive systems but the 15 point could be found in other negative qualities):
Bod 8 (9) (40 bp)
Agi 5 (40 bp)
Rea 3 (20 bp)
Str 7 (40 bp)
Cha 1 (0 bp)
Int 4 (30 bp)
Log 2 (10 bp)
Wil 5 (40 bp)
INI 10
Edge 2 (10 bp)
Magic 6 (65 bp)
Ogre (20)
Adept (5)
Way of the warrior (10)
Pos: Toughness (10), Perceptive (10), Restricted gear, weapon foci (5)
Neg: Sensitive system (15), SINner (10), Big regrets (5), In Depbt (7500) (5)
Powers (* marks the ones with a discount from Way of the Adept).
*Improved reflexes level 3 2 (Geas, must do MA form before going to bed)
*Improved Ability (Swords) 0,375/l (x3)
*Mystic Armor 0,375/l (x3)
Enhanced Perception 0,25/1 (x2)
Attribute boost, strength 0,25/l
Sustenance 0,25
Counterstrike 0,5
Linguistics 0,25
Athletics 1 (10 bp)
Electronics 1 (10bp)
Blades 6 +2 (26 bp)
Pistols 4 (16 bp)
Unarmed 1 (4 bp)
Dodge 4 (16 bp)
Infiltration 4 (16 bp)
Shadowing 2 (8 bp)
Perception 4 (6) (16 bp)
Tracking 4 (16bp)
Street Knowledge 2 (8bp)
Survival 2 (8bp)
Sec. procedures 2
Seattle street gangs 2
Sec companies 1
Football 1
English (native)
Or’zet 2
Japaneese 1
Contacts: Fixer 3/2 (3 + fra cha)
Katana – Weapon Focus Rank 4 (Bonding: 5 + 40.000)
Knife
Fichette security (mod: int. smartgun, Soundsurpressor, quickdraw holster, cameleon coating, personalized grip,+ Concealed holster)
3 clip reg. ammo (3*30 skud)
1 clip (1*30) capsule rounds (stun, +2 armor) narcoject (Sleep inducing- stun damage)
Form Fitting Body Armor (6/2 but only 3/1 encumbrance) + (Chemical Protection 6)
Armor Jacket (8/6) (Nonconductivity 6)
Overcoat (with ruthenium polymer coating, -4 perception to be spotted)
SecureTech PPP System all parts (2/6),
Total Armor 16/14 with mystic 19/17.
MetaLink with Vector Xim
Runs in Public Mode broadcasting fake SIN, not used for shadowrunning
Sony Emperor with Novatech Navi
Upgrade Response to 4
System 4, Response 4, Firewall 3, Signal 3
Optimization: Browse
Powersuite (Analyze 3, Browse 4, Command 2, Edit 4, Purge 4, Scan 2)
Encrypt 1
Bob the Agent, Pilot Rating 4
Runs in Hidden Mode, used for shadowrunning persona and running gear. Bob normally runs Analyze
to watch for any intrusion and will sound an alert if it finds anyone.
Earbuds rating 2
Audio Enhancement R3 (+3 perception audio)
Spatial Recognizer
Contact Lenses with Thermographic, Flare Compensation, Image Link, Smartlink, Magnification, Vision Enhancement R3 (+ 3 perception visual)
Common clothing,
Subvocal Microphone (for commlink),
Climbing gear
2*100 m microwire
Gas mask
Rappeling Gloves,
Restraints *2 (plasteel)
Trauma patch
Keycard Copier R6
Sequencer R4
Fake SIN R4
Rating 4 Fake License (Bounty hunter)
Rating 4 Fake License (Fichette sec)
Rating 4 Fake License (Katana)
Rating 4 Fake License (Carry Foci)
Docwagon contract 1 yr
Bus/rail pass 1 month
Low lifestyle 1 month
Season tickets (Football)
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If you want to play a pure adept for "ROLE-playing not ROLL-playing" reasons, go for it.
I was about to argue with you, but at the end of that you DID suggest that the adept would end up buying some alphaware so.... what is your point? I thought you were talking about pure (ie, no ware) adepts? If what you're saying is that STARTING with no 'ware and then getting it later on is sensible, then yes, that is a reasonable choice if you want to make a "power now for power later" trade.
If you are claiming that not starting with 'ware and never getting it is mechanically a good idea (and yes, I do understand that someone might want to do that because they are a ROLE-player not a ROLL-player hurr), show me an adept who doesn't have Sensitive System, and isn't a sapient critter/infected/shifter/some other type of character that just can't take 'ware normally.
Er, how the heck did you get this? :o Looks like my English is really bad :P. I said that while others(you) buy alfa/beta ware augments (after earning so much credit), the adept mate (friend - coo player...) with equal karma award will start to be very good (of course with no augmentation at all). Ware is expensive and a lot of things that has the same effect as ware can be bought in normal gear, but as a ware character, saving all money for cyber/bio upgrades, adept can get lot of customized equipment.
Starting with no ware is hard, but as you progress in magic and meta-magic (+addition power points from innitiation) and get more powers you don't need any ware upgrades at all.
And I really don't think Adept cant compare with ware samurai in ROLL playing. In combat, be it melee or ranged, experienced adepts can easily match experienced ware samurai and in normal environment, will easily beat them.
Try it for your self. You are very experienced in character creating, so try to do two models of characters, pure human, same point building system etc..focus one on magic, the second on credit = ware upgrades. Then add to both +- 100 - 200 karma points + 250 000 - 500 000 credits. If you then look at the two characters, tell me which of them would you prefer in a ROLL focused setting/campaign.
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If you want to play a pure adept for "ROLE-playing not ROLL-playing" reasons, go for it.
I was about to argue with you, but at the end of that you DID suggest that the adept would end up buying some alphaware so.... what is your point? I thought you were talking about pure (ie, no ware) adepts? If what you're saying is that STARTING with no 'ware and then getting it later on is sensible, then yes, that is a reasonable choice if you want to make a "power now for power later" trade.
If you are claiming that not starting with 'ware and never getting it is mechanically a good idea (and yes, I do understand that someone might want to do that because they are a ROLE-player not a ROLL-player hurr), show me an adept who doesn't have Sensitive System, and isn't a sapient critter/infected/shifter/some other type of character that just can't take 'ware normally.
Er, how the heck did you get this? :o Looks like my English is really bad :P. I said that while others(you) buy alfa/beta ware augments (after earning so much credit), the adept mate (friend - coo player...) with equal karma award will start to be very good (of course with no augmentation at all). Ware is expensive and a lot of things that has the same effect as ware can be bought in normal gear, but as a ware character, saving all money for cyber/bio upgrades, adept can get lot of customized equipment.
Starting with no ware is hard, but as you progress in magic and meta-magic (+addition power points from innitiation) and get more powers you don't need any ware upgrades at all.
And I really don't think Adept cant compare with ware samurai in ROLL playing. In combat, be it melee or ranged, experienced adepts can easily match experienced ware samurai and in normal environment, will easily beat them.
Try it for your self. You are very experienced in character creating, so try to do two models of characters, pure human, same point building system etc..focus one on magic, the second on credit = ware upgrades. Then add to both +- 100 - 200 karma points + 250 000 - 500 000 credits. If you then look at the two characters, tell me which of them would you prefer in a ROLL focused setting/campaign.
Hey, no worries on the English. I just got confused by what you were saying.
I've actually done variants of that experiment - and I've always concluded that the augmented adept pulls further and further ahead of the pure adept. If you disagree, I think it's most likely because you are building the augmented adept in an inefficient way. I think the strongest argument would be this: make me a pure, no augmentations adept on 400BP, then add 200 karma and 500,000 nuyen. After I see what you are focused on, I'll make an equivalent augmented character that is numerically more efficient.
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If you want to play a pure adept for "ROLE-playing not ROLL-playing" reasons, go for it.
I was about to argue with you, but at the end of that you DID suggest that the adept would end up buying some alphaware so.... what is your point? I thought you were talking about pure (ie, no ware) adepts? If what you're saying is that STARTING with no 'ware and then getting it later on is sensible, then yes, that is a reasonable choice if you want to make a "power now for power later" trade.
If you are claiming that not starting with 'ware and never getting it is mechanically a good idea (and yes, I do understand that someone might want to do that because they are a ROLE-player not a ROLL-player hurr), show me an adept who doesn't have Sensitive System, and isn't a sapient critter/infected/shifter/some other type of character that just can't take 'ware normally.
Er, how the heck did you get this? :o Looks like my English is really bad :P. I said that while others(you) buy alfa/beta ware augments (after earning so much credit), the adept mate (friend - coo player...) with equal karma award will start to be very good (of course with no augmentation at all). Ware is expensive and a lot of things that has the same effect as ware can be bought in normal gear, but as a ware character, saving all money for cyber/bio upgrades, adept can get lot of customized equipment.
Starting with no ware is hard, but as you progress in magic and meta-magic (+addition power points from innitiation) and get more powers you don't need any ware upgrades at all.
And I really don't think Adept cant compare with ware samurai in ROLL playing. In combat, be it melee or ranged, experienced adepts can easily match experienced ware samurai and in normal environment, will easily beat them.
Try it for your self. You are very experienced in character creating, so try to do two models of characters, pure human, same point building system etc..focus one on magic, the second on credit = ware upgrades. Then add to both +- 100 - 200 karma points + 250 000 - 500 000 credits. If you then look at the two characters, tell me which of them would you prefer in a ROLL focused setting/campaign.
Hey, no worries on the English. I just got confused by what you were saying.
I've actually done variants of that experiment - and I've always concluded that the augmented adept pulls further and further ahead of the pure adept. If you disagree, I think it's most likely because you are building the augmented adept in an inefficient way. I think the strongest argument would be this: make me a pure, no augmentations adept on 400BP, then add 200 karma and 500,000 nuyen. After I see what you are focused on, I'll make an equivalent augmented character that is numerically more efficient.
I'm no expert but I believe you are right. The adept will have to use karma on attributes, skills, magic and initiation. The cybered character can drop the last two and therefore has more points to specialize and maxing stats.
Possible with really huge amounts of Karma the Adept will surpase anything but for most campaigns that is not realistic.
And yes I personally would make the pure adept anyway but I know it wouldn't give me the most powerful build.
Regards
Rasmus
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Another angle is how do you register power anyway? Is it just how many dice you can throw at one problem under optimal circumstanmces? How many dice you can throw at the problem under any circumstances? HOw many different solutions to a possible problem do you have?
Something I picked up from D&D optimisation forums was rating characters by the ability to do several other things, as that meant they always has a suitable option. I agree with this in rpgs, which is why I brought it up - I'd wager builds looking for versatility probably come out worse on these ideas as Adepts.
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Pure adept
First, you should check out the Martial Arts rules in Arsenal; they are optional (but so is Way of the Adept and gaesa), and give melee characters a much-needed boost. Also, you have 40 points of positive qualities - Ways are qualities, as is Adept.
To use this guy as a case study, a simple way to use 'ware for a strict upgrade (assuming you do indeed swap out Sensitive System for other stuff) would be:
Drop magic 6->5 (frees up 25 points)
Drop Perceptive (frees up 10 more points, makes him legal)
He's going to end up with 1 point of essence loss, so final magic 4.
Adjust adept powers to:
*Improved Reflexes 3 with Gaesa (2 pp)
*Mystic Armor 2 (.75 pp)
Attribute Boost (Strength) 1 (.25 pp)
Sustenance (.25)
Counterstrike (.5)
Linguistics (.25)
Spend 30 of the saved 35 bp buying 150000 worth of gear:
Reflex Recorder (Blades) 10000, .1 bioware essence
Reflex Recorder (Perception) 10000, .1 bioware essence
Alphaware Muscle Toner 2, 32000, .32 bioware essence
Alphaware Muscle Augmentation 1, 14000, .16 bioware essence
Alphaware Orthoskin 1, 60000, .2 bioware essence
Attention Coprocessor 3, Alphaware, 18000, .24 cyberware essence
4000 nuyen left and 5 bp left over, you can do whatever with those.
So, lost:
-3 Blades, -1 Armor, -4 perception, rolls 2 less dice to use Attribute Boost: Strength
gained:
+1 blades, +2 agility, +1 strength, +1 Armor, +4 Perception
Net results:
Same dice on Blades tests
same Armor
same Perception
+1 strength when Attribute Boost is not up, on average +.333 strength when Attribute Boost is up
+2 to Agility skills other than Blades, such as Pistols, Unarmed, and Infiltration.
Of course, you could probably do even better with a bit more fiddling and by dropping some of the less useful things, but this is a pretty clear upgrade and I did it this way to make sure it was an "apples to apples" comparison, in that the ware makes this character strictly better rather than making trades that I think are good (like exchanging a bit of overpriced armor for a lot of more useful things).
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Another angle is how do you register power anyway? Is it just how many dice you can throw at one problem under optimal circumstanmces? How many dice you can throw at the problem under any circumstances? HOw many different solutions to a possible problem do you have?
Something I picked up from D&D optimisation forums was rating characters by the ability to do several other things, as that meant they always has a suitable option. I agree with this in rpgs, which is why I brought it up - I'd wager builds looking for versatility probably come out worse on these ideas as Adepts.
It's very, very hard to make those sorts of comparisons, because it always comes down to "what kind of game does the GM run." This is why I set the benchpost as: can you make an adept who wouldn't be made better at the things they already do by using 'ware too? That is, if it's a social adept, can they use 'ware to be better at social skills without sacrificing in another area to pay for it?
You can, of course, make an adept that you cannot make an apples to apples comparison with by taking only gimmick powers - like having 6 magic, and buying, say, Distance Strike, Wall Running, Astral Perception, Living Focus, and Gliding. All of those give you unique abilities not duplicable with 'ware... but of course, this character has no synergy and nothing to back up their use of these powers, so they aren't going to be very good, and they also took some really awful powers in that mix; this is what me and my friends call a Pie Eating Adept. You simply can't compare them to an augmented adept, because what they are good at is eating pies, and there isn't cyberware that makes you better at eating pies.
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I am amazed when I look at a physical adept build that misses some really cool and inexpensive things you can replicate easily with ware. If you are doing martial arts style you should have penetrating strike and more critical strike. Where is your combat sense? I love being able to do big numbers of damage but I especially love being able to avoid big numbers of damage too. The perception abilities are also awesome. You cant hit it if you cant find it. I can buy a sensor package to wear on my wrist, face or belt or whatever to replicate everything your cyberware does for perception but you cant say the same about enhanced perception, magic sense and all the other great abilities. Adepts aren't powerful but they can be wickedly versatile.
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get Kinesics: 5
Kinesics maxes at 3
ok, so we are at 49 dice. Not 50 dice but still the current blue ribbon winner. That lets you buy 12 hits before edge, buy the way. Probably enough.
That is, indeed, awesome.
Enough dice to stop a throwing star dead in its tracks!
"For the past four years, male modeling has had a shadow cast over it by one man and five syllables: Der-ek Zoo-land-er."
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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I've actually done variants of that experiment - and I've always concluded that the augmented adept pulls further and further ahead of the pure adept. If you disagree, I think it's most likely because you are building the augmented adept in an inefficient way. I think the strongest argument would be this: make me a pure, no augmentations adept on 400BP, then add 200 karma and 500,000 nuyen. After I see what you are focused on, I'll make an equivalent augmented character that is numerically more efficient.
Before I drop here a fast combat build of an adept, I have to say, that I am kinda suprised, that nobody here mentions Adept centering. This ability is not to be underestimated, because you have negative modifiers in every fight, and if they really are not present, you can make your own (called shots to avoid armor, called shots to increase DV, shooting from cover/+ moving vehicle etc.)
400BP Human adept
Qualities: (+10)
-5 Adept
-10 Warriors way ( Improved reflexes, Combat sense, Mystic armor, @magic 8 - Improved Ability ) ; preffered X Gease optional rule)
-10 Perceptive
+5 Prejudiced (Gypsies)
+10 Amnesia
+10 Records on file
+10 Vindictive
Attributes: (-305)
-30 Body (4)
-40 Agility (5)
-20 Strength (3)
-40 Reaction (5)
-0 Charisma (1)
-40 Intuition (5)
-10 Logic (2)
-20 Willpower (3)
-40 Edge (6)
-65 Magic (6)
0 Essence (6)
Skills: (-98)
-26 Pistols ( or Automatics,... etc.) (6/8)
-18 Perception (4/6)
-18 Assensing (4/6)
-18 Unarmed (4/6)
-6 Dodge (1/3)
-6 Infiltration (1/3)
-6 Survival (1/3)
Powers: (PP - 6)
-3 Improved reflexes III
-0,75 Combat sense II
-0,75 Mystic armor II
-1 Astral Perception
-0,5 Enhanced Perception II
Equipment is not so important at this point, cause even if you spent a lot of nuyen for augmentaion, we still can +- buy the same things.
Advancement: (200 karma)
-76 Initiation grade (1-6) (Adds 5 power points + Adept centering - 7 dice now)
PPoints to spend: (5)
-1,5 Combat sense II -> VI
-0,75 Mystic armor II -> IV
-1,5 (-1,125) Improved Ability III (Pistols)
-0,5 Quick draw
-0,25 Attribute boost I (Agility)
-0,5 Enhanced Perception II -> IV
-75 Magic (7,8)
-40 Init. grade (7,8) (Adds 2 power points + Attunement item - any pistol + Masking metamagic)
PPoints to spend (2,375)
-0,75 Combat sense VI -> VIII
-1,5 Mystic armor IV -> VIII
-8 Attunement item bond
So in this teoretical exaggerated example, you have Adept centering @ 9 dice (which is rather insane), Attunement item bonus @ 5 dice, +8 Armor, +8 on reaction defensive and anti-suprise rolls, perception rolls with 16/18 dice, same goes for Assensing rolls. Attack rolls with pistol are at 21 dice, modified by any success from Attribute boost power( 9 dice so +-3 likely). Ranged defense @ 16 dice, melee @ 19 dice.
There are also other variants you can use. Using the Gease optional rule will add even more power points, rolling an elf for aditional agility, or adding Changeling II quality for metagenetic improvement ( intuition or agility), but these changes dont influence the ware/no ware difference (=.
An unarmed melee variant would also be interesting to compare. Because I think a possible muscle toner/augmentation, synaptic booster and other bioware upgrades that can fit in a -2 essence loss, cant profit over the 4 point of power points and 2 initiation grades loss.
Last thing I want to mention, as I saw your gunslinger character, in the advancement section, you cant increase your magic 3(5) - reduced by 2 with bioware - by 20 karma points to get a magic 4, you need to spend 30 karma as if your magic was 5 and you wanted to increase it to 6, then applying the -2 from essence loss. Hope it helps.
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That build is, of course, predicated on the GM allowing you to use the optional rule for power points at initiation. Is that optional rule used in Missions?
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Before I drop here a fast combat build of an adept, I have to say, that I am kinda suprised, that nobody here mentions Adept centering. This ability is not to be underestimated, because you have negative modifiers in every fight, and if they really are not present, you can make your own (called shots to avoid armor, called shots to increase DV, shooting from cover/+ moving vehicle etc.)
Last thing I want to mention, as I saw your gunslinger character, in the advancement section, you cant increase your magic 3(5) - reduced by 2 with bioware - by 20 karma points to get a magic 4, you need to spend 30 karma as if your magic was 5 and you wanted to increase it to 6, then applying the -2 from essence loss. Hope it helps.
These are both false.
First, Adept Centering does not work like that. It is a free action to use. Calling shots is also a free action, and you only get one. So you could, say, Free Action -> Adept Centering, Simple Action -> Call Shot, Simple Action -> Take Shot.
So far as I know, you are just wrong about increasing magic. SR4A says "Anything that reduces a character’s Essence will also reduce Magic. For every point (or fraction thereof ) of Essence lost, the character’s Magic attribute and her Magic maximum rating are reduced by one. A character with a Magic of 4, for example, whose Essence is reduced to 5.8 has her Magic immediately reduced to 3 and her maximum to 5. Further Essence reductions do not reduce the character’s Magic again until Essence drops below 5."
It says nothing about this working differently than any other change to an attribute and I could find no reference to a special case.
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That build is, of course, predicated on the GM allowing you to use the optional rule for power points at initiation. Is that optional rule used in Missions?
No, but I'm fine with working under that assumption. Ways are also not allowed but again I'm fine with assuming them for this purpose. If anything these both benefit augmented adepts over pure adepts.
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Somewhat related question about combat sense. Is the only limit on this power your magic attribute? Could I honestly Have a 8 reaction and 8 dice of combat sense for 16 dice of defense on any action? It says it adds extra dice to surprise and defense tests not to all reaction tests and the Gunslingers reaction + combat sense exceeds racial max on reaction so is there really no other limitation than magic rating? That right there seems pretty stellar reason to use an adept to me if it is actually the case
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Yes, it stacks; it's not a reaction bonus, it's a bonus to reaction tests.
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Before I drop here a fast combat build of an adept, I have to say, that I am kinda suprised, that nobody here mentions Adept centering. This ability is not to be underestimated, because you have negative modifiers in every fight, and if they really are not present, you can make your own (called shots to avoid armor, called shots to increase DV, shooting from cover/+ moving vehicle etc.)
Last thing I want to mention, as I saw your gunslinger character, in the advancement section, you cant increase your magic 3(5) - reduced by 2 with bioware - by 20 karma points to get a magic 4, you need to spend 30 karma as if your magic was 5 and you wanted to increase it to 6, then applying the -2 from essence loss. Hope it helps.
These are both false.
First, Adept Centering does not work like that. It is a free action to use. Calling shots is also a free action, and you only get one. So you could, say, Free Action -> Adept Centering, Simple Action -> Call Shot, Simple Action -> Take Shot.
So far as I know, you are just wrong about increasing magic. SR4A says "Anything that reduces a character’s Essence will also reduce Magic. For every point (or fraction thereof ) of Essence lost, the character’s Magic attribute and her Magic maximum rating are reduced by one. A character with a Magic of 4, for example, whose Essence is reduced to 5.8 has her Magic immediately reduced to 3 and her maximum to 5. Further Essence reductions do not reduce the character’s Magic again until Essence drops below 5."
It says nothing about this working differently than any other change to an attribute and I could find no reference to a special case.
Well, as a GM, I would really not allow a player to build a character with magic 2, buy some ware to drop to 1, spend 5 karma to increase the magic to 2 again, buy something to drop it to 1 again etc. This is IMO kinda broken.
As for the Adept centering, the Called shots are only an example of negative modifiers, you have many others that will probably occur.
I am looking forward to your augmentation proposals :)
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I'm not going to start defending SR's design choices ;) I'm sure if you tweaked the rules enough, you could make things different, but the magic/ware interacting like that is part of why augmented adepts are better than unaugmented.
Yeah, I'm not saying adept centering is BAD, but it's not as good as you think it is. IMO 6 is the "sweet spot" for it, since that lets you negate blind fire which is most likely the biggest penalty you're going to get (remember you can only negate ONE penalty - so if you have -2 from glare, -3 from being in melee, -4 for calling a shot, you can't negate all of them at once even if you have Grade 9 centering).
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I'm not going to start defending SR's design choices ;) I'm sure if you tweaked the rules enough, you could make things different, but the magic/ware interacting like that is part of why augmented adepts are better than unaugmented.
Yeah, I'm not saying adept centering is BAD, but it's not as good as you think it is. IMO 6 is the "sweet spot" for it, since that lets you negate blind fire which is most likely the biggest penalty you're going to get (remember you can only negate ONE penalty - so if you have -2 from glare, -3 from being in melee, -4 for calling a shot, you can't negate all of them at once even if you have Grade 9 centering).
Well, this is somehow new to me and I am not sure if that is correct. • Adept Centering (Adepts Only): Adept Centering is similar to
the Centering metamagic (see Centering below) but only available
to adepts and mystic adepts. It allows an initiate to reduce
negative dice pool modifiers to Physical and Combat skills by her
initiate grade—as long as she can physically perform her chosen
method of centering.
I dont see any limitation and negative and positive modifiers stack. But yet again, its up to the GM to decide, rules are only a guide line and if they are not comprehensible, GM decides :).
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Oops, my bad, I was thinking of something else.
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Yo, I can't get your costs for Initiation to add up. Are you assuming that the character belongs to a magical group and is doing an initiatory ritual? You don't have Arcana and thus cannot join a magical group, and it would cost you 5 karma to join anyways.
I'm going to assume you do something like drop Survival or whatever for Arcana, edge the roll to join, and then actually have 205 karma, because I don't want to make you redo stuff over this - so I'll just use your values for initiation to keep things simple.
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I had 2 bp, and about 19000 nuyen left unspent that I don’t want to mess around with.
Cutting to the TLDR:
No longer depends on Attribute Boost for high agility
Significantly better defenses
Better physical and astral perception
Better skills
2 more recoil compensation
There’s an edge case where the original character has 1-2 more dice - if there’s a situation where Attribute Boost could go up beforehand and also there’s at least a -8 penalty, none of which comes from Recoil - but in every other situation the augmented character is better, often significantly so. Even in that edge case, the huge edge in defenses make up for it, IMO.
Net Changes:
+2 defense tests
+1 initiative
+4 armor
+2 Willpower (+1 stun box as well)
+3 Physical defense boxes
+1 Assensing
+4 Perception
+1 Survival
+5 Infiltration and Unarmed compared to non-attribute-boosted state, +2 compared to average Attribute Boosted state (and no simple action required to get rolling)
+4/+1 with Pistols
Trauma Damper effect (shift 1 box from P to S when P damage taken, cancel 1S when S damage taken, minimum damage 1).
+2 recoil compensation
Can cancel 3 less in penalties with Adept Centering
Gross Losses:
-1 Combat Sense, -8 Mystic Armor, -1 Improved Ability (Pistols)
No Attribute Boost (Agility) since it’s redundant
-2 Item Attunement bonus
-3 Adept Centering cancelling penalty
Gross Gains
+1 Reaction
+5 Agility all the time (+2 compared to Attribute Boosted state with average rolls)
+2 Willpower
+12 Armor
+2 Pistols skill
+3 Physical Perception
+1 to Intuition-linked skills
+2 to defense tests
+3 Physical Damage Boxes
Trauma Damper
400BP Human adept
Qualities: (+10) [10 more spent for comparison]
-5 Adept
-10 Warriors way
-10 Perceptive
-10 Aptitude (Pistols)
+5 Prejudiced (Gypsies)
+10 Amnesia
+10 Records on file
+10 Vindictive
Attributes: (-285) [20 less spent, for comparison]
-10 Body (2) (with ‘ware, augmented 4 for most purposes)
-40 Agility (5) (with ‘ware, augmented to 10)
-10 Strength (2) (with ‘ware, augmented to 3)
-65 Reaction (6) (augmented to 9)
-0 Charisma (1)
-40 Intuition (5)
-0 Logic (1) (with ‘ware, augmented to 2)
-40 Willpower (5)
-40 Edge (6)
-40 Magic (5)
0 Essence (6)
Skills: (-106) [8 more spent for comparison]
-34 Pistols ( or Automatics,... etc.) (7/9)
-18 Perception (4/6)
-18 Assensing (4/6)
-18 Unarmed (4/6)
-6 Dodge (1/3)
-6 Infiltration (1/3)
-6 Survival (1/3)
I agree, lets not fiddle with nuts, bolts, and low-cost items.
Advancement: (200 karma)
Magic will drop to 1 with essence loss, max magic drops to 2.
Increase magic to 7 and initiate grade to 5 (you have to alternate, but it’s faster to just write it all out at once:
Magic will cost 135, initiating will cost 57
8 for Item Attunement
Initate powers: Masking, Adept Centering, Item Attunement, +2 PP
Final PP allotment: 9 PP to spend. Warrior’s Way discount applies to Improved Reflexes, Combat Sense, and Improved Ability (Pistols)
[3] Improved Reflexes 3
[2.75] Combat Sense 7
[.75] Improved Ability (Pistols) 2
[.5] Quick Draw
[1] Astral Perception
[1] Enhanced Perception 4
Final Ware Loadout: -3.913 essence, 481000 spent.
(2.106 after Adapsin, 1.053 after halving) Cyberware (134200)
(1.2) Alphaware Cybertorso with Customized Body 6 (49000)
+2 Body [2] (800)
4 Armor [8] (2400)
(.45) each x2 Cyber Lower Leg (10000 each)
4 Armor [8] (1200 each)
Foot Anchor [3] (4000 each)
1 free capacity for amusing things
(.24) Alphaware Attention Coprocessor (18000)
(1.2) Geneware (170000)
(.2) Genetic Optimization (Agility) (45000)
(.4) Reakt (45000)
(.4) Qualia (40000)
(.2) Adapsin (40000)
(1.66) Bioware (234000)
(.56) Alphaware Suprathyroid Gland (90000)
(.1) Reflex Recorder (Pistols) (10000)
(.64) Alphaware Muscle Toner 4 (64000)
(.2) Trauma Damper (40000)
(.16) Alphaware Cerebral Booster (20000)
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Well, my first impression is - its not legal. Second is, if it would not be legal, why posting it :P, so - its a nice display of rule abuse (=.
I don't have the core rulebook with me now, cause I am at work, but if you look at the Adept quality description, I think, there is mentioned a warning for GMs about not letting players misuse this quality. Well, it fits for you perfectly (=.
It all comes back to the essence loss/magic advancement karma cost. A -4 essence, 7 magic character is in fact a magic 11 character.
(BTW. we keep a house rule of limiting magic @ 9 = 1,5x natural maximum of 6. If you loose 4 essence, your natural maximum for magic becomes 2, limiting you to magic and grade @ 3 =1,5x2)
This is the main reason, why no one in our group would even think about such a character (=.
Anyway, good job with this, the character looks complete ruined for me ;D, but it has probably better ROLL chances that the pure one.
I will check all the ware you listed to improve my knowledge and get more info on it, because I am not really familiar with cyber torso/legs replacements and I don't know how exactly they work.
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Well, yes, you might change things somewhat if you start throwing in houserules. Also, your argument doesn't really make much sense - there's some underlying cognitive dissonance. You were claiming that augmented adepts were not actually better than unaugmented adepts... and then you say you have houserules to prevent augmented adepts from working, and claim that they are abusive! If they aren't better, why is it "abusive" to be one? And why do you need houserules for them?
You actually don't need to lose more than 1 essence to make an augmented adept that's more effective than an unaugmented one, if you so choose. If you give me a minute, I'll make a Shiroi's Houserules Compliant augmented adept, although the effectiveness difference will be a bit less stark.
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Actually, your houserules don't even really change things that much. Here's a simple way to modify your original character that complies with both your houserules and results in a better (but RUINED :'( ) adept.
Overall, in the very select circumstance of taking at least a -9 penalty to a shot when Attribute Boosted and using your attuned weapon and none of the penalty is from recoil or from called shots, the original adept has +1 more die to hit. Even in those circumstances, I’d rather have all the other benefits like more initiative, better defenses, and more perception and infiltration - and those are some VERY specific circumstances. Most of the time, the augmented adept is just better in every way.
Also, the gap is even bigger if you use automatics, since you can slap a cyberarm gyromount in, and that+foot anchors is 5 recoil compensation with 2-handed weapons, which is a huge benefit to an automatics user. But I'm assuming pistols here, where 2 recoil compensation is nice, but not critical.
Net results:
+1 initiative
+1 melee and range defense
-1 surprise tests
+1 armor
+2 perception
+2 recoil compensation
+3 P damage boxes
-2 Adept Centering penalty cancelling
+4 to pistols versus not attribute boosted/ +1 versus average attribute boost
+5/+2 for Unarmed and Infiltration
2 points of essence will be lost to 'ware, thus 2 less intiations, freeing up 40 karma - and I'm assuming the cost for raising magic will be the same, per your houserule.
Buy up Reaction to 6 with 30 karma
Buy up Assensing to 5 with 10 karma
Take the Warrior's Way discount on Improved Reflexes, Combat Sense, and Improved Ability (Pistols)
This character has 6 + 3 = 9 power points to spend
[3] Improved Reflexes 3
[2.25] Combat Sense 6
[.75] Improved Ability (Pistols) 2
[.5] Quick Draw
[1] Astral Perception
[.75] Enhanced Perception 3
[.75] Improved Ability (Agility)
Ware
Geneware: Genetic Optimization (Agility) (45000) .2 essence
Reakt (45000) .4 essence
Bioware: Betaware Muscle Toner 4 (160000) .56 essence
Betaware Reflex Recorder (Pistols) (50000) .07 essence
Cyberware: 2 Alphaware Cyber Lower Legs and Alphaware Cyber Lower Arm (off-arm) with Armor 3, Foot Anchors in both feet, and 3 or 4 capacity worth of whatever (81400, 1.08 essence)
Deltaware Attention Coprocessor 3 (90000, .15 essence)
You could easily jam a bit more stuff in there but whatever, it works.
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Another angle is how do you register power anyway? Is it just how many dice you can throw at one problem under optimal circumstanmces? How many dice you can throw at the problem under any circumstances? HOw many different solutions to a possible problem do you have?
Something I picked up from D&D optimisation forums was rating characters by the ability to do several other things, as that meant they always has a suitable option. I agree with this in rpgs, which is why I brought it up - I'd wager builds looking for versatility probably come out worse on these ideas as Adepts.
It's very, very hard to make those sorts of comparisons, because it always comes down to "what kind of game does the GM run." This is why I set the benchpost as: can you make an adept who wouldn't be made better at the things they already do by using 'ware too? That is, if it's a social adept, can they use 'ware to be better at social skills without sacrificing in another area to pay for it?
You can, of course, make an adept that you cannot make an apples to apples comparison with by taking only gimmick powers - like having 6 magic, and buying, say, Distance Strike, Wall Running, Astral Perception, Living Focus, and Gliding. All of those give you unique abilities not duplicable with 'ware... but of course, this character has no synergy and nothing to back up their use of these powers, so they aren't going to be very good, and they also took some really awful powers in that mix; this is what me and my friends call a Pie Eating Adept. You simply can't compare them to an augmented adept, because what they are good at is eating pies, and there isn't cyberware that makes you better at eating pies.
You are correct that it can well be hard to make those comparisions and it depends on the GM, although that's often the case for lots of these. That doesn't make the point invalid though (in particular, frequency of background counts looms heavily in discussion of Adept effectiveness).
The point of versatility though, which I will probabbly expand some other time, went unanswered - and that was the biggest point in this. The Adept vs. Augmented Adept vs. Augmented so far seems to be on "Pick something, then be really good at it", which are grounds that favour the Adept. I'm curious to see where these comparisions lead with characters that actively try to cover two or three niches well, as it is an area where personally I expect to see the Adept start losing heavier.
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Well, my first impression is - its not legal. Second is, if it would not be legal, why posting it :P , so - its a nice display of rule abuse (=.
I don't have the core rulebook with me now, cause I am at work, but if you look at the Adept quality description, I think, there is mentioned a warning for GMs about not letting players misuse this quality. Well, it fits for you perfectly (=.
It all comes back to the essence loss/magic advancement karma cost. A -4 essence, 7 magic character is in fact a magic 11 character.
(BTW. we keep a house rule of limiting magic @ 9 = 1,5x natural maximum of 6. If you loose 4 essence, your natural maximum for magic becomes 2, limiting you to magic and grade @ 3 =1,5x2)
This is the main reason, why no one in our group would even think about such a character (=.
Anyway, good job with this, the character looks complete ruined for me ;D , but it has probably better ROLL chances that the pure one.
The passage you're looking for is this:
Though this quality is inexpensive, gamemasters should be careful not to allow it to be abused. It should only be taken for characters that are intended to be played as adepts.
As a guy who starts off a magic 6 with no ware and then buys up his magic to 7, I think counts as an adept.
Also I'm not sure you wouldn't allow the story of a man who is heavily focused on his magical abilities, nearly loses it, and then has to reforge his magic connection as a ROLEplay option.
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Another angle is how do you register power anyway? Is it just how many dice you can throw at one problem under optimal circumstanmces? How many dice you can throw at the problem under any circumstances? HOw many different solutions to a possible problem do you have?
Something I picked up from D&D optimisation forums was rating characters by the ability to do several other things, as that meant they always has a suitable option. I agree with this in rpgs, which is why I brought it up - I'd wager builds looking for versatility probably come out worse on these ideas as Adepts.
It's very, very hard to make those sorts of comparisons, because it always comes down to "what kind of game does the GM run." This is why I set the benchpost as: can you make an adept who wouldn't be made better at the things they already do by using 'ware too? That is, if it's a social adept, can they use 'ware to be better at social skills without sacrificing in another area to pay for it?
You can, of course, make an adept that you cannot make an apples to apples comparison with by taking only gimmick powers - like having 6 magic, and buying, say, Distance Strike, Wall Running, Astral Perception, Living Focus, and Gliding. All of those give you unique abilities not duplicable with 'ware... but of course, this character has no synergy and nothing to back up their use of these powers, so they aren't going to be very good, and they also took some really awful powers in that mix; this is what me and my friends call a Pie Eating Adept. You simply can't compare them to an augmented adept, because what they are good at is eating pies, and there isn't cyberware that makes you better at eating pies.
You are correct that it can well be hard to make those comparisions and it depends on the GM, although that's often the case for lots of these. That doesn't make the point invalid though (in particular, frequency of background counts looms heavily in discussion of Adept effectiveness).
The point of versatility though, which I will probabbly expand some other time, went unanswered - and that was the biggest point in this. The Adept vs. Augmented Adept vs. Augmented so far seems to be on "Pick something, then be really good at it", which are grounds that favour the Adept. I'm curious to see where these comparisions lead with characters that actively try to cover two or three niches well, as it is an area where personally I expect to see the Adept start losing heavier.
The reason why augmented versus unaugmented adept debates typically take "anything you can do I can do better than you" is because it's clear and simple. What is and isn't a good idea for a character varies wildy in a SR game. Thus arguments like "well I have -3 dice to shoot pistols, but I have the ability to pick a rating 4 maglock" don't really work. Because if doing this is a good idea varies wildly based on the ratio between hardware tests and pistols tests you make. And that depends on the nature of your game, the other players, and the challenges they face.
Thus, you take it as a given that a given character is "well-rounded" enough to function and merely showing that they would be better if they took some ware. Being able to do something else is a feather in your cap in your argument, but is not the thrust of it.
D&D Optimization takes a more generalist approach mainly as a way to point out the failure of non-casters in that system. Sure you can make a fighter who can do a respectable amount of damage with a sword. But you can make a caster who does that much damage while being able to do everything else in the game.
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Final Ware Loadout: -3.913 essence, 481000 spent.
(2.106 after Adapsin, 1.053 after halving) Cyberware (134200)
(1.2) Alphaware Cybertorso with Customized Body 6 (49000)
+2 Body [2] (800)
4 Armor [8] (2400)
(.45) each x2 Cyber Lower Leg (10000 each)
4 Armor [8] (1200 each)
Foot Anchor [3] (4000 each)
1 free capacity for amusing things
(.24) Alphaware Attention Coprocessor (18000)
(1.2) Geneware (170000)
(.2) Genetic Optimization (Agility) (45000)
(.4) Reakt (45000)
(.4) Qualia (40000)
(.2) Adapsin (40000)
(1.66) Bioware (234000)
(.56) Alphaware Suprathyroid Gland (90000)
(.1) Reflex Recorder (Pistols) (10000)
(.64) Alphaware Muscle Toner 4 (64000)
(.2) Trauma Damper (40000)
(.16) Alphaware Cerebral Booster (20000)
So, if I am correct, bioware does not function in cyber body parts, magic based powers (like increased reflexes, increased attribute,..) could also have problems with it. In general, everything from Health spells category has a problem with cyber/bio parts in the system. So as a GM, I would first explain to you, why I think your cyber torso and both your cyber lower legs hinder with your coordination and would not transfer bio upgrades / certain powers (your cyber body parts have all ability, reaction 3).
So obviously, to avoid large agility and reaction dice looses, your next move would be, upgrading your customized cyber limbs to your augmented values, loosing maybe few numbers in armor and increasing the cost.
The last think on my mind would be, that the disturbance in the body (caused by huge essence loss) will be the cause of health issues in any magic user ( headaches, focus problems,..) and this gets me to an image, where you trade the Adept quality with Magician and use the same metod as you did. Well, no sense to continue more in this direction.
Also I'm not sure why the story of a man who is heavily focused on his magical abilities, nearly loses it, and then has to reforge his magic connection won't be allowed as a ROLEplay option.
I also see no problem in this, but tell me, should it be profitable for the character to do it this way? Or should it be more hard for him?
If you have 2 characters with starting magic 5, 1 of them decides to drop 2 points of magic for the best combat ware, you will loose 20 BP and have to make it up by 45 karma points. Now if you start at magic 3, do it the same way, you will again loose 20 BP, but only 25 karma points. So its actualy very profitable to spend 20 BP and the first 25 karma points for nice 2 essence points worth of ware and then continue the road of increasing magic, because based on how karma system works, after a while, you will be, in fact, on the same magic level as the non wared character (you ok with this).
On the other hand, if you handle magic/essence loss more logically (as I said before) then a character with magic 3 that buys 2 essence worth of ware (now magic 1), would have to buy an increase of magic to 2 as if he had magic 3 and wanted to increase it to 4 (20 karma points). So, now it is balanced and players cant profit from it, because they will be 2 points of magic behind all the time, and they have the ware to compansate it.
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So, if I am correct, bioware does not function in cyber body parts, magic based powers (like increased reflexes, increased attribute,..) could also have problems with it. In general, everything from Health spells category has a problem with cyber/bio parts in the system. So as a GM, I would first explain to you, why I think your cyber torso and both your cyber lower legs hinder with your coordination and would not transfer bio upgrades / certain powers (your cyber body parts have all ability, reaction 3).
So obviously, to avoid large agility and reaction dice looses, your next move would be, upgrading your customized cyber limbs to your augmented values, loosing maybe few numbers in armor and increasing the cost.
The last think on my mind would be, that the disturbance in the body (caused by huge essence loss) will be the cause of health issues in any magic user ( headaches, focus problems,..) and this gets me to an image, where you trade the Adept quality with Magician and use the same metod as you did. Well, no sense to continue more in this direction.
Your argument appears to have changed from "Adepts are not worse than Augmented Adepts" to "I made up some rules that make Augmented Adepts not allowed, because I don't like them." It's bad form to keep changing your argument as your points are disproven, and I'm done discussing this topic with you since I'm sure whatever points I make, you'll just respond by saying that I'm wrong because of your houserules (which you, conveniently, only seem to mention after they become relevant).
Incidentally, cyberlimbs don't have Reaction scores. Reaction is a whole body attribute. Also, health spells in general are not hindered by essence loss, only the single, specific spell Heal. Lastly, I don't think you know how the rules for cyberlimb ability scores and tests with them work; you should read http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=4672.msg70364#msg70364 where Hida Tsuzua explains how they function; I'm not honestly sure how you think they work.
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I also see no problem in this, but tell me, should it be profitable for the character to do it this way? Or should it be more hard for him?
If you have 2 characters with starting magic 5, 1 of them decides to drop 2 points of magic for the best combat ware, you will loose 20 BP and have to make it up by 45 karma points. Now if you start at magic 3, do it the same way, you will again loose 20 BP, but only 25 karma points. So its actualy very profitable to spend 20 BP and the first 25 karma points for nice 2 essence points worth of ware and then continue the road of increasing magic, because based on how karma system works, after a while, you will be, in fact, on the same magic level as the non wared character (you ok with this).
On the other hand, if you handle magic/essence loss more logically (as I said before) then a character with magic 3 that buys 2 essence worth of ware (now magic 1), would have to buy an increase of magic to 2 as if he had magic 3 and wanted to increase it to 4 (20 karma points). So, now it is balanced and players cant profit from it, because they will be 2 points of magic behind all the time, and they have the ware to compansate it.
That's really only going to cost the adept ~20 karma more for 2 magic loss. Sure it now costs more, but it's not that bad compared to the huge advantages you get. Umaro's second adept ends up with 10 karma left over and -1 reaction. He's still better with the ware.
You really have to come up with houserule after houserule to make pure adepts work. Their fundamental issues is that there aren't enough good powers that justify their cost. Thus, it's going to be a good idea to grab the low hanging ware fruit once you have the basics done.
Personally, I think the modern adept design needs to be wiped clean. I have some ideas such as having adept powers scale with magic rating rather than buying levels, but nothing formal.
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Actually, my second adept uses Shiroi's houserule for buying Magic with karma after losing essence.
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+1 Bump for adept powers scaling with magic. An example might be...
2 PP for +1 Reaction +1 IP per 2 Magic (rounded up) max of +3 Reaction + 3 IPs, does not stack with other forms of Initiative enhancement.
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Adapsin?
Adapsin is specifically verboten during CharGen.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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Correct - that character gets Adapsin post-chargen. Shiroi's original contention was that an augmented adept would eventually fall behind a pure adept after enough money and karma.
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Ah. Reading comprehension fail. :o
Mia culpa.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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ok, so we are at 49 dice. Not 50 dice but still the current blue ribbon winner. That lets you buy 12 hits before edge, buy the way. Probably enough.
Can't let the ribbon go by me, so here's the latest pornomancer build
Pornomancer:
Surged dryad adept with
Charisma 15 (Metegenic Improvement (Charisma) + Genetic Optimization (Charisma) + increase charisma spell with 5 successes)
Or Charisma 13(Metegenic Improvement (Charisma) + Genetic Optimization (Charisma) + a speedball of Ex,Red Mescaline and Novacoke)
Social skill of choice (spec) 6
Global Fame
Tailored Pheromones 3
Enhanced Phermone Receptors 3
Vocal Range Enhancer
Improved Social Ability of choice 3
Kinesics 3
Rating 6 emotitoy
Symbiosis
Mentor spirit(seductress for con or moon maiden for negotiation)
3+15+8+6+3+2+1+3+3+6+1+2= 53
or
3+13+9+6+3+2+1+3+3+6+1+2= 51
The first option does reguier the help of the teams mage, but even the second one gets over 50 8)
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ok, so we are at 49 dice. Not 50 dice but still the current blue ribbon winner. That lets you buy 12 hits before edge, buy the way. Probably enough.
Can't let the ribbon go by me, so here's the latest pornomancer build
Pornomancer:
Surged dryad adept with
Charisma 15 (Metegenic Improvement (Charisma) + Genetic Optimization (Charisma) + increase charisma spell with 5 successes)
Or Charisma 13(Metegenic Improvement (Charisma) + Genetic Optimization (Charisma) + a speedball of Ex,Red Mescaline and Novacoke)
Social skill of choice (spec) 6
Global Fame
Tailored Pheromones 3
Enhanced Phermone Receptors 3
Vocal Range Enhancer
Improved Social Ability of choice 3
Kinesics 3
Rating 6 emotitoy
Symbiosis
Mentor spirit(seductress for con or moon maiden for negotiation)
3+15+8+6+3+2+1+3+3+6+1+2= 53
or
3+13+9+6+3+2+1+3+3+6+1+2= 51
The first option does reguier the help of the teams mage, but even the second one gets over 50 8)
Curious if you can put that brain to use to 'counter' what you just did with an opposing roll to see through that. xD
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How much essence loss are you taking? You might be able to do better as a Technomancer - if you can lose 1 or less essence, you can still have resonance 5 and thus be able to thread empathy software 10, which is +4, then you lose Kinesics, but you're still up by 1. You can get everything else, swapping your mentor spirit for the paragon Idoru.
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How much essence loss are you taking? You might be able to do better as a Technomancer - if you can lose 1 or less essence, you can still have resonance 5 and thus be able to thread empathy software 10, which is +4, then you lose Kinesics, but you're still up by 1. You can get everything else, swapping your mentor spirit for the paragon Idoru.
You also lose the improved social ability 3 so your down by 2 dice.
Also i'm not sure you can get sensor software as a complex form.
But yes, techno-pornomancer is an option you can go for making a face too, but you wont be much good in the traditional duties of a techno when you sacrife a big part of your recources for being a face.(technos are allready short on points in chargen)
.But as lomg as everyone understand that your making face for the team, it should matter much.
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Oh right, I forgot about Improved Ability. You can indeed thread empathy software, but that still leaves the technomancer down 2 dice.
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I'll point out for reference that a technomancer with CF "empathy" learned at 6 and 6 resonance can thread it to 12 then add the rating of a sprite (notionally 6) for 18. Add Idoru for a paragon and that's 20 for Con before attributes, skills, and other tricks are applied.
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I keep seeing this but I dont understand how people can think you can thread or learn a complex form of empathy software. When the book describes complex forms, it specifically talks about complex forms existing to manipulate the digital matrix. When it describes empathy software it talks about analyzing the behavioral patterns of the individual that has nothing to do with digital information. It doesnt make any kind of logical sense to say a complex form can replicate analysis of non digital information based on human psychology and behavior patterns.
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I keep seeing this but I dont understand how people can think you can thread or learn a complex form of empathy software. When the book describes complex forms, it specifically talks about complex forms existing to manipulate the digital matrix. When it describes empathy software it talks about analyzing the behavioral patterns of the individual that has nothing to do with digital information. It doesnt make any kind of logical sense to say a complex form can replicate analysis of non digital information based on human psychology and behavior patterns.
I use this as the basis:
For simplicity, complex forms are identified by the programs their
functions mimic. For each program there is an equivalent complex
form, with the exception of Biofeedback Filter, which is part of the
living persona. Some programs have different effects when used as a
complex form, which are noted in the program’s description. Agents,
IC, and autosofts may not be learned or used by technomancers. -- SR4A 239
Sensor software is software that takes data the sensors provide and analyze it in a fashion that makes it of effective use for the player. Is there a CF that does the same thing?
Smartlink
Although the technomancer’s physiology and wireless capabilities
enable him to “talk” to smartlinked devices (e.g., exchange data
with a weapon and display it accordingly) without any additional
devices, he normally lacks the hard-coded tactical software to translate
the information into visual cues that simplify target recognition,
aiming, and shooting in combat. However, technomancers can simply
create this program by learning it as a permanent complex form,
or improvise the necessary algorithms by threading. -- UN 136
Since the TM can CF smartlink, sensor software seems valid.
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The difference is that is communication between a smartlinked wireless gun and the technomancer. He is reading the wireless signals and using a complex form to interpret those signals. Sensor software is reading the behavior and physical signals of an analog source, namely a person. Plus the targeting data from a smartgun is pretty cut and dried compared to the thousands of variations in human emotional responses. It seems very different to me and sort of a massive stretch beyond the intent and scope of a technomancer and his or her ability to interact with the machine and matrix world. Not only that but in Unwired it specifically addresses complex forms and sensor software and talks about needing access to databases and special sensors to make anything like empathy software work. Since technomancers have nobuilt in extra memory where would the massive database information be?
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I'll point out for reference that a technomancer with CF "empathy" learned at 6 and 6 resonance can thread it to 12 then add the rating of a sprite (notionally 6) for 18. Add Idoru for a paragon and that's 20 for Con before attributes, skills, and other tricks are applied.
Sprites don't give you a bonus; they increase the rating, so it's still capped by Resonance x2
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I'll point out for reference that a technomancer with CF "empathy" learned at 6 and 6 resonance can thread it to 12 then add the rating of a sprite (notionally 6) for 18. Add Idoru for a paragon and that's 20 for Con before attributes, skills, and other tricks are applied.
Sprites don't give you a bonus; they increase the rating, so it's still capped by Resonance x2
Ah, misremembered that. Thank you. (darnit).
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ok, so we are at 49 dice. Not 50 dice but still the current blue ribbon winner. That lets you buy 12 hits before edge, buy the way. Probably enough.
Can't let the ribbon go by me, so here's the latest pornomancer build
Pornomancer:
Surged dryad adept with
Charisma 15 (Metegenic Improvement (Charisma) + Genetic Optimization (Charisma) + increase charisma spell with 5 successes)
Or Charisma 13(Metegenic Improvement (Charisma) + Genetic Optimization (Charisma) + a speedball of Ex,Red Mescaline and Novacoke)
Social skill of choice (spec) 6
Global Fame
Tailored Pheromones 3
Enhanced Phermone Receptors 3
Vocal Range Enhancer
Improved Social Ability of choice 3
Kinesics 3
Rating 6 emotitoy
Symbiosis
Mentor spirit(seductress for con or moon maiden for negotiation)
3+15+8+6+3+2+1+3+3+6+1+2= 53
or
3+13+9+6+3+2+1+3+3+6+1+2= 51
The first option does reguier the help of the teams mage, but even the second one gets over 50 8)
Curious if you can put that brain to use to 'counter' what you just did with an opposing roll to see through that. xD
Start by Insisting that meetings happen on the matrix, and go VR yourself or use voice manipulation software. That strips glamour, both pheromones, kinesics, vocal range enhancer, emotitoy, and symbiosis: remove 22 points. That takes this build to "only" 29 to 31.
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The difference is that is communication between a smartlinked wireless gun and the technomancer. He is reading the wireless signals and using a complex form to interpret those signals. Sensor software is reading the behavior and physical signals of an analog source, namely a person. Plus the targeting data from a smartgun is pretty cut and dried compared to the thousands of variations in human emotional responses. It seems very different to me and sort of a massive stretch beyond the intent and scope of a technomancer and his or her ability to interact with the machine and matrix world. Not only that but in Unwired it specifically addresses complex forms and sensor software and talks about needing access to databases and special sensors to make anything like empathy software work. Since technomancers have nobuilt in extra memory where would the massive database information be?
Let me counter most of that by quoting what you mention in your penultimate sentence. Key statement emphasized by me:
In theory, a technomancer can adapt any piece of
software by mimicking the program with a complex
form that he shapes (by threading or learning) based
on the original. Since a number of programs such as
Sensor software (p. 60, Arsenal) or tacsofts (p. 125) require
connections to sensors, databases, and/or other
auxiliary data, a technomancer can only use complex
forms based on that software if he has a connection
to such sensors, databases, or auxiliary components.
Individual gamemasters may choose whether to allow
this in their games.
I'm not going to quote the descriptions of all the sensor software from Arsenal, just the empathy. However I'll note that only two have a stated requirement for databases (weapon watcher and wildlife spotter). The others that mention databases say it's AN option, to match an existing sample against an accessed database. However, empathy says:
Empathy software is designed for use with
standard video/trideo cameras, carefully analyzing the behavioral
patterns of the subject to ascertain mood, interest, and so
on. Empathy soft ware can be used to make a Judge Intentions Test
(see p. 130, SR4) for emotional status using its rating as the dice
pool. It does not detect falsehoods; that’s the realm of lie detection
soft ware. Empathy soft ware can be discreetly used in real time during
negotiations or social interactions, adding its rating as a dice
pool bonus to the character’s Social skill tests.
In short, empathy software is more akin to tacsoft than it is to knowsoft.
As to the remainder of your argument, you boggled me. A smartlink interprets data from the sensors of the smartgun and provides the results for use. Empathy software interprets data from other sensors and provides the results for use. That the smartgun's data is "cut and dried" doesn't change the fact it's a lot of wildly variable data that is being interpreted so as to be useful. "Oh, windspeed is 15 kph at 45 degrees to flight of bullet. Adjust aimpoint... crap, where's that formula?"
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All sensor software would need a database. A machine can easily determine windspeed without difficulty. Measuring physical data is what machines excel at. It is why we have machines. Determining embarrassment over a sexual infidelity requires massive reference data and isnt what a machine is designed or capable of doing on it's own at all. Unless your camera has some kind of highly emotive AI involved how would it understand emotions? It needs reference data. As for your argument that it is like a tascoft, well, tacsofts are on the same list as empathy software that you can't thread without databases. A tacsoft database tells you what weapon your enemy is using based on your sensor datat and it's capabilities or evaluates the armor for weaknesses. I wouldnt read that and let a technomancer thread a tacsoft either. It doesnt fit the theme of a technomancer and doesnt make logical sense.
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I'm not sure you're reading the same empathy software description I'm reading. "analyzing the behavioral patterns of the subject to ascertain mood, interest, and so on."
Here's empathy software analysis level one - an old and simple merchant/bargaining/negotiating tool: Program observes subject's pupils and pulse rate, and reports when either changes (and percentage of change). Error balancing for pupils is any change in ambient light. Error change for pulse is change in activity.
Both are involuntary reactions. Pupils dilate when a person is interested or pleased, and they constrict in the opposite case. Pulse rate changes as well.
If the sensors are good enough they can also measure capillary expansion (which in the extreme leads to blushing).
None of that requires a database.
Ah, well, when you're GM you rule as you wish, and when I'm GM I'll allow that option.
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Actually you are 100% wrong and your argument proves my case. By saying that pupil dilation indicates interest is a function of the sensor software either your character needs to already know that with a skill or the software has to tell you that. For the software to tell you that it has to have the information linking pupil dilation and interest stored somewhere. Software doesn't "know" anything not stored in a database and characters don't know about psychology and anatomy without skills. A camera alerting you that a pupil dilated is useless information if it comes without context. Context that has to be stored somewhere. Like a database maybe
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Yet the TM can CF smartlinks. She can compile a tutor sprite that has a skillsoft she doesn't know, which she can then use via the sprite's proficiency.
She can run Analyze, which somehow knows all the possible system resources and registries, regardless of operating system. She can use Analyze to detect computer viruses and worms and trojans.
This is a world of magic. A technomancer is a reflection of magic within the matrix. Note, not magic, but a reflection of it, doing what is supposedly impossible.
This is a world where a man can turn into a falcon, fly a distance, then change back and immolate a squad of soldiers merely by "wishing' it so.
This is a world where a troll (!) can, with his mind, intercept, decrypt, pattern match, determine originating system, hack into it and create a new valid user.
But a program can't have a simple instruction set that says "if the pupils get bigger the subject is either in brighter light or likes what she's seeing/hearing/thinking."
I get it. You don't like technomancers. Fortunately for you, using that CF is optional. Unfortunately, TMs are not.
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Actually I think technomancers are incredibly cool but they have a role and a theme. Complex forms dont exist to replace skills, which is why you cant complex form autosofts and other skillsofts and as far as I am concerned empathy software. Once you start breaking the theme you lessen how cool they are. Digital matrix specialists is what they do, they do it incredibly well and it is an awesome feature of the game. Making it more than that just makes them magicians, which is lame.
As for your argument that software gets an inherent database without needing a database because magic exists is a pretty weak argument.
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Actually I think technomancers are incredibly cool but they have a role and a theme. Complex forms dont exist to replace skills, which is why you cant complex form autosofts and other skillsofts and as far as I am concerned empathy software. Once you start breaking the theme you lessen how cool they are. Digital matrix specialists is what they do, they do it incredibly well and it is an awesome feature of the game. Making it more than that just makes them magicians, which is lame.
As for your argument that software gets an inherent database without needing a database because magic exists is a pretty weak argument.
I guess you haven't read Unwired.
After the first submersion a Technomancer can if he picked the right Echo emulate skillsofts into complexforms.
Also the empathy software does have an inbuild database because the rules doesn't mention it needing an external database.
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Some things dont need to be explicitly stated, some things any rational person who even tried to understand the themes of the game and the way software works should be quite easily understood. Threading and complex forms are specifically for manipulating digital information, not storing information and not processing non digital information. I believe the cited section of Unwired makes that clear when talking about sensor software and tacsofts. Software can not think or rember for itself without some kind of database and threading can not create a database without information available. Now, if the technomancer had high knowledge skills in anatomy and psychology I might let him thread the software up to his knowledge skill in rating using his own knowledge as the database but I would never let him essentially invent skills and knowledge the way this is insinuating
And yes you can get skillwires after you submerge/initiate but even then you cant thread them above the rating of the original skillsoft you used to emulate the form so you are stuck generally with fairly low levels of ability compared to actual complex forms you can thread normally in terms of ratings and you cant improve those ratings with karma either. Much different situation
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Some things dont need to be explicitly stated, some things any rational person who even tried to understand the themes of the game and the way software works should be quite easily understood.
Yes it should be quite easy for anyone to understand that a software that mentions nothing about needing an external database to work, really doesn't need an external database to work, using instead an internall database that is part of the program in question.
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So how does a technomancer build a database, internal or external (honestly there is no functional difference between these things) with threading? A data base is a storehouse of information, raw data. If the technomancer doesnt have that information where does it come from when threading or building a complex form? Everything they build comes from within their own minds
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So how does a technomancer build a database, internal or external (honestly there is no functional difference between these things) with threading? A data base is a storehouse of information, raw data. If the technomancer doesnt have that information where does it come from when threading or building a complex form? Everything they build comes from within their own minds
Existing CFs that use "databases" as per your claim:
Analyze
Exploit
Decrypt - oh, I especially reference decrypt:
Decrypt programs are designed to conduct a number of cipher-busting attacks—from pattern analysis to brute-force dictionary assaults to sophisticated mathematical tricks—to break into an encrypted system or service.
Those are the ones clearly need a long list of possible data on which to build - a dataabase. "A data base is a storehouse of information, raw data. If the technomancer doesnt have that information where does it come from when threading or building a complex form? Everything they build comes from within their own mind."
Where is the technomancer sustaining the database of cipher-busting attacks?
Where is the technomancer getting the database of security flaws and weaknesses?
Where is the database of registries, icon functions and types, program types, and so on that are necessary for Analyze to do a matrix perception report?
Saying a CF can't do that flies in the face of the fact that some CFs do, indeed, do that. It is the same reason saying it can't act as an interpreter between a set of sensors and the user fails.
The only valid reason is that the rulebook says it is optional, and it is an option you choose to not use. As I said, I happen to accept that reason from you for your game.
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It says in the books that technomancers instinctively work with digital information, breaking codes and detecting inconsistency in other programs and hardware by intuition. They sense flaws in programs, electronics, decryption and matrix ready devices. Technomancer intuition doesnt extend to programs that dont deal with digital information and is purely part of the physical realm.. At least that is my reading on the difference. Just like there are limitations with what an astral character can do with the physical realm. They just dont naturally overlap
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So how does a technomancer build a database, internal or external (honestly there is no functional difference between these things) with threading? A data base is a storehouse of information, raw data. If the technomancer doesnt have that information where does it come from when threading or building a complex form?
The Resonance Realms.
Those contain all data that has ever been in the matrix.
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Someone want to clear up what this discussion is about because I just read the last 10 post and i'm confused as to what you are arguing and if you are arguing the same thing. O.o'
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Someone want to clear up what this discussion is about because I just read the last 10 post and i'm confused as to what you are arguing and if you are arguing the same thing. O.o'
At core, Solomon does not think the optional rule to allow technomancers to have sensor software as CFs should be used, and some of the rest of us do.
Beyond that, I think it's a matter of clashing interpretations of rules and perceptions of real life. It isn't acrimonious or it'd be a thread locker, but it's becoming repetitive enough that may happen anyway.