Shadowrun
Catalyst Game Labs => Errata => Topic started by: PiXeL01 on <06-05-16/1828:00>
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It appears all semi-official statements about them are just to keep people hooked and buying in hopes of corrections while all the money is funneled elsewhere especially to semi-new material which is also in need of Erratas.
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Sadly you don't seem wrong since street grimoire errata was supposed to come out almost two months ago. I just keep looking for the freelancers and missions crew to keep the lights on.
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Faced.
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Hope dies last?
(MInd you, I've been playing for less than a year, so I have not awaited much as you)
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It's been over two years since the last official Errata update. Twenty-eight months a week from now, if I remember correctly.
There's been multiple Errata announcements that have fallen through (which is almost a worse faux pas than no errata in my opinion; I'd rather have no promises made than promises broken).
We've also got someone saying no price charts was a feature instead of a bug, showing they can't even fess up to their own mistakes.
At least we've got some awesome writers/Catalyst people who try and support the products as best they can. Wakshaani, Crimsondude, Critias, Patrick Goodman, Bull, the other good peoples. Thanks for your support.
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Usually I am not one to lose hope (too naive perhaps), nor one to throw logs into the raging flames.
But this has reached a point where nothing said or heard can be trusted. It makes me feel bad for the messenger really.
I loudly applaud the writers' support and dedication to their work. It just makes my heart bleed that nothing is seemingly done to salvage the situation at the top, where actions truly matter.
I wish I could go to the US cons and ask about the Erratas to their faces and be relentless about it so they can't evade answering that question ...
I love Shadowrun, I truly do ... So help it float instead of sink
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since the End of the 4A Edition I got used to add Houserules.
And since 5th Ed I regard them as more valuable than RAW
I either use Houserules or use modified SR4A Rules.
One Campaign (2055 to Replay all the oldschool Runs ) is basically mixture of SR4A & SR5 Rules.
No other Edition was in such a need for Houserules than this one !
HougH!
Medicineman
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No other Edition was in such a need for Houserules than this one !
I think that's the point. It seems Catalyst is a publisher of fiction first and rules second. I suspect they may be trying to get out of the game business all together and go all in on fiction. Even the rule books are 50+% fiction and the crunch is incomplete, error ridden, and in many cases poorly considered. It's little more than a vehicle for their fiction, and a broken down Jalopy at that.
So, they want to do the world building and leave the rules to the players. The only reason the rules get any love is because part of their advertising effort is the Missions play and that needs an agreed upon structure to work. Home players are on their own. Basically, Missions FAQ is as close to errata as we'll get.
Sadly (happily?) the world is amazing and gripping. I don't dislike the fiction, but I really want to play in it, so instead of just walking away like we all probably should, I stick with it like you and houserule the hell out of it to make it work. I really wish that a game maker would get their hands on the IP. Paizo or even TSR/Wizards could make it stellar, and I'm sure there are any number of other games workshops (see what I did there?) that could do it justice.
Disclaimer: None of this is fact, though I personally consider it to be. All others should consider it to merely be my opinion. I truly believe there are good people at Catalyst working on this and we regularly hear form them on the boards, but it is disappointingly mismanaged at the top (as was mentioned earlier) and no matter how well the seamen work they are all doomed to fail if the helmsman sends them the wrong way. Or something. I suck at analogies.
Okay, I think I'm good for another few months before I need to vent over the sorry state of the game again. Cheerio!
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>>> It seems Catalyst is a publisher of fiction first and rules second.
....
Battletech ? ;)
>>> Even the rule books are 50+% fiction and the crunch is incomplete,
it's easier and not so time intensive to write Fiction than to create functioning Rules
>>>> Basically, Missions FAQ is as close to errata as we'll get.
only for You US Guys .
Here in Germany the Pegasus books are more of an Erratta than the Missions FAQ
Most players I know use the Rulebooks and I know of not even one that uses the Missions FAQ .
>>> Paizo or even TSR/Wizards could make it stellar, and I'm sure there are any number of other games workshops (see what I did there?) that could do it justice.
Look beyond the US Companies ;)
(did I tell You that I'm a big fan of Pegasus ? :D )
>>> I truly believe there are good people at Catalyst working on this and we regularly hear form them on the boards,
fully correct
I wrote that before and I'll write it again.
I'm totally on the side of the Freelancer
He who dances Shoulder to Shoulder with the Freelancer
Medicineman
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Yeah, house-rules are the way to go. I estimate I'd need to write at about 50 pages of them to make Shadowrun functional at my table, which is why I've not done it. I don't have the time or the players to dedicate to such an undertaking; the one group I know who've thought about playing Shadowrun said 'probably not' when I described the state of 5th Edition.
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I introduced SR5 to a number of new players here in Japan, and they have giving up learning the rules, relying on me to teach them what is necessary. That does give me an amount of leeway into what to use and what not to use, which ends up with us being very loose with the rules.
But still this should not be necessary.
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Looking over at Battletech it seems to me that Catalyst can do errata so there must be a problem with the shadowrun line or something.
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Comments like this is what worries me deeply. It gives the impression that SR is just the scheme to fund Battletech.
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Comments like this is what worries me deeply. It gives the impression that SR is just the scheme to fund Battletech.
Granted Battletech is a LOT better at errata but that has a lot to do with the fact they organized a volunteer system to do the lion's share of the work. They just released a whole new round of errata for all their core rule books just this week. The only exception is the Alpha Strike Companion and it should have errata within a couple weeks.
Like I've said before, SR could duplicate BT's success in this area if they chose too. It's only speculation on my part but the only reason I can see that they don't is that they just don't want to relinquish even the smallest amount of control over the dev process.
Equally important to regular releases of errata would be a formalized rules question forum. On the BT side they have separate sub-forums for each core rule book. If you have a question you create a thread in the appropriate forum and ask your question. The only people that can post to that thread is the person that created it and those devs that are authorized to answer questions. It may take a while to get an answer to a tough question especially if the answer ends up spawning errata but generally you do get an answer sooner or later.
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It's always best to judge people by their actions and not their words.
And Catalyst's actions speak very loudly.
1). The company owner spends all his time with battletech and has left Srun to a second stringer to manage and her could care less (otherwise Randall would have posted/ responded/ got involve with fixing things by now).
2). It's clear that Catalyst's Srun process is broken and has been for a long time. It could have easily been fixed by now by any competent manager. The fact that it has not is clear evidence of either lack of talent or lack of will.
3). Catalyst could easily have resolved the ongoing customer satisfaction problems by issuing errata. They've had years now. The fact that they haven't conveys the message that they really don't care at all about their customers. We are only money to them.
4). Catalyst has an addiction to fiction as it's easier to write and shovel into a book/ supplement/ etc. You can see the line editor spending time writing srun novels rather than you know, doing his job. He could have easily taken the time he spent on ONE of those books to get errata out for ALL the srun rules books. The fact that he did not indicates that he could care less, he wants to write fiction and he will dammit!
So given all of the above how can you continue to buy product from a company that could care less about you as a customer?
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It's always best to judge people by their actions and not their words.
And Catalyst's actions speak very loudly.
1). The company owner spends all his time with battletech and has left Srun to a second stringer to manage and her could care less (otherwise Randall would have posted/ responded/ got involve with fixing things by now).
2). It's clear that Catalyst's Srun process is broken and has been for a long time. It could have easily been fixed by now by any competent manager. The fact that it has not is clear evidence of either lack of talent or lack of will.
3). Catalyst could easily have resolved the ongoing customer satisfaction problems by issuing errata. They've had years now. The fact that they haven't conveys the message that they really don't care at all about their customers. We are only money to them.
4). Catalyst has an addiction to fiction as it's easier to write and shovel into a book/ supplement/ etc. You can see the line editor spending time writing srun novels rather than you know, doing his job. He could have easily taken the time he spent on ONE of those books to get errata out for ALL the srun rules books. The fact that he did not indicates that he could care less, he wants to write fiction and he will dammit!
So given all of the above how can you continue to buy product from a company that could care less about you as a customer?
Well said. Even if what you said isn't true, the problem is that this is what many people feel is the case. Catalyst isn't doing enough to solve it. The freelancers are the only ones we really get any regularly response from, and they can only do much.
Lack of things like small, informal errata and answers is really insulting... The issue isn't that the players can't come up with their own stuff; as people have stated, the errata needed would only take a couple hours for one person at MOST. The issue is that the players shouldn't have to put in work to make the game's rules work. What's the point of buying the game if you may as well just come up with the system on your own, for all the work you'd have to do to fix it? It's like trying to sell someone a totaled car-- It just isn't worth it.
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It's always best to judge people by their actions and not their words.
And Catalyst's actions speak very loudly.
1). The company owner spends all his time with battletech and has left Srun to a second stringer to manage and her could care less (otherwise Randall would have posted/ responded/ got involve with fixing things by now).
2). It's clear that Catalyst's Srun process is broken and has been for a long time. It could have easily been fixed by now by any competent manager. The fact that it has not is clear evidence of either lack of talent or lack of will.
3). Catalyst could easily have resolved the ongoing customer satisfaction problems by issuing errata. They've had years now. The fact that they haven't conveys the message that they really don't care at all about their customers. We are only money to them.
4). Catalyst has an addiction to fiction as it's easier to write and shovel into a book/ supplement/ etc. You can see the line editor spending time writing srun novels rather than you know, doing his job. He could have easily taken the time he spent on ONE of those books to get errata out for ALL the srun rules books. The fact that he did not indicates that he could care less, he wants to write fiction and he will dammit!
So given all of the above how can you continue to buy product from a company that could care less about you as a customer?
ok, well I can not (or at least not truly willing to) respond directly to most of what you posted ... but one thing I can respond to ...
1). is completely false ... the owner (which is not Randall btw since your post seems to imply that) does not spend anymore time on Battletech than he does Shadowrun. In fact he has so many irons in the fire that he can not spend very much time on any one thing at a time
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Ok well replace Randall with *whomever* and the point still stands.
Battletech is managed *far* better than Srun is.
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Ok well replace Randall with *whomever* and the point still stands.
Battletech is managed *far* better than Srun is.
I agree with this BUT since we don't know how CGL is internally structured railing at the company as a whole is a waste of time not to mention wild speculation. Last I heard the company was a partnership between several people though again I couldn't tell you what the power structure might be like. Such is a privately owned company.
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We actually have proof that Jason Hardy reads the forums as he sent a private message in response to someone threatening to stop buying SR (Howling Shadows, same sub forum), where he stated that some of the things players found lacking in said product was not part of his vision for the game world.
So what is his vision then? Not a game world but only a setting to be writing fiction about, where crouch and rules are a major inconvenience just conjured into a first draft state then published without editing?
I really would like to know the reason for him to blatantly and adamantly ignoring the ever growing call for errata other than the lack obvious lack of instant profit.
Errata might not generate profit by itself but it would rebuild some of the trust and then players would like to introduce new players into the system. As it is now on other forums SR comes up as a setting people want to play but won't because of the state of it.
So please do something to save it. Don't just ride it like a cash cow
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>>> So what is his vision then? Not a game world but only a setting to be writing fiction about, where crouch and rules are a major inconvenience just conjured into a first draft state then published without editing?
I really would like to know the reason for him to blatantly and adamantly ignoring the ever growing call for errata other than the lack obvious lack of instant profit.
I guess you're right about that
And I also guess that is one of the (main ?) Reasons for SR Anarchy (apart from making Money which is inherently not a bad Idea)
I get the Impression tha Mr. Hardy has a lot of other things to do ( like supervising the new Products, etc) and most of teh Products are from Freelancers that volunteer for a certain Product (like the Seelie Court Book f.E.)
and if no Freelancer volunteers for Erratta, than... no one will do it(? but that is just an outsider's guess based only on what I read from Forums)
>>> Errata might not generate profit by itself but it would rebuild some of the trust
That is correct, BUT they must be done by somebody who knows the actual rules ;)
and since I'm used on making Houserules I'd rather stick to my/our Houserules than Erratta from someone who doesn't know the Rules
HokaHey
Medicineman
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Most damming of all there's been two promises that Street Grimiore errata is just around the corner... with nothing actually happening that's viable at a player level.
Really sad that I had to give up on a game I've been wanting to play/GM for so long because of this kind of thing.
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Catalyst Game Labs is a subsidary of InMediaRes.
InMediaRes is a private company founded by Loren and Heather Coleman, Tara and Randal Bills, Philip DeLuca.
Heather Coleman serves as IMR's executive manager, while Loren is the submissions editor for BattleCorps.
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Found all that out in 3 minutes. Where Mr. Hardy fits into all this and what he is responsible for, I have no idea....But to me, it looks like he answers to someone....
(And that is NOT a bunch of people on these forums!)
And threats? Really? REALLY?!?
you know threats are a waste of time. Especially if you don't follow through on them. It just makes you look like a bunch of whiny brats. (Oh, wait.... i forgot where I was!)
Pro tip to thise who leveled threats. Man up and walk away like you said you were. IF you have walked away, then you have no reason to continue to post.... as you have walked away!!
And IF you have walked away, then why are you still posting???
"Hate everything I do, yet you wait on every word or action? Bitch, you're a Fan!" - random internet meme
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Man up and walk away like you said you were. IF you have walked away, then you have no reason to continue to post.... as you have walked away!!
Half of a false dichotomy, imo. Deciding to cease buying product doesn't mean one must also get rid of their previous purchases and cease any possible contact with the community. I guess that's common when they're frustrated enough, but people can be ok with their current shelf, homebrew, or know people who still purchase.
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Yeah, I have to disagree with you there, Reaver. I've sworn off buying any and all new Shadowrun products (I did so months ago, actually, and it isn't a 'threat,' I stopped purchasing all Catalyst products). But I'm still around, mostly because I have a caveat; if Catalyst can get their act together and actually fix the products they've already produced while maintaining a higher standard with their new materials, I will start purchasing their books again. I can't really pay attention to whether or not things are getting fixed if I'm not around to check, can I?
I love the Shadowrun setting; it is flat-out my favorite RPG setting of all time. I can't get enough of it. I have a shit-ton of the books in PDF, all purchased because I wanted my money to support the products I enjoy. I don't want to walk away from the decades of history this amazing game has. That said, the system and mechanics have been getting kicked in the stomach repeatedly over the last few years. I'm not letting Catalyst's mediocre treatment of the system and certain aspects of the setting to ruin the rest for me, even if I won't pay them to continue messing it up. Sure, my hopes that they'll actually fix things are at an all-time low (they seem to think leaving the current rules unfixed while releasing a new Rules-Lite version is a good idea, and yet again they've promised errata that is now months overdue); but I can keep going for a while longer.
In the end, if the things I want don't happen I'm going to walk away (at least until Catalyst loses Shadowrun from mismanagement). I'll take the current rules and eventually apply my own fixes and adjustments, making a comprehensive home-errata so I can share the love of Shadowrun I have with local players who are leery of playing explicitly because of everything they've heard about the rules in 5th Edition (yes, people in my area refuse to play because of the current situation).
All of the problems do make me wonder if the rumor I heard from a friend is true, though... I have no way of verifying it, and neither did they, but according to what they heard there is a deep-pocketed backer of Shadowrun who provides a significant amount of funding to Catalyst to produce Shadowrun products; they use this funding as a means of influence on the setting. I mean, the initial implementation of CFD sort of fits the bill of a cliched person without a clue going 'I want zombies! With nanites! And everyone is at risk! And there's no way to cure it!'
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All of the problems do make me wonder if the rumor I heard from a friend is true, though... I have no way of verifying it, and neither did they, but according to what they heard there is a deep-pocketed backer of Shadowrun who provides a significant amount of funding to Catalyst to produce Shadowrun products; they use this funding as a means of influence on the setting. I mean, the initial implementation of CFD sort of fits the bill of a cliched person without a clue going 'I want zombies! With nanites! And everyone is at risk! And there's no way to cure it!'
Just on this, I truly doubt there's any truth to this rumour.
CFD was originally posited to explain away the occasional Jackpoint comment with no name. This was initially an editing error that was then worked into the setting, all during 4th Ed and finally leading to the comments being attributed to FastJack's new persona.
Any time someone comes up with an unsubstantiated rumour it seems to be another urban fairy tale.
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OP has my full support on this.
I also believe it has come to the point Shadowrun, and Catalyst as a business ,
would be better served if it were to just either sell off the line
or at least hand over the RULES only to the more competent german publisher Pegasus Games,
and give these utter leeway to change the rules as they see fit.
They have done what they could to improve on the product without changing the core,
because not allowed, and added better optional rules.
Or they could sell it to FFG or another big house.
Or even change the business model drastically , and go more crowdfunding , and crowd influencing focused..
There are plenty of options , but the fact is
we urgently need a sort of Shadowrun : 5ixed edition
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This current mix of salt and rumors wonīt make things any better, Iīm afraid :-\
Letīs put it a more suggestive way: Officialy releasing an Errata at least for the more serious problems in the system (no prices and availability for pets in a book that constantly refers to "base costs" of pets, to name something very recent) would probably be worth the effort even from a pure-
businesslike perspective, because it would help you regain some lost trust.
And some trust is lost, thatīs for sure. From what Iīve experienced so far, many of the more casual rounds have fallen back to 4th Edition or to systems that are either maintained better or donīt need that much maintenance because they donīt repeat the same editing mistakes all over again.
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I guess there are several topics mixed together when the state of Shadowrun as a product ist discussed.
1.) The quality of the books published
Contrary to many people here on the forum I think that the quality is quite good. I really like Run Faster and Howling Shadows e.g. and think they are great books. That there are many initial inconsitencies and errors is to be expected, considering the scope of the world an existing rules.
Of course there are some things that should not happen, like the rules on shifters in Run Faster which are incomplete and full of errors. I generally draw the line when I have to houserule at the basics of character creation (like attributes or augmentations).
2.) The design choices in the books
I guess this is the topic where a lot of users confuse a bad product with design choices. Just because you disagree with a design choice does not make the book a bad product.
Examples: I don't like fact that shapeshifters no longer have regeneration. They can still only get deltaware, which is a highly questionable design choice. But it is a design choice. On the other hand, the lack of ruling on the possibility of SURGE with shifters and how to apply it is a lack of quality, especially since both are covered in the same book.
Another example would be the missing animal prices in Howling Shadows (see the other topic). It's a design choice, not an error or bad editing. Same with the heavily criticizied extensive fluff. Like it or don't like it, it's a design choice.
3.) The lack of errata
This is a very, very bad. While I completely understand the impossibility of publishing a flawless book and also know that sometimes seamingly obvious errors can happen, there is no excuse for not publishing errata. In PC game industry every publisher with a reasonable economical survival instinct will publish at least some "hotfixes" asap. While a Pen & Paper never really gets "unplayable" due the possibility of housruling even the worst errors it's still a very serious issue.
4.) The lack of communication
This is worst. Not commuicating on such widely discussed issues as errata can ruin a game and it's community. There is no reason i can think of not to adress some matters officialy by posting in topics, releasing official announcments or else.
It just broadcasts a simple message: We don't care. At all.
Look at Hero Lab. Due to work overload and other reasons they where late in publishing some shadowrun products this year. While they didn't give estimates on release (which is reasonable) they explained why there are problems and reported on the state of the updates. That's enough to show the customer that they care and do their best. They are up to date now btw.
5. Suggestion
IMO there is a viable solution outside of creating "classic" errata. Put up a separate board for each book where everyone can post a specific question in a seperate topic which is officially answered within a week or so.
Now I have the strong suspicion that every ruling has to be approved of by probably a dozen people and goes up and down the chain probably a hundred times which probably takes months even for simple issues. But that's the problem. Give one or several guys the authority to answer the questions independently. Perhaps the answer then does contratdict some hidden design goal. But better a sub-par answer than none at all. As it seems Pegasus in Germany has some leeway to correct errata and even add content, so why not? Of course I have no insight in the internal workings on error control etc. but how should I? No one explains officially where the problem is ...
That post got longer than intended ...
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You're totally wrong about the below as evidenced by the fact that there are cost multipliers and other entrys in the book that reference a base cost.
This was clearly another horrific editing fail that the line editor is trying to CYA after the fact by issuing a fake statement.
Really he dropped the ball entirely, he just doesn't want to take the blame.
Another example would be the missing animal prices in Howling Shadows (see the other topic). It's a design choice, not an error or bad editing. Same with the heavily criticizied extensive fluff. Like it or don't like it, it's a design choice.
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Eh, to address the points you've brought up, I can't say the quality is good when there's this sheer number of inconsistencies and errors. The fiction is generally close to flawless, which is great... But when it comes to basic grammar and editing concerns, it's a huge sink of suck. Then there's the crunch/rules problems, which are almost as bad. When I was writing and editing in a professional setting, I would have been reamed for the errors I've seen if it'd been submitted as a rough draft, much less sent to the final editor. The atrocious editing so far is NOT to be expected given how much these books cost, and saying as much is basically giving them a free pass to do this poorly again and again. I firmly believe almost every error in the books could have been solved if their editing process actually worked.
Making bad 'design choices' is still a bad choice. An error, if you will. And if you believe it's all 'design choices' instead of flat-out being errors and someone lying through their teeth about what it really was to save face... Well, I suggest looking at Howling Shadows for the answer to that. Multiple reference to static price multipliers for buying various special things, but no actual price. When people point that out, one guy goes 'dude, we totally meant to do that... In a world where everything is for sale, you can't just go out and buy a dog or a fish, it has to be done organically, an entire 'run revolving around your desire for a pet, man...' That is so blatantly false that next thing you know, they've said they're writing a basic animal price chart that is compatible with the cost multipliers they already released. Given how late the Street Grimoire errata is going, I'm more inclined to think that announcement was just to appease us until we have something else to get our teeth into. I definitely trust the version a freelancer said they'd work on over the possibility of an official one any day. As far as the shifter thing goes, this is another blatant inconsistency, as in Vladivostok Gauntlet, the shifters both regenerate in the fluff and have the power in the mechanics at the back of the book.
Twenty-eight months since the last errata update, last I checked.
Honestly, I don't think a lack of communication is the worst thing nowadays. I think the communication is worse. Some people wouldn't be so angry about the lack of errata if they'd not announced some was supposed to be released two months ago (I'm not in that boat, that it's been years since any errata has been sent our way is ridiculous; I will still never Kickstart something again because of how Onyx Path handled Exalted 3rd Edition). If Catalyst just shut up completely, they'd probably get less flak. We'd learn to expect it and just go our own routes, rather than have a hope for anything 'official' (which sucks for people whose groups only go by the 'official' rules).
While no-one will say where the process has gone wrong, a heaping pile of it lands on the editor regardless. That person is the one who lets the product go past them to the public. That is where the biggest problem lies. Either they aren't doing their job for whatever reason (a possibility I think grows with every 'we meant to do that' comment) or they can't do their job for whatever reason (people above them pushing deadlines they can't keep up with, horrible direction by people who don't have a clue, lack of experience, etc.).
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the mendacity is obvious and totally transparent.
the lack of care is also obvious and pretty much on par and perhaps even more amazeballs.
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Jason and team are aware of the concerns posted here (and elsewhere in the forums). Unfortunately, I don't have any further updates as to ETA of errata. At present the team is focused on upcoming products slated for GenCon (Shadowrun: Anarchy / Court of Shadows).
I appreciate that this isn't what people (myself included) are wanting to hear, but wanted to provide an update, based on the info I've got.
An aside, I believe they are hoping to have the SG reprint at Origins (this week), so we should be seeing updated PDFs at some point soon.
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Thanks for the info AJ. For me, I'd be ok with skipping court of shadows for errata ;)
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I would like to say thanks for trying to keep us in the loop, AJ. You've been doing pretty well at that, and it is appreciated.
But their awareness really doesn't help if they don't act on it. This whole Shadowrun: Anarchy thing honestly pisses me off at this point; instead of fixing the current rule-set, they've jumped to fiddling around with some Rules-Lite drek? It's preposterous, and a part of why I've been rapidly losing faith in Catalyst. I'm not even sure what an 'Alternate Setting' book for Shadowrun is supposed to be, which is why I'm not letting myself get overly bothered until I hear more. If it's just a take from an alternate perspective/something that isn't usually covered, s'all good. If it is some kind of alternate universe, not related to actual Shadowrun thing, that'll be a problem in my eyes as well.
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Can someone explain what Shadowrun: Anarchy is please?
It sounds like an RPG without rules. If this is the case, I should really point out that is not a good investment for anyone. The purpose of "rules" is to handle possible disputes. You can never cover every rule (nor should you try) but going "rules-lite" is not the solution. People can already play rules-lite without buying a product. Hell, they can play rules-lite with the books they have.
Despite what people might think, Shadowrun 5e is not a complicated system. Its easy to understand and simple enough for pick up and play while also allowing heavy customization to make your character unique. This is a strength and if the people behind this really think ignoring that to focus on fiction and rules-lite elseworld books they are going to be in for a sore mistake.
Addressing the actual problems. I know I'm not very popular already, but I've not really had much of a hassle with anything in the rules prior. We have been playing regularly (one day a week) for over a year. And the first time we really ran into a problem was with Howling Shadows not including a cost modifier. I could accept some of the other minor things (like vehicle mods, etc) because Rigger had not come out yet and when it did all those things were covered.
In fact, just to show I am not a negative douche bag. I want it on record that Chrome Flesh is one of my all-time favorite Shadowrun books. The stories and dialogue are nice and the content is all there (minus a few little things which were quickly addressed). But in all honesty, it was a great book and the standard that I've come to expect from Shadowrun. Rigger didn't quite measure up but it was still not a bad book.
Howling Shadows on the other hand, while having good rules mechanics really suffered with a lot of the fluff. I found the stories to drag on (longer than my posts) and it took a really long time to reach the hook. It felt like a chore reading the fiction sections and I kept finding myself pulled away and having to start over. Making matters worse, the character who is "writing" the book (G-Nome) is a bit of a pretentious dickhead and something of an ideologue or what we here in Australia call a microscope environmentalist. Meaning, someone who has a screwed perspective on nature because they've never had to actually put themselves in a dangerous situation. I don't know if this was intentional or the writer themselves has never really been out in the wilderness and dealt with wild animals. It is not a judgement. This is fiction after all.
But the crime I could not forgive is that most of the time I did not know what I was reading about and when I did, it was because I was already familiar with the critter from previous editions.
Then, the book does not have a Jackpoint login page. Which is a minor complaint, but just when we thought we were done with the troubles in the book... we couldn't find out what website all of this "Data" had been posted to in game. Well, we did but it took sifting through a bunch of stuff we've already read to figure it out.
One of these things, I would forgive. I wouldn't call for an errata. So long as I can use the book for the game, its cool. The Drake section was well done, the animal handling rules are good and I liked the inclusion of more Mentor Spirits. Whoever thought of that had a good idea. They deserve a pat on the back.
I am not a condescending internet troll or a 40-year old pimply faced single basement dweller. I like what a lot of catalyst has done and I love Shadowrun. Its a fun game that me and my friends enjoy. We have two guys that love fantasy, two guys that love sci-fi and me... and with Shdowrun we can meet right in the middle and tell some cool heist stories.
BUT
We do have certain standards, and (like I said in the other post) if we do not have what we need to use the material I paid for in a month, I will stop. We can spend the time playing Mario Party with our partners or going out. We could play other RPGs. We don't have to continue to support the franchise and we wont.
BECAUSE
I am aware of how behind the scenes works here. A lot of folks are not and want to fly to the defense. But I have worked as a writer and I have worked on RPGs, one big company -- one small. I know that the reason we do not have any errata is because the Freelancers want to be paid to do it or they are too lazy to do it. I want to say right now that you should not WANT to be paid for writing errata if that is the case. Nor are you entitled to be. You were hired to publish a game book, not a novel. You were hired to write a functional set of arbitration for players. If something you have written is cloudy, not easily interpreted or (in this case) lacking you have failed to do you job. This reflects extremely poorly on you as an author.
I would strongly consider (if nothing else) the Freelancer who wrote the material which the community is demanding errata post a "Word from the Author" with said rules clarifications. If this is not legally condoned by Catalyst a simple foreword clarifying these are rules as intended should solve the problem.
I respect the hard work and time you put into these products, but you are not writing them for your own gratification. A novel would not be published if it was missing a paragraph or several words out of every other sentence. An RPG Supplement is no different.
Sorry for this meaty message but I wanted to get this out there. There is really no excuse. I am aware of just how difficult your job is and pretending it is harder than it is or there are invisible barriers preventing you from addressing the issues is careless, irresponsible and lazy. If nothing else you should be happy that so many people CARE enough about what you have written to ask for clarification regarding it.
If the issues with Howling Shadows are not addressed, I will no longer support Shadowrun while in the hands of Catalyst and neither will others in my group and we will be sending letters to people higher in the ladder (thank you to the bloke who posted links to that!), explaining why we are no longer supporting the product and our concerns that it is being mismanaged.
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Hey Blue you're way off base on the freelancers.
They get their orders from the line editor and he has not (evidently) made errata a priority, or heck even something to be done at some point.
Basically it's all management (and lack thereof) fault.
The freelancers would have errata done asap if the line editor directed them to/ let them do it.
I know this because they post here and elsewhere frequently and in the errata threads themselves while Catalyst's management is AWOL and has been for years now.
BTW anarchy is meant to incorporate/ follow the CUE system Catalyst devised for their super hero RPG.
Take from that what you will.
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Hey Blue you're way off base on the freelancers.
They get their orders from the line editor and he has not (evidently) made errata a priority, or heck even something to be done at some point.
Basically it's all management (and lack thereof) fault.
Sorry man, I know you believe that but I'm not buying it. Not even slightly. If the person who did the writing in question posted clarification regarding his writing, it would be fine. If there is really a big evil editor telling them they're not allowed to write errata (which I doubt, the very notion seems utterly preposterous) they should band together and go above his head. Because it is going to be their names that get dragged through the mud. And (and forgive me if I come off a little too Clockwork here) BUT I fully intend to rake me some muck across the web and I will not be buying future material worked on by anyone on the list of people who worked on this book. I will be very vocal about the people who chose not to provide quality work for their customers.
It is just not reasonable to treat your clientele like this and expect repeat business.
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I agree wholeheartedly with the below assessment but you're targets are incorrect.
The freelancers are just that, contractors.
They have no ability to go over the head of the line editor etc.
They cannot act in any manner for the company or without direction from same.
If the line editor (and Catalyst's management in general) could care less about their customers and will not respond to their customers considerable and long lived pains what makes you think they give two shits about the freelancers opinions?
It is just not reasonable to treat your clientele like this and expect repeat business.
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Freelancers are like Samurai, ser. They get a job, they do their best. They don't control or own the fruit of their labors. And it is bad form to speak ill of an employer, no matter who you are. They don't control whether or not an errata comes out or not because they can't speak for the company, because they are just freelancers and are paid for work done, not as representatives of the company. Even if a freelancer writes errata or gives a peek behind the curtain, that is only one person's opinion, and means nothing more than a GM's opinion at the table.
I love Shadowrun, for sure. I don't think anyone would doubt that. But I am confused when someone says they love/like it and then says something like this:
I've not really had much of a hassle with anything in the rules prior. We have been playing regularly (one day a week) for over a year. And the first time we really ran into a problem was with Howling Shadows not including a cost modifier.
If you have never had much of a hassle until this last book, why all of the rage-vomit across interwebs? In every other area of people's lives, they tend to suffer long when they love something. But I am not sure that quitting the game and complaining to lots of folks is going to accomplish your mission. I am all for fighting the man, but the golden rule of activism is not doing something that has no chance of working. And if you do what you are promising to do, all you will accomplish is becoming the person that everyone ignores because they only ever rant.
I think I want what you want: To love Shadowrun and to have it be as awesome as possible. But poisoning the water everywhere you go will not accomplish this. It will simply spoil other people's fun as well. And that isn't a noble goal.
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Well, to start; Shadowrun Anarchy is apparently the new book they're releasing this year, which is a Rules-Lite version of Shadowrun. That doesn't mean it has no rules, it means they're streamlining and removing most of the 'complex' things for a more narrative style of play or some drek like that. Having played Rules-Lite systems in the past, I'm not the biggest fan. There is such a thing as too simple, in my experience.
I have to disagree with you on the quality of Chrome Flesh, personally; I think the layout was abysmal, especially when combined with the (lack of) index. It was practically the opposite of intuitive. I'm a big fan of fluff up front, crunch in the back though.
And yeah, the writers are freelancers. They don't have as much influence as you seem to think. They're paid for the writing they do, and then they are out of the process besides some clarifications. And given the responses so far, I easily could see a 'big evil editor' being behind this (or big, incompetent, or big, uncaring). Someone has to be, and it has to be higher in the totem pole than the writers.
And Opti, I have to disagree with you on not black-listing Catalyst. If they continue to ignore us and put out sub-par products, they need to lose our business. Our money is one of the few ways we can have a meaningful impact on them. We cut the money, we cut their base.
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totes. It's just that most of their fan base doesn't reside on forums, and even if everyone who threatened to stop buying products actually did, it wouldn't hurt the bottom line as much as you'd think. So as long as the vast majority of customers is still buying the stuff, it becomes very easy to write off excessive negativity as simply the work of "haters." Whether that is true or not is irrelevant. So in this case, I have seen positive interaction change things far more than negative. Just like in psychology.
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Blue, have you even read the other posts within this very subgroup or under the products heading?
The writers themselves are active, some more than others granted, but time and time again we have been told that word have been sent further up the chain about mistakes made and corrections, yet no errata was ever released.
While there is the possibility that the writers are lying through their teeth, which I doubt based on their responses here and there, fact is that they and even others like AJ, who has a foot in the door keep prodding management about Erratas to no effect.
So again, it is not the writers, it is the top layers.
Also since we are heading into con season don't expect anything at all, except maybe worse quality products as the past has showed that the rush is worse than any other time of the year.
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Hey Blue you're way off base on the freelancers.
They get their orders from the line editor and he has not (evidently) made errata a priority, or heck even something to be done at some point.
Basically it's all management (and lack thereof) fault.
Sorry man, I know you believe that but I'm not buying it. Not even slightly.
See, stuff like this makes it really hard to want to reply to you. You don't come off as asking questions in good faith, or even making complaints in good faith. Even when Adzling, one of the most critical of CGL posters around here, tries to remind/explain to you how the system works, you just ignore him and go off on another rant.
Do you have any idea how hard it is to engage with you, when you're acting like this?
You demand to know what SR:Anarchy is, and then go on for like a paragraph about how you already hate it. You demand errata for some rules you think are missing, then you go on to insist that it be official (but then you shift the goalposts again, demanding that a freelancer do unpaid work); which is it, do you want something official (in which case none of us here can help you) or do you insist a freelancer do unpaid work and write something for you, that they weren't assigned to write by their boss (in which case, ignoring the attitude you're showing and the fact you're insisting someone do someone else's job without their boss's permission, you're still not actually getting the official errata you demanded).
You're establishing this pattern of behavior, man, that creates nothing but a string of off-topic no-win situations for people. Not only are you going on these page-long rants in all the wrong threads, but you insist on things, then shift the goalposts to make it impossible to satisfy you.
And you're doing all of it to the people who can't help you. Freelancers can't post official errata. Non-disclosure agreements prevent us from discussing rules creation or backstage discussions, which means we're not supposed to even really have discussions about errata we'd like to see, and it means we have to be really careful when we post even just a FAQ. Basic professionalism -- since you say you're in the RPG industry, you should know this -- prevents us from posting an errata/FAQ on someone else's work anyways, and NDAs prevent us from posting a meaningful errata/FAQ on our own work, and we're just contract labor, so nothing we post would be official anyways, and it's not your place to demand anything of us at all, anyways, especially when you do it in a way that repeatedly calls us lazy and incompetent. The list of reasons we shouldn't, and in fact can't, give you what you want just goes on and on and on, and that's without even taking into account the attitude you're showing and the insults you're throwing around.
We're here, on these forums, on our own time, and on our own dime. We answer questions when we can, we ask questions and get feedback when we can. We're here on the forums because we're fans, and we got this job because we're fans. Our pennies per word don't obligate us to take your rambling demands and abuse. More importantly, though, we can't give you what you keep demanding we give you. We write what we're told to write, and that's all we have to write, but it's also all we can write. Our characters aren't our own, our gear, our rules, our critters. Our authority over a product, officially and legally, literally ends when we send it in for editing. It becomes someone else's work, and they get the final say on what makes it to publication, but also the final say on what gets said about it, after the fact. Legally.
We literally can not give you what you want, as freelancers, but you keep demanding we give it to you, in thread after thread, and insulting us when we don't. And since you claim to be in the RPG industry, you should know that. If we're here, on the forum, we're already doing everything we can do, everything we're allowed to do, to try and help out.
Maybe you don't like the limitations of contracted freelance work. Okay, but take that up with the RPG industry as a whole.
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Hell, you should see some of the great stuff that gets left on the cutting room floor. I want to rave about some stuff Alex and I came up with (mostly him, to be honest), but I can't even hint at what it is, or was, or could have been, because of contractual obligation.
Once we write it, and turn it in, it is out of our hands. Sometimes what arrives between the covers is very different from what we submitted. Other times, it's exactly the same. But whatever it ends up as, it's out of our hands from that point on, and there's very little we can do about it. The same goes for any other freelance writer in any industry.
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Freelancers are like Samurai, ser. They get a job, they do their best. They don't control or own the fruit of their labors. And it is bad form to speak ill of an employer, no matter who you are. They don't control whether or not an errata comes out or not because they can't speak for the company, because they are just freelancers and are paid for work done, not as representatives of the company. Even if a freelancer writes errata or gives a peek behind the curtain, that is only one person's opinion, and means nothing more than a GM's opinion at the table.
If you had a carpenter building a house but one of the screws in a hinge is jutting out and you don't have the right type of screwdriver, you could go out and buy one and fix it yourself. But you've paid for the house to be built. Now, lets pretend you call Sam's Carpentry unit and ask for someone to come and fix the screw and no one comes. You'd be a little upset. Now lets say you see the carpenter who built the door and you ask him to come over and fix the screw and he told you that he wasn't responsible for it. That he couldn't take the screwdriver on his belt and twist it in and solve your problem. Who would you blame?
The freelancers ARE responsible for the material they write. They do not get a free pass. The line editor doesn't cop all the blame. And the fact that I've only seen one of the freelancers come on and address the problems created by their shoddy work. Its one thing if you make a mistake and the editor does not catch it. Its another when you make a mistake, the editor misses it, and others are impeded by it and you refuse to offer insight.
Saying "They are no different to another GM" is wrong. If what they wrote is present in the book, it was approved. If it does not make sense. They can clarify.
If you have never had much of a hassle until this last book, why all of the rage-vomit across interwebs?
Because I paid $30 for a book we cannot use until we are given a table that would take less than an hour to put together in an official capacity, and rather than do that I was given a bullshit song and dance. Someone blatantly lied to my face and justified their failure as a creative choice. It was disrespectful and I am not going to be disrespected. If you fuck up, you be accountable for it. No one is perfect. We all make mistakes. Its nothing to be ashamed of. When someone is too lazy to provide essential material for their fan base (intentionally) out of what is blatant laziness or pride, it bothers me.
In every other area of people's lives, they tend to suffer long when they love something.
Thats called domestic abuse Opti lol. I'm not going to tolerate suffering or stay with anyone or anything causing me pain simply because I like it or them. I am a grown man and have far more self-respect than that. More options.
But I am not sure that quitting the game and complaining to lots of folks is going to accomplish your mission. I am all for fighting the man, but the golden rule of activism is not doing something that has no chance of working. And if you do what you are promising to do, all you will accomplish is becoming the person that everyone ignores because they only ever rant.
If they ignore me they lose a customer. I'm someone who buys physical copies of the books, digital copies and subscribes to Herolab for purchases there. In the last year my group has spent about a grand on Shadowrun products. We want to support the company and I actually like Shadowrun 5th more than 4th. But if the other problems people are having with the errata is as simple as not having this table and somehow my group has just failed to stumble upon it then I am upset.
Look at when I joined the forum. I didn't just join up and start complaining. I don't want to stick it to the man. When I am given what I paid for (which is an RPG book) I will once again return to my internet slumber.
This "table" is NOT difficult to make. Its literally the easiest thing someone who has worked on RPG writing CAN do. Yet, its being made out like its this huge chore. I'm not some epic game writer and I know exactly what challenges it poses and how easy it is to address. ALL it takes is looking at other avail abilities, the cost of illegal weapons and the cost of vehicles and middling it out somewhere in there in the middle.
I don't want to "Stick it to the man" but I feel like you are being lied too. The freelancers aren't like "mercenaries with pens" they are a crew of people (likely with group organization) that are the company. The company saves itself by keeping them freelance so it doesn't need to pay them a regular wage. This is pretty normal in the industry. Pretending they're not accountable for the quality of their own work is non-sense. If it was me and someone raised a concern on facebook or twitter with my work, I would take the time out of my day to amend it. Its common courtesy. Even if I had to preface it with (This is not an official errata, but this was my intent). And for most that should be enough.
I think I want what you want: To love Shadowrun and to have it be as awesome as possible. But poisoning the water everywhere you go will not accomplish this. It will simply spoil other people's fun as well. And that isn't a noble goal.
Its about accountability and deception. You are all being deceived. I am not sure WHY. But you are being deceived. I would like to think its not just because the people who have worked on these books are lazy or don't want to think about or stand on their work. But so far that is what it looks like. I see a bunch of people blaming the line editor but I would argue that the inaction is more of a trespass.
I'd be willing to bet that a lot of the freelancers expect to be paid for writing errata and have made a united front not to do it unless they are paid. A sort of faux union. Call me a conspiracy nut but that makes more sense to me that a bunch of former gamers refusing to address the concerns of their (tiny) fan base. Haunting the boards, I've only seen one freelancer come forward and clarify his intent (the guy who wrote The Ways).
That is all it takes. I don't need all the bells and whistles. I don't need the red carpet unfurled and big official catalyst logos stamped all over the place. Honestly, it would be easy for me to have just convinced the GM to use a table we whipped up by now. I could have done it in half the time it took to make this post, but it is a matter of principle.
If you continue to excuse the shoddy and lazy writing, it will only get worse. So, I will use shame and tar and feathers to help the writers become better writers. When they do good I will praise them highly and pat them on the back and when they refuse to help the fan base I will point and name them. Or they could give me my table and I will leave and you wont hear from me or my group again until we have a question.
But I highly recommend others follow suite. A bit of tough love. They can do better, we've seen it. Don't treat us like idiots. Don't lie and deceive us. There is no shame in admitting fault. We're not unreasonable. Just be honest and do your best.
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The freelancers ARE responsible for the material they write. They do not get a free pass. The line editor doesn't cop all the blame. And the fact that I've only seen one of the freelancers come on and address the problems created by their shoddy work. Its one thing if you make a mistake and the editor does not catch it. Its another when you make a mistake, the editor misses it, and others are impeded by it and you refuse to offer insight.
Because I paid $30 for a book we cannot use until we are given a table that would take less than an hour to put together in an official capacity, and rather than do that I was given a bullshit song and dance. Someone blatantly lied to my face and justified their failure as a creative choice. It was disrespectful and I am not going to be disrespected. If you fuck up, you be accountable for it. No one is perfect. We all make mistakes. Its nothing to be ashamed of. When someone is too lazy to provide essential material for their fan base (intentionally) out of what is blatant laziness or pride, it bothers me.
This "table" is NOT difficult to make. Its literally the easiest thing someone who has worked on RPG writing CAN do. Yet, its being made out like its this huge chore. I'm not some epic game writer and I know exactly what challenges it poses and how easy it is to address. ALL it takes is looking at other avail abilities, the cost of illegal weapons and the cost of vehicles and middling it out somewhere in there in the middle.
I don't want to "Stick it to the man" but I feel like you are being lied too. The freelancers aren't like "mercenaries with pens" they are a crew of people (likely with group organization) that are the company. The company saves itself by keeping them freelance so it doesn't need to pay them a regular wage. This is pretty normal in the industry. Pretending they're not accountable for the quality of their own work is non-sense. If it was me and someone raised a concern on facebook or twitter with my work, I would take the time out of my day to amend it. Its common courtesy. Even if I had to preface it with (This is not an official errata, but this was my intent). And for most that should be enough.
Its about accountability and deception. You are all being deceived. I am not sure WHY. But you are being deceived. I would like to think its not just because the people who have worked on these books are lazy or don't want to think about or stand on their work. But so far that is what it looks like. I see a bunch of people blaming the line editor but I would argue that the inaction is more of a trespass.
I'd be willing to bet that a lot of the freelancers expect to be paid for writing errata and have made a united front not to do it unless they are paid. A sort of faux union. Call me a conspiracy nut but that makes more sense to me that a bunch of former gamers refusing to address the concerns of their (tiny) fan base.
I've snipped out the above because those quotes contain the greatest concentration of misunderstandings, conspiracies, and incorrect statements. You continue to demonstrate a basic misunderstanding of not only the responsibilities of a freelancer, but the abilities of one, and you also don't seem to understand that Opti is, himself, a freelancer (so no, he's not being deceived by those nefarious writers, he is one).
The thing you don't seem to get, is that it's not like a freelancer forgot to write a chart. Nobody was assigned to write a chart, so nobody wrote one. You keep saying "the freelancer" needs to own up, but you've already contacted the line developer, and heard from him. If the line developer says no chart, no chart gets written. Freelancers don't just scribble out whatever they want to, they get assigned a section of book, they get told what goes in it, they write it, and then the line developer keeps it as-is, changes it, snips a little bit here and there, or what-have-you. There isn't a freelancer refusing to stand by their work, because the chart was nobody's work. The line dev didn't tell anyone to write a chart, freelancers write what they're told, it's really that simple.
And you've already heard from the line developer telling you why there's no chart, and yet here you are, blaming the freelancers for not giving you a chart, and then blaming them for not giving a chart now, and also not a chart now, and also not a chart now...I get it. You're disappointed, and that's a bummer. But you're complaining to, and about, the wrong people (and the most baffling thing is that you've already complained to the right person, you just didn't like his answer so you went back to complaining to the wrong people again).
That's like going to McDonald's and asking for something, and then the poor guy at the register tells you they don't have it, and he's not supposed to go off-menu. So you yell for the manager, the manager explains to you that, no, that burger isn't something they offer...but then you go back to yelling at the guy at the register, demanding he make you that burger. You already went to the authority figure, man. Jason didn't tell you what you wanted to hear, and that's a bummer, but he's our boss. If he doesn't hire us to write something, we don't write it. We can't, officially. You refuse to hear that, no matter how many times, and how many ways, we explain it.
Seriously, man. Multiple writers have told you across multiple posts the multiple reasons we can't give you what you want. I'm sorry you don't like it, but it is what it is. You can continue to refuse to acknowledge the realities of the industry -- NDAs, and contract labor, and the chain of command at CGL -- all you want, but you're making it really, really, hard to have any sort of productive conversation with you when you do this. We can't answer you if you refuse to listen to our answers.
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See, stuff like this makes it really hard to want to reply to you. You don't come off as asking questions in good faith, or even making complaints in good faith.
I have very little good faith for humanity as a whole. This is true. I think most people would just look at my complaint. Moan and then go back to watching TV or playing a video game or hanging out with their family. I have been freelancing myself for about 10 years. It is my primary source of income and in my experience (in the world of comic books at least) most folks will not work unless you motivate them with a heavy hand.
Even when Adzling, one of the most critical of CGL posters around here, tries to remind/explain to you how the system works, you just ignore him and go off on another rant.
Because I'm not going to be lied to. You cannot tell me you don't have a google circle or routine hangout where you discuss this. You've already all gathered and discussed my "rant" no doubt. Likely saying how distasteful it was and how I am causing problems. I've been sitting exactly where you are. And I think you have good intentions (which is why you've replied knowing what a pain in the ass I am). I respect that, but not as much as I respect transparency and honesty. You're probably a good dude, but that doesn't change that I purchased a product that I cannot really use and no one who worked on the book has been willing to come forward.
Do you have any idea how hard it is to engage with you, when you're acting like this?
Yeah, I do.
You demand to know what SR:Anarchy is, and then go on for like a paragraph about how you already hate it.
I don't remand to know, I asked. Demanding would look something like this...
WHAT THE FUCK IS SHADOWRUN: ANARCHY ANYWAY? TELL ME!
I also don't hate it, I just stated that I do not think it is a good idea financially. And if you read the last couple of posts from other people you will see why. Knowing little to nothing about it (we the consumer, from our point of view) are deterred by the concept of a rule's lite elseworld shadowrun game. This is because (as I understand it) that most people are in long running games and like things clear. People who traditionally play shadowrun are known in the gaming community for being "gun bunnies" and liking heir catalogues, customization and options. They are also known for liking the on-going metaplot and story.
What is being marketed to us (as I understand it) is a Shadowrun which specifically steps away from all of those things. I do not think this will be profitable for Catalyst and as I understand it we will not be able to implement it into our on-going game. I am not here to "troll" the board or undermine your work. I am making these long "Rants" so my stance is clear and understood.
I'm sorry (genuinely sorry) if I come off to blunt, but I'd rather speak frankly and honestly than dance around something.
You demand errata for some rules you think are missing, then you go on to insist that it be official
I never asked for official errata. I would be quite content if the author just came forward and provided us with a table.
(but then you shift the goalposts again, demanding that a freelancer do unpaid work); which is it, do you want something official (in which case none of us here can help you) or do you insist a freelancer do unpaid work and write something for you
For anyone who purchased the book. Not just for me. For the writer to be beholden to a standard of quality and recognize that they are not writing novels or fan fiction but RPG Material to be consumed by Gamers. If this was not such a minor thing being resisted so strongly with misdirection and deception I would be far less confrontational. More to the point, as I covered earlier you were PAID to provide fluff and rules. What you provided (or whoever wrote it, provided) was lacking an essential piece of information for using the material in the game world.
that they weren't assigned to write by their boss (in which case, ignoring the attitude you're showing and the fact you're insisting someone do someone else's job without their boss's permission, you're still not actually getting the official errata you demanded).
I am "demanding" that the writer of the product (or writers, I am sure you have a guild -- even if its just over Google Hangout) man up and provide us with what was omitted from the book. I am not currently demanding an apology from anyone. But given that Jason lied straight to my face, it would be nice. I'm not shifting goal posts and I'm not the asshole you think I am. I am just not going to stand here and watch you lie to your customer base. I will admit, its a pretty sweet deal you've fostered here with the posters. Making them somehow think you're not responsible for your own missteps. Shifting the blame to the big bad line editor allows you to take all the praise from the good work, build hype about up-coming products and be untouchable when your own laziness and lack of focus backfires. You've somehow shifted the blame and convinced people that the reason that the problems were in the book were not your fault in the first place, but the editors for not catching them.
Its sly, I'll give you that. And it might not be your own plan but you seem content in fostering it rather than just being accountable and growing as a professional. And I'm not saying this just to you, but all the freelancers.
No one is perfect. We all make mistakes. But when the line editor (the boss) misses your mistakes it is not entirely their burden. If they change something you had written and made it convoluted, I would agree. If they removed your content. I would agree. But you should not paid for writing errata. We should not need errata in the first place. I understand nothing is perfect, but lets be fair. You guys know exactly how little work we're talking here.
You're establishing this pattern of behavior, man, that creates nothing but a string of off-topic no-win situations for people. Not only are you going on these page-long rants in all the wrong threads, but you insist on things, then shift the goalposts to make it impossible to satisfy you.
Once. *Kicks over the strawman*
I had assumed the topic was over, so I tried striking up some light conversation about what was going on in my game. People were not interested and did not respond. That is fair enough. One post if not a pattern of behavior and you will notice that I have not done the same here. I have stayed focused. The focus of which is the material that you and your peers are refusing to provide. The deception you are weaving and fostering throughout your fanbase and now your attempt to vilify me because you failed to provide essential material.
These page long "rants" are essential, because a simple one line request was met with lies and deception. And I do not want any misunderstanding. I'd hate for people to think they could start building strawmen and mischaracterizing me.
And you're doing all of it to the people who can't help you. Freelancers can't post official errata. Non-disclosure agreements prevent us from discussing rules creation or backstage discussions, which means we're not supposed to even really have discussions about errata we'd like to see, and it means we have to be really careful when we post even just a FAQ. Basic professionalism -- since you say you're in the RPG industry, you should know this -- prevents us from posting an errata/FAQ on someone else's work anyways, and NDAs prevent us from posting a meaningful errata/FAQ on our own work, and we're just contract labor, so nothing we post would be official anyways
Your NDA prevents you from discussing the creative process? Jesus man, what if your book sold a million copies and you had to do panels at GenCon or something? What has Cat had you guys sign?!
and it's not your place to demand anything of us at all, anyways, especially when you do it in a way that repeatedly calls us lazy and incompetent. The list of reasons we shouldn't, and in fact can't, give you what you want just goes on and on and on, and that's without even taking into account the attitude you're showing and the insults you're throwing around.
Well, I will say this. IF what you are saying is true and Catalyst has made you sign something preventing you from talking about your post-published work and your intent as the author I would seriously recommend talking to your peers and approaching them on a united front. What you have agreed to is not in your own best interests or the best interests of the fanbase or their company. I understand reasonable restrictions (not discussing pay or details regarding business) but the fact you cannot discuss your intent as the author is very dubious to say the least.
That said, it has been my experience that people are highly unmotivated or believe that they deserve payment to amend their own work. I do not agree with this as an ethical point and I recommend you reconsider your own stance on this. You are not novelists. No one is asking you to rewrite the setting fluff. And (in the future) the person who wrote the creature descriptions for Howling Shadows should provide creature descriptions and discuss the monster's behavior. Rather than focusing on things like, how it digests its food. PLEASE do not read this in the tone of a pretentious cunt. I am genuinely trying to offer help improve the quality of their work.
You can have a "First person" discussion about said appearance or behavior but they needed to paint a picture of the critter for those who were not familiar with it. I am not expecting them to errata that or go back and rewrite the whole book. I am being loud and "ranting" FOR you and FOR the community as much as it is FOR my own gaming group.
Why?
The same reason I am entitled to make these demands. I am not one of your peers or your fans. I am a consumer of your product.
We're here, on these forums, on our own time, and on our own dime. We answer questions when we can, we ask questions and get feedback when we can. We're here on the forums because we're fans, and we got this job because we're fans. Our pennies per word don't obligate us to take your rambling demands and abuse. More importantly, though, we can't give you what you keep demanding we give you. We write what we're told to write, and that's all we have to write, but it's also all we can write. Our characters aren't our own, our gear, our rules, our critters. Our authority over a product, officially and legally, literally ends when we send it in for editing. It becomes someone else's work, and they get the final say on what makes it to publication, but also the final say on what gets said about it, after the fact. Legally.
This is all known to me but what was not known was that you had signed away your rights to discuss the creative process. I honestly feel sympathetic and sorry for you. I did about a years work for a company I will not name that paid me with books rather than cash because I'd signed a bad contact. So, I get the situation you are in.
But I am not trying to be a cunt here. I am (believe it or not) trying to help keep your noses above water. You might not like the tough love but that is what this is. So, make sure that Catalyst knows that if the issues are not quickly addressed. If they do not empower you guys to sit down and address the problem(s). They will be losing 5-6 customers (ppft big deal) but those customers will them forward all of the information they have collected on this across the web. Which is what we intend to do.
I know, blah blah blah, never deal with terrorists but we've been left with no other recourse.
We literally can not give you what you want, as freelancers, but you keep demanding we give it to you, in thread after thread, and insulting us when we don't. And since you claim to be in the RPG industry, you should know that. If we're here, on the forum, we're already doing everything we can do, everything we're allowed to do, to try and help out.
Maybe you don't like the limitations of contracted freelance work. Okay, but take that up with the RPG industry as a whole.
No man, if what you guys are saying is true. You have been screwed. How are you going to appear on Podcasts or at Cons and talk about your work if you can't discuss your intent prior to the work reaching editorial?
Anyway, this has been heated enough. As for "thread after thread", no. Just these two. My group killing G-Nome (the other thread I made, at your recommendation no less) is entirely because the other players in my group are all racists to gnomes (God knows why) and I don't like him. So I figured I might as well finally let them off the leash so the next time I want them "NOT" to kill a Gnome, I can say "You guys already killed G-Nome, leave this guy alone."
But that is neither here nor there. Lets keep this on topic. :)
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I've lost count of how many times you've called the freelancers lazy, called us liars, and insisted we're some shadowy cabal that pulls the line developer's strings. I'm engaging with you as someone who wasn't even involved in Howling Shadows, so I've not really got a dog in this fight. I'm trying to just explain to you some of your mistaken assumptions and stuff, and you keep coming back with accusations and insults, and that's not the way to encourage people to talk to you.
There's clearly no point in continuing the discussion at this point, since you claim to know our social lives better than we do, you claim to know our contracts better than we do, you claim to know our NDA's better than we do, you claim to know the freelancing process better than we do, you claim to know our work ethic better than we do, you claim to know what work was assigned to us better than we do, you claim to know the errata process better than we do, you claim to know our line developer's responsibilities better than we do, you claim to know our editor's process better than we do, and since you've decided that any time our answers don't align with your assumptions, we're lying to you.
So, okay.
There's just no engaging with that in a productive way, so have a good one. I'm sorry you're upset about your book, but you're making it impossible -- literally impossible -- to have a constructive discussion.
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I've lost count of how many times you've called the freelancers lazy, called us liars, and insisted we're some shadowy cabal that pulls the line developer's strings. I'm engaging with you as someone who wasn't even involved in Howling Shadows, so I've not really got a dog in this fight. I'm trying to just explain to you some of your mistaken assumptions and stuff, and you keep coming back with accusations and stuff, and that's not the way to encourage people to talk to you.
So there's clearly no point in continuing the discussion at this point, since you claim to know our social lives better than we do, you claim to know our contracts better than we do, you claim to know our NDA's better than we do, you claim to know the freelancing process better than we do, you claim to know our work ethic better than we do, you claim to know what work was assigned to us better than we do, you claim to know the errata process better than we do, you claim to know our line developer's responsibilities better than we do, you claim to know our editor's process better than we do, and since you've decided any time our answers don't align with your assumptions, we're lying to you.
So, okay.
There's just no engaging with that in a productive way, so have a good one. I'm sorry you're upset about your book, but you're making it impossible -- literally impossible -- to have a constructive discussion.
Go away. Calm down. Come back and read the last two paragraphs of my post again. I did not understand (and I admit this) that the nature of the NDA you signed limited your speech on your intent as the author. Now that you have cleared that up with me, I actually feel quite sorry for you. But "realistically" it doesn't change anything. It just means you and your peers are in a no-win situation and just as screwed as we are.
Again, stop and think about this for a moment. If you cannot talk about your intent, then you run the risk of breaching the NDA each time you sit a panel or you have to tell anyone who asks you cannot answer them. If (unlikely I know) but if one of the books you guys blows up. If you end up selling millions and you cannot address or clarify content you have written within the book without breaking your contact with CAT, well... as you said. You know your specific contract better than me, so look at it.
Its a bad contract, you guys are getting a raw deal. They do not pay you a regular wage (acceptable) but placing limits on your creative speech is not in your best interests. Your "main" income is going to be from cons and Q&As and if you can't speak honestly there without putting yourself at legal risk, that is a real problem. Wouldn't you agree?
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You haven't been searching that hard, Blue.
Off the top of my head I can mention at least three authors coming back to discuss their product or providing erratas. Run Faster had that, Rigger 5 and Chrome Flesh, hell even the guy who wrote part of the Street Grimoire came back with clarifications.
So ... Are you a troll? Honestly at this point I find it hard to believe you could be anything else.
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You haven't been searching that hard, Blue.
Off the top of my head I can mention at least three authors coming back to discuss their product or providing erratas. Run Faster had that, Rigger 5 and Chrome Flesh, hell even the guy who wrote part of the Street Grimoire came back with clarifications.
I've read the guy that addressed Street Grim, haven't seen the guy on Run Faster or Rigger 5.0 -- but I will admit our group has never had a problem with RF or R5.0. So I was not aware anything needed to be addressed. Both seemed to be pretty straight forward, honestly.
So ... Are you a troll? Honestly at this point I find it hard to believe you could be anything else.
No man, I'm not. I tried sending an e-mail labeled "Private and Confidential" disclosing more information to a couple of the writers on the board, but as far as I can see I have nothing in my "Sent Box" so I think a lot of my intent here is lost.
To speak honestly, I do not want to quit Shadowrun. In an ideal world, the powers that be get their shit together and this account goes dark. I realized that me quietly walking away would not instigate change and since I saw the writer addressing the Street Grim stuff a few months back I know that there are writers here who are happy to clarify their content.
So I assumed this would not be the headache it has been. I assumed things would be easily addressed along with a simple apology and folks could go back to having fun and enjoying the game. I am not a "rules lawyer" or a "rules heavy" kind of guy. But when I cannot use a book because of something so simple (Honest to God). And the writer behind it does not even want to spend (Probably only 15 minutes, honestly) addressing the problem its frustrating.
If this was not such a minor effort to fix that is being disregarded I would not be so upset. And when I look and see they have not issued errata in 24 months, it is discouraging. Being quiet and content will not change it. And so I am making some noise, I apologize if the death-rattle of my fandom isn't a perfect requiem. But it is what it is.
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So ... Are you a troll? Honestly at this point I find it hard to believe you could be anything else.
Look at him.
He's blue.
He's obviously an oni.
A very pretty oni.
Now we just need to find the red one.
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I'm not positive on the exact wording for Catalyst freelancers, but most NDAs prevent a person from disclosing information regarding the content without the express consent of the controlling company. In this circumstance, that means that nobody can discuss content that may have been discussed for the book but ultimately not included. And it was mentioned before, if the line editor never gave out the assignment to create the table, then it was never anyone's job to create one. This means that the claim that it is the writer's responsibility to fix the problem is ultimately wrong. Not to mention that there likely isn't a revised list, so it would have to be made up, and like everyone has been saying, any individual writer doesn't get final say about what passes for final rules.
So, no. None of the writers can come out and just spew out a chart for you or any of us. It would either a) be unofficial, b) break NDA, c) be unapproved (and wrong), or d) any combination of these
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Hasn't the guy already stated he'd be ok with a or c?
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No man, I'm not. I tried sending an e-mail labeled "Private and Confidential" disclosing more information to a couple of the writers on the board, but as far as I can see I have nothing in my "Sent Box" so I think a lot of my intent here is lost.
I, for one, received your PM, and your attempt at explaining yourself further.. As I said, however, I'd rather not continue an argumentative conversation in private. I think I've said my piece here in the open, and I'd like to just leave it at that, thank you.
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Multiple reports; locking thread until I can discuss further with FastJack.
@BrysenBlue - despite your stated intent, you are not providing constructive criticism at this point.
SR Mod