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crazy shooting combat damage - understanding the math..

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voydangel

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« Reply #15 on: <11-27-10/1400:25> »
So how does one reliably get over 20dmg then?
There really is no reliable way to get 20+ DV with a single attack.
Any weapon fired in full-auto with awesome dicepool(20+) does 20+ damage quite reliably.
With a dicepool 21 dice you get on avarage 7 hits combined with the +9DV for full auto gets us to DV of 16 meaning even a machine pistol loaded with standard rounds do 20 points of damage.
Get a bigger gun and better ammo and your doing 20+ damage quite reliably.

As above, I don't know if I could call needing to rely on rolling a 21+ dice pool reliable.
If i have around 25 dice for shooting, then i get to roll 21+ dice pretty damm reliably.
I can't see how you can claim it not being reliable if i have the dicepool requiered to get that amount of hits every time(on avarege)
Also that 21 die pool was only needed to boost a machine pistols damage to 20.
Assault rifle loaded with Ex-Ex has a base damage of 7P, with that you need a much more modest number of net hits, 4 to be exact, to reach DV 20 using full-auto.

In order to get 25 dice, you would need capped Agi (about 10 sounds like most peoples agreed upon max - assuming you're an elf), a 10 skill, which means getting a natural 7 and then being an adept to up it by 3 (are there any other ways besides magic to get a direct skill increase?) to 10, and then have smartlink and a specialization. that gets us to 24. I guess my point is this: that's really really rare, and the way you are mentioning it makes it sound as though it is implied that almost every starting character should have this 25ish dice pool to shooting. I'm not arguing with your point, you are correct - if you have 21+ dice pool, then getting 6 or 7 hits is reliable - but having a 21+ dice pool for shooting is exceptionally rare IMO.
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Mäx

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« Reply #16 on: <11-27-10/1439:46> »
In order to get 25 dice, you would need capped Agi (about 10 sounds like most peoples agreed upon max - assuming you're an elf), a 10 skill, which means getting a natural 7 and then being an adept to up it by 3 (are there any other ways besides magic to get a direct skill increase?) to 10, and then have smartlink and a specialization. that gets us to 24. I guess my point is this: that's really really rare, and the way you are mentioning it makes it sound as though it is implied that almost every starting character should have this 25ish dice pool to shooting. I'm not arguing with your point, you are correct - if you have 21+ dice pool, then getting 6 or 7 hits is reliable - but having a 21+ dice pool for shooting is exceptionally rare IMO.
Huh, if your an Elf then Agility caps at 15, well 14 in chargen.
Also did you completely miss the part where i pointed out that you only need the 21 die shooting pool to reach 20DV with full-auto if your gun is machine pistol loaded with regular ammo.
Using an SMG drops that into 18 dice and assault rifle drops it to 15 which is IMO pretty much the minimum dicepool for a combat character relying on guns.
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Nomad Zophiel

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« Reply #17 on: <11-27-10/1556:55> »

Huh, if your an Elf then Agility caps at 15, well 14 in chargen.


Huh? 10 unless you buy any of the Qualities that increase maximum Agi. 15 if your an Exceptional Elf Changeling with Metagenic Attribute AND Genetic Optimization (which can be done for 30 BP in qualities and 9 in cash). Actually buying that character's agility up to 14 will cost you 100 BP, though and that 15th point will cost another 25. Going from AGI 3-9 costs 60. Another 25 for 9-10. Restricted gear will let you have Muscle Replacement or Toner at 4 and the other at 2. Assuming you want the essence savings, its 42,000 ny or about 8 BP. You're also one of maybe two people in the world capable of that.

Now a firearms dice pool of 15, sure. With nothing special at all, anyone can start from a 10 and get a smartlink for 2.
« Last Edit: <11-27-10/1641:36> by nomadzophiel »

voydangel

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« Reply #18 on: <11-27-10/1612:33> »
Huh, if your an Elf then Agility caps at 15, well 14 in chargen.
Also did you completely miss the part where i pointed out that you only need the 21 die shooting pool to reach 20DV with full-auto if your gun is machine pistol loaded with regular ammo.
Using an SMG drops that into 18 dice and assault rifle drops it to 15 which is IMO pretty much the minimum dicepool for a combat character relying on guns.

No, I caught all that, but that is not really relevant to my point which is that getting 21+ dice to hit with is pretty far out there. I'm not saying you're wrong about being possible to get that dice pool, I'm just saying it's not easy, can't be done at character creation and shouldn't be considered standard by any means.

And as nomadzophiel pointed out, and I mentioned earlier, 10 is the AGI cap for an elf at character creation unless you spend way more than 35BP on positive qualities to up your cap, and then dump even more into AGI to raise the attributes rating.

I'm curious how you are getting a "minimum dice pool" of 15 for any combat character relying on guns. At character creation a 15 dice pool is pretty damn close to the maximum you can get (I believe 17 is the hard cap without using positive qualities), so IMO, it can hardly be viewed as the minimum to be effective.

I would be happy to cede my position if you can back up your claims with some raw data (character build for starters).
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Mäx

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« Reply #19 on: <11-27-10/1618:18> »

Huh, if your an Elf then Agility caps at 15, well 14 in chargen.


Huh? 10 unless you buy any of the Qualities that increase maximum Agi. 15 if your an Exceptional Elf Changeling with Metagenic Attribute AND Genetic Optimization (which can be done for 30 BP in qualities and 9 in cash). Actually buying that character's agility up to 14 will cost you 100 BP, though and that 15th point will cost another 25.
Yes to be able to reach that max you need everythink that raises the max.
In chargen the 14 Agility cost 35BP in qualities 85BP in attributes and 16BP in recourses and also 1 point of essence, the last point costs 45k nuyen and 0,7 essence in game.
Or alternatively the same 35BP in qualities and 85BP in attributes at chargen for 10 agility and mage team mate willing to sustain a force 10 Inreace Aglity on you with 5 successes.

As for a char build, my normal combat build has 7-9 Agility 4-5+ spec as skill for gun(s) she will mostly be using and ofcource the guns are smartlinked.
Going with the low values thats 7+4+2+2 = 15 dice
« Last Edit: <11-27-10/1622:28> by Mäx »
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Nomad Zophiel

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« Reply #20 on: <11-27-10/1646:18> »
And if you want to spend half your BP on that, more power to you. Now a dice pool of 15+ isn't a big deal. 5 Attribute, 4 Ability, Smartlink, specialization and Tacnet software will get you to 17. Its not too incredible to get to 20+ from there with some minor work.

Mäx

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« Reply #21 on: <11-29-10/1221:29> »
No, I caught all that, but that is not really relevant to my point which is that getting 21+ dice to hit with is pretty far out there. I'm not saying you're wrong about being possible to get that dice pool, I'm just saying it's not easy, can't be done at character creation and shouldn't be considered standard by any means.

I'm curious how you are getting a "minimum dice pool" of 15 for any combat character relying on guns. At character creation a 15 dice pool is pretty damn close to the maximum you can get (I believe 17 is the hard cap without using positive qualities), so IMO, it can hardly be viewed as the minimum to be effective.
Are you really this ingnorant of the game system you playing.
Max in chargen without qualities is:
Agility 9(elf with maxed agility and muscle toner 2)
Skill 6
Spec for the skill (2)
Reflex Recorder for the skill
Smartlink (2)
Tac-net 2
9+6+2+1+2+2=22 , oh look at that over 21 dice for shooting a gun in chargen without using any qualities, so what where you saying about it being not possible in chargen ;)
And as nothing actually forbids as from using qualities, we can pick-up some easy extra dies to either boost the pool even higher or to subside some of the more expensive dice sources in that no qualities build.
Some of the cheapest are:
1)Getting Adept and picking up improved combat ability 3 for the chosen gun skill and obviliously dropping the reflex recorder
2)Getting restricted gear and upping the muscle toners rating to 4
3)Getting restricted gear and taking suprathyroid gland, yeah its not really cheap but the fact that it also raises your Body is pretty damm good for any combat character
4)Getting restricted gear and raising the tac-nets rating to 4, ofcource this only helps if everyone in the team does this and has enought sensor channenls to contribute, so better to pick this up down the road in.game.

So as you can see 21 dice is quite easy in chargen, you don't even have to be an elf.
And 15 dice is ofcource even easier and is somethink i seriously except every actual combat character to have as a bare minimum to dinfrentiate them from the non-combat members of the team.
After all 10+ dice is quite simple for even the non combatants to get:
Smartlink 2
spec 2
and then 6+ dice from skill+agility.
"An it harm none, do what you will"

voydangel

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« Reply #22 on: <11-29-10/1656:49> »
Are you really this ingnorant of the game system you playing.
No need to start in with personal attacks.

Max in chargen without qualities is: ... 22
...
So as you can see 21 dice is quite easy in chargen, you don't even have to be an elf.
...
I edited out the snippy bits.

Yes, you're correct, you can get that at chargen. You have refuted one very small part of my post, I apologize for not remembering how to min/max a gun bunny off the top of my head.

However, my point is that I don't understand why you consider that kind of min-maxing to be necessary for a character to be effective.
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Nomad Zophiel

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« Reply #23 on: <11-29-10/1706:43> »
I can't speak for Max but when you're talking about a base dice pool of 10 plus modifiers (call it 14 dice total) you're not overly min-maxed. That's something any starting character can manage in anything. Anyone who relies on Agility or Initiative is capable of competing in that range even if they're not gun-fu masters.

voydangel

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« Reply #24 on: <11-29-10/1709:08> »
I agree, but I'm not calling the guys with 10-14 dice min-maxed, I'm referring to the guys with 21+ dice.

Anyway, at this point, I don't really care either way, I think the point of the thread is getting lost in the minutia of a particular point, which isn't really helping anyone. So as far as I'm concerned, I'd be more than happy to just chalk it up to differences in play style and move on...  :)
« Last Edit: <11-29-10/1712:32> by voydangel »
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Mäx

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« Reply #25 on: <11-29-10/1722:23> »
However, my point is that I don't understand why you consider that kind of min-maxing to be necessary for a character to be effective.
I quess i have to repost the actually relevan part of the post you completdly ingnored
"And 15 dice is ofcource even easier and is somethink i seriously except every actual combat character to have as a bare minimum to dinfrentiate them from the non-combat members of the team.
After all 10+ dice is quite simple for even the non combatants to get:
Smartlink 2
spec 2
and then 6+ dice from skill+agility."
So no i don't think getting 20+ dice is nessecary, that part was just to show you that it's very easily possible, mostly because you where claiming 15 to be almost max.

Also, sorry if you took that first sentence as an personal attack, it was just an honest question based on your previous post in the thread.
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voydangel

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« Reply #26 on: <11-29-10/1840:13> »
...
So no i don't think getting 20+ dice is nessecary, that part was just to show you that it's very easily possible, mostly because you where claiming 15 to be almost max.
...

Note taken, I honestly didn't catch this part of the post, my bad.  :P
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Nomad Zophiel

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« Reply #27 on: <11-29-10/1847:02> »
I agree, but I'm not calling the guys with 10-14 dice min-maxed, I'm referring to the guys with 21+ dice.

Anyway, at this point, I don't really care either way, I think the point of the thread is getting lost in the minutia of a particular point, which isn't really helping anyone. So as far as I'm concerned, I'd be more than happy to just chalk it up to differences in play style and move on...  :)

Well, I think the original point was that 20+ damage is fairly easy to achieve. 10+ base Attribute+Ability pool will generate 14 dice with spec and smartlink. If you hit at all with a full burst, the base damage with an assault rifle or LMG (6P) is 15. That's going to kill an opponent with 12 armor and 6 body more than half the time on its own.

Take the extra damage called shot for -4 to hit, +4 damage and the base is 19, but don't do this without enough recoil compensation to hit the guy. Add recoil compensation and you get more hit dice on a 1:1 basis. On average a Gas Vent 3 will make the damage 20. That's all based on 22 BP in skills, half a BP in gear and an attribute you were probably going to buy to 5 anyway.

So yes, its reasonable for any character for whom combat is a secondary priority to do 20+ damage consistently and for true gun bunnies to do more. The utility of doing so is largely situational, though. Againt most many enemies its complete overkill. Against Mr. Armor Tank its going to put a serious damper on his day. Its really just another example of whoever shoots first winning. See spellcasting, Commanding Voice and SNS debates elsewhere for other examples. Most Many characters are not going to leave someone standing if they score a good hit.