[saithor]

Hello, I am Saithor, and I am a complete noob at this game. As is, I quickly skimmed through the Sample characters and looked for ones that would catch my interest in both flavor and crunch. I thought the Weapon Specialist was cool, a tough as nails ex-soldier with a plethora of weapons. However, then I found out that the Sample characters were incorrectly constructed, and in some cases were really OP or UP. I don't know wether the Weapon Specialist is or not. So could all of you much more knolwedgable players and GMs please help me out here? I have a couple of goals in mind.
1. Improve Playability without requiring a complete from the ground-up redesign.
2. Make sure that the character is completely rule-legal
3. Make sure that the character's fluff is still intact.

If I have broken some form of Taboo or rule by making this thread, please let me know.

Also, a final question, I found several articles that say that 5th edition is a lot worse than 4th edition. Any opinions on that?

[ZeldaBravo]

Hello Saithor!
There is a thread with a successful attempt to fix sample characters, weapon specialist is there and is rules legal. In terms of improving playability I would recommend removing the cyberarm and getting wired reflexes 1 instead.
Chummer5 is a nice character manager and builder and I hope it will help you and your group with... well, building and managing your characters.
And about 4e vs 5e - my opinion is 'No'.

[Glyph]

Look at that thread (in the previous post) where the archetypes are analyzed for errors and fixed.  It will allow you to make a few comparatively minor changes to make the character rules-legal (as opposed to some, like the street samurai, with major problems).

Unfortunately, you can't really make the character more playable without a complete from the ground-up redesign.  This is because the character's main problem is that the only augmentation she has is a cyberarm that gives her a whopping 2 extra points of Strength, and that's it.  Overall, while the character has a nice, organic feel to it, there are three strikes against it.  One, it is a mundane, all-but-unaugmented build in a game where magic and augmentations can either give you comparatively cheap boosts, or turn you from merely good into superhuman.  Two, she is a generalist whose skills are spread out a lot, without enough high ones.  Unaugmented Agility and skills at 5 or lower is not good for a character whose primary role is, well, combat.  Three, while well-rounded in skills, even that doesn't make her as versatile as other skill monkeys, because so much of it is tied up in redundant combat skills.  She has a lot of different ways to do two basic things, hit people and shoot people.  The archetype has one of my favorite pieces of artwork in the book, and she would be great as a hard-bitten merc contact, or a character is a lower-powered campaign.  But anyone making an augmented street samurai or a combat-oriented adept will probably outshine her.


For your final question, I will only say that SR4, by virtue of being out longer, has had numerous errata and lots of rules supplements printed for it.  SR5 has drawn some ire for proofreading problems and the implementation of a few things such as wireless bonuses.  But you don't really want to open that can of worms in a character creation thread - it has the potential to swiftly dominate the discussion, as many people have strong feeling on which edition they prefer.

[Tarislar]

1.  Looking over the WS, there is a lot of stuff there, and a lot of it is less than optimal.  Some makes little sense.  Arm w/ Same level of Agi ?
2.  As for 5th being "worse", I think a lot of people are upset at the base of the add on books & that a lot of the stuff has what appear to be copy/paste errors that show the books needed some serious additional editing.  I skipped 4th myself, so 5th has a full new feel to me compared to 3rd or 1st.
So far I like the mechanics of it in many ways.  But there are some things that could be better IMHO.
3.  Moving on to the basis of this, char-rebuild.
**  Disclaimer:  The "Weapon Specialist" is really IMHO, a "Generalist" in every freaking weapon in the game.  Its less about being very good with any of them & more about having a different weapon for every day of the week.  As nifty as that seems, I've got to change some things to make it a bit more optimized.

Building - ReBuilding the WS from Pg. 118

10 Group Skill Points = Priority-A
28 Attr = Priority-B
Edge-5 = Priority-D
Magic-None = Priority-E
Leaving Priority-C = $140K


Attributes:
Body-3
Agility-3
Reaction-5 (7)
Strength-3
Willpower-3
Logic-3
Intuition-4
Charisma-4
Edge-5
Essence-3.06
Initiative-9(11)+1d
PhysLim-6
MentLim-5
SoclLim-5

Group-Athletics-4
Group-Influence-6
Armorer-6
Blades-6     (Knives+2)
Computer-6
LongArms-6
Perception-6     (Visual+2)
Pistols-6     (Semi Auto+2)
Sneaking-6     (Urban+2)


Purchase Skills = 26 Karma
Group Engineering -1
Group Outdoors-1
Automatics-1
Demolitions-1
First Aid-1
Gunnery-1
Heavy Weapons-1
Pilot Ground Craft-1
Throwing Weapons-1
Unarmed-1

Qualities
Allergy-Mild-Gold -5
Code of Honor-Civvies/NonCombs -15
SINner-National-UCAS -5
Catlike +7
Natural Athlete +7


Contacts-12
Fixer = 5/2
Fence = 1/4


Resources = $160K

Augmentations:
14,500 = CyberEyes-2 w/ Flare, Smartlink, Thermo, Magnification
9,600 = Alpha-Plastic Bone Lacing
19,500 = Used-Reaction Enhancers-2
78,750 = Used-CyberArm-Right-Used w/ Agility-9, Strength-9, Commlink-Hermes Ikon, CyberArm Slide, Armor-3, Fingertip Compartment
7,200 = Alpha-Damage Compensators-3

Basic Life:
2,000 = Low Lifestyle
10,000 = Fake SIN-4
2,400 = Fake Licenses-4  (Cyberware, Firearms, Concealed)
1,400 = Globetrotter Jacket (Fire-4) + Helmet
2,600 = Electrochromic Ace of Coins Suit
8,500 = Suzuki Mirage


Selection of Weapons:
Combat Knife
Survival Knife
Defiance EX Shocker w/ Laser
Fichetti Security 600
Ares Predator-V
Ares Viper w/ Ex-Smtgn
Remington 950
Enfield AS-7

You'll have to double check the cash for those weapons but I know the basics & augs fits in the 160K mark.
Select a few, buy more later.


If I do say so myself, the character now has a bit of an "Ex-Officer" feel.  Solid ability to "face" as well as plenty of combat skills & even some Techno skills.  About the only thing I was unhappy about was Initiative Dice.  I would have liked to add some.  That said w/ 5 Edge to blitz if needed & the Reaction Enhancers giving a tiny boost, he isn't going to be horridly slow.  Heck, he could even take a hit of Cram if needed.

[ZeldaBravo]

I guess agility 3 is there to justify a cyberarm? 

[ZeldaBravo]

My take on skills.
Group close combat 4
Group Stealth 3
Group Athletics 3
Armorer 4
Negotiation (diplomacy) 3 (+2)
Etiquette 4
Con (fast talk) 3 (+2)
Heavy weapons (grenade launchers) 3(+2)
Demolitions (improvised explosives) 1 (+2)
Perception (visual) 6 (+2)
Automatics (assault rifles or smg - your choice) 6 (+2)
Intimidation 3
First aid 3
Thrown weapons (non aerodynamic) 3 (+2)
Drive ground vehicle 1 - buy for 2 karma.

Weapons - ares alpha, ingram smartgun x, ares crusader II, shock glove, combat knife, stun baton, grenades, explosives.
Attributes
B 3
A 6 (7)
R 4 (5)
S 2 (3)
W 3
I 4
L 3
C 3
Initiative 8 (9)+2d6
Limits
P 5, S 4, M 5
Condition monitor 10/10

Augmentations:
Bone lacing, plastic (alpha) ¥9600, 0,4 ess.
Smartlink ¥4000, 0,2 ess.
Datajack, alpha ¥1200, 0,08 ess.
Wired reflexes 1, alpha ¥46800, 1,6 ess.
Muscle replacement 1, alpha, ¥30000, 0,8 ess.

I didn't overoptimise this one, just made her (kinda) well rounded and versatile. You can change skills to group firearms 6, athletics 2, stealth 2 and unarmed 6 (+2) instead of automatics 6 (+2) and grab more guns for more 'walking arsenal' feel.

[Medicineman]

Also, a final question, I found several articles that say that 5th edition is a lot worse than 4th edition. Any opinions on that?

ouuuh, thats a hot subject worth it's own Thread (which has been done several times ) to be discussed there

Hello, I am Saithor, and I am a complete noob at this game.

Hello Saithor
Don't worry we all were once Noobs( sometimes, a long time ago )

I thought the Weapon Specialist was cool, a tough as nails ex-soldier with a plethora of weapons.

he IS cool,
but ( as previuos mentioned) I'd advise You to recreate the Weapon specialist as an Adept (also cool and (ImO) easy to play for newbs)

with an esay Dance
Medicineman

[Blazrath]

Figured I throw my hat and do a Rambo like character just for fun.

Attributes
B 5 (8 for damage only)
A 5 (
R 4
S 5
W 3
I 3
L 2
C 2

Edge 5, Essence 4.05, M 0
Initiative: 7+1d6

Positive Qualities: Natural Athlete, Toughness
Negative Qualities: Code of Honor(No Civilians), Social Stress

Skills
Athletics Group 4, Outdoors 6, Blades 6 (+2 Knives), Unarmed 6, Automatics 6, Heavy 6 (+2 LMG), Sneaking 6, Escape Artist 2, Perception 4, Armorer 4, Demolitions 4, Intimidate 3, Pistol 2, Pilot Ground Craft 2

Combat Tactics 2, Firearms 3, Military 3, English N, Korean 2

Augmentations:
Right Lower Arm Customized(+2 Agility, +1 Strength) 25,000
 -Cyber Machine Pistol (External Clip Port) 7 Capacity, 4,500
 -Agility Increase (+3) 19,500
Bone Density (3) 15,000
Muscle Augmentation (1) 31,000
Eyes (Smartlink, Lowlight, Image Link, Flare Compensation All Alphaware) 9,000

Weapons
Cyber Machine Pistol (Acc 4/6, 6P, AP 0, SA/ BF, RC 1, Ammo 18m/ 32c)
     -Full Clip in Pistol, 2 External Clips 1,640
Ingram Vallant (Acc 5/6. 9P, AP -2, BF/FA, RC 2/3, Ammo 50c/ 100 Belt) 5,800
     -2 Full Clips 2,000
Ares Monosword (Acc 5, Reach 1, (Str+3)P, AP -3) 900
Survival Knife (Acc 5, Str +2)P, AP -1) 100
Punching (Str+2)P

Vehicle
Dodge Dakota (Throwback style, stats same as Toyota Gopher) 25,000

Gear
Lined Coat 900
Clothing (100x3) 300
Ballistic Mask (Customized, Respirator rating 4) 500
Hermes Ikon 3,000
Sub-vocal Mic 50
Kit (Armorer) 500
Survival Kit 200
Cred Stick (Standard) 5
Flashlight 25
Fake SIN Rating 4 10,000
Fake License 4 (Driving) 800
Fake License 4 (Augmentations) 800
Fake License 4 (Cyber Gun) 800
Fake License 4 (Sword) 800

Life Style:
Squatter (1 Month)

Contacts:
Fixer: 4, 2

Left Over Money: 2,120
Karma Expenditure: Positive -12, Negative +23, -10 for 20,000, -12 for Intimidate 3, -6 for Pistol 2, -6 for Pilot Ground Craft 2
Left Over Karma: 2

Is he perfect? Hell no. But he should be fun.

[saithor]

Ok, thanks for all of the quick replies. It's a little disappointing that she doesn't start out very good. Some questions I have
One
1. Should I focus on only one set of weapon skills, such as Pistol or Long-arm? And what non-combat skills are the most important ones?
2. Looking over the characters you guys suggested, which stats would you guys suggest the most? I see a Iot of improved Reactions and Agilitys.
3. Weapons: really would like a healthy stable, but at least the Ares Alpha and the Ares Sniper Rifle if it's possible to have an effective character with those two together.
Augmentations: I'm seeing a lot of Cyber-eyes and cyber-arms, any other suggested Augmeuntations?
Other gear: What are the must-haves for this type of character?

Also, I am still reading through the rulebook. It's pretty long.

[ZeldaBravo]

1. Completely up to you. Both options are viable. It is good to have a gun for any situation, but you cannot carry all of your guns with you all the time.
2. High agility means you move around fast and have a good aim. High initiative means you act first and can perform more actions, that's why reaction and intuition are important too. Intuition also lets you spot hidden foes, speak foreign languages with relative ease and so on. Those three are the most important stats for a shooter.
3. Yes it is possible.
Augmentations: cybereyes are neat but cost about x5-10 more than googles with the same enhancements. Cyberarms are mostly there because the original archetype has one. In most cases fighty characters are better with their meat arms because they have nice physical attributes already. You've already seen my recommendations in my previous post.
Must haves? A fake SIN and licences.

[Medicineman]

And what non-combat skills are the most important ones?

Perception, Stealth, Etiquette
also important
Acrobatics,running,swimming,palming, Negotiating, first Aid

Hough!
Medicineman

[Marcus]

1. Should I focus on only one set of weapon skills, such as Pistol or Long-arm? And what non-combat skills are the most important ones?
I agree with Medicineman, minimums are Perception, Sneak, and Etiquette. After that its more open to discussion, all the ones he listed are solid Gymnastics, running, First aid, con would be my suggestions.

2. Looking over the characters you guys suggested, which stats would you guys suggest the most? I see a Iot of improved Reactions and Agilitys.
It totally depends on your build. But if you are going hit things, with weapons, Agility is a must, if your going to have decent init, you need reaction, and intuition, and if your going to stay alive, Body and Will, are important. That Leave Str, Log, and Cha. Strength is really only key if you need a good Phyical limit and/or intend to use melee. Log, has its uses, but is role specific, cha is always improtant to some extent, cause you need talk with people, but if you have let some things go, those are the three to look at. They all still have good uses.

3. Weapons: really would like a healthy stable, but at least the Ares Alpha and the Ares Sniper Rifle if it's possible to have an effective character with those two together.
Augmentations: I'm seeing a lot of Cyber-eyes and cyber-arms, any other suggested Augmeuntations?
Other gear: What are the must-haves for this type of character?
Cyber-eyes are popular for smart links and vision type, when it comes to shooting stuff those are what you need.

Arms are an easy way for certain purpose to overcome a low stat, there are issues, make sure you read the cyberlimb section thoroughly, its kinda complicated.

For init, you need ether wired reflex + reaction enchancers if you have E to burn, or Synaptic Booster if you have and wanna hold on to E.

Ok keep in mind 2 things concealablity, and legality code. The Alpha is great gun, but it clocks in at 11F, F as I'm sure you are aware is forbidden. You can't get caught carrying F gear. So if you have one those make damn sure its hidden somewhere well, and by somewhere I don't mean your armored coat. Which leads to concealability, as the open carry nuts have shown, you can't really hide long arm or even carbine on your person easily
 The Desert Strike is also an F so if your carrying that stuff around its in a smuggling compartment in your van or car or something.
Brings the heavy stuff can also be dangerous, FA can be a pain in the butt, its certainly how uninted collateral damage gets done.

My favorite weapon weapon for a 2 editions now has been the Crusader Machine Pistol, it doesn't have quite the same stopping power as the heavy stuff, but with a 40 shot clip, a decent damage code and a burst setting it gets the job done, especially if your packing Narojets, or Stick-n-Shocks. We went most of a season of missions on 1 40 shot clip.

[saithor]

Ok, the concealment issue definitely sucks, is there any way to use the guns at all, or is any attempt to use them not worth the effort?

For Augmeuntations, if I get this right the Cybereyes and arms are not really needed as long as you have the goggles to replace the Cybereyes.

I'm still going through the rulebook, will start posting the things I'm thinking of trying once I get through. For right now what I'm trying to determine Priorities. I know that magic is definitely going to be E and that Money will probably be C, as that's what I'm seeing a lot, correct me if thats wrong.

[Marcus]

Ok, the concealment issue definitely sucks, is there any way to use the guns at all, or is any attempt to use them not worth the effort?

Stick with weapons that legality code R or lower. Then have the fake licences.

For Augmeuntations, if I get this right the Cybereyes and arms are not really needed as long as you have the goggles to replace the Cybereyes.

Smartlink that are paid for with essence give you more effect, specifically, a wireless active, implanted smartlink gives you +2 Pool on ranged attacks in addition to the 2 accuracy, the downside to wireless active you vulnerable to matrix attack. Non-essence costing smartlink only give 1 bonus die. Otherwise goggles will do the job.

I'm still going through the rulebook, will start posting the things I'm thinking of trying once I get through. For right now what I'm trying to determine Priorities. I know that magic is definitely going to be E and that Money will probably be C, as that's what I'm seeing a lot, correct me if thats wrong.

There isn't a wrong or right way to build. There more efficient ways to achieve goals in some cases. A lot of folks who go tech like to go E magic, D Human (3) (which gives your character 5 edge), Then play around with A B and C in vary combinations of cash, attributes and skills.

I would be very careful of Skill priority A in my experience its a choice a lot of folk make and often come to regret. 

[saithor]

Ok, I will keep the Priorities in mind. One other question I do have is wether or not the Run&Gun Expansion is worth picking up? I don't know about the wireless thing, as I have heard that Wireless hacking gear is pretty common, and I'd really hate for it to go offline, but then again, extra +1 is aways good. Is it at least worth getting a forbidden weapon for the situations that I can use it in? Is there any chance of being able to smuggle it?

Edit: Why are half the weapons in her weapons profile forbidden? why? I  spent a couple of hours falling in love with the character and plethora of weapons, only to find out that I'd hardly be able to use any of them.