[samoth]

Like I said, there is no good reason aside from willingly choosing an inferior product to use the SCK.  Without FA it is flat worse than the Ingram, period.

[ZeConster]

It really isn't, unless your fights always consist of a single Initiative Pass.

[samoth]

Ok....well luckily the Ingram also has a burst fire mode and is still better than the SCK.  Please explain how the SCK is better than the Ingram X since that seems to be the point you're trying to make.

[Namikaze]

I think the point that ZeConster is trying to make is "different strokes for different folks."  The point you seem to making is the same, but with a little less...  understanding.  Perhaps dial back the hostility and defensive posturing?

[PiXeL01]

On drones there really isn't a reason why you should go SMG over assault rifle.
But as many have already mentioned as a personal weapon the advantage of a SMG lies in concealbility, but here machine pistols win out. While damage is almost the same as machine pistols FA makes a huge difference as you can do suppressive fire.
The Ingram trumps the SCK both in fire modes and firearm mods from the moment you buy it. The Ingram comes with both sound suppressor and recoil compensation. And is cheaper. The SCK of course has higher accuracy.

But the biggest selling point of the Ingram for me is how it looks.
But again that's personal taste ^^

[ZeConster]

Ok....well luckily the Ingram also has a burst fire mode and is still better than the SCK.  Please explain how the SCK is better than the Ingram X since that seems to be the point you're trying to make.

My point was that your statement was shortsighted, just like your new statement is. The SCK has both the highest damage and highest Accuracy you can get in an SMG without it being illegal, and unlike the Ingram, it can fire in SA mode, which also has its uses. The Ingram certainly has its advantages over the SCK, but the SCK definitely isn't "flat worse than the Ingram, period" - you're just not interested in the advantages it has to offer over the Ingram, and for some reason you turned this into them not existing.

[SmilinIrish]

A loaded out Steyr was the choice for my phys ad.  Lets me fire a concealable FA weapon with automatics, that way I didn't need to take pistols skill.  With a smartgun, and my improved accuracy, I've never lost any hits.  Good damage, full auto, great little gun. 

[RHat]

Ok....well luckily the Ingram also has a burst fire mode and is still better than the SCK.  Please explain how the SCK is better than the Ingram X since that seems to be the point you're trying to make.

It's better *in some circumstances* because it offers higher accuracy, making it more effective in the hands of a skilled operator.  Throw on a GV3, and it actually offers double the non-mounted RC of the Ingram, making it better overall for sustained fire (which matters a hell of a lot more than FA fire, which you would never use for sustained fire).

Full Auto has it's uses, sure, but overall it doesn't make a weapon better - in a sustained firefight, being limited to that or burst fire actually makes a weapon worse than being limited to semi-auto or burst; the SCK in the hands of, say, a Strength 5(7) human can sustain fire for up to 8 initiative passes before any penalty is suffered, while the Ingram can only sustain for 2 initiative passes before penalty in the hands of the same shooter.  If said shooter uses the smartgun in wireless mode, has Agility 5(7) and Automatics 6 and is against a target with Reaction+Intuition 8, that means that over 9 passes the SCX delivers 8*(8+2.33) damage against the Ingram's 6*(8+3), or 82.64 vs 66.  That's before bringing Accuracy into play, and it's delivering roughly an extra two boxes of damage per action.  Oh, and after those 9 phases, the Ingram is down to 5 bullets in the mag against the SCK's 22.

[Quatar]

I assume for those 8 init passes that person is just shooting a single shot each, right? Otherwise not sure how anyone could last for 8 IP.

Though if you're going for single shots each round, why not get your hand on a SS weapon instead of SA? (Ok granted, 8 IP is quite plenty usually)

[ZeConster]

Because that SS weapon doesn't give you the freedom to fire bursts instead. But yes, if you're never going to fire bursts, a Ruger Super Warhawk may serve you better than any machine pistol or SMG.

[samoth]

I see your points, I often discount Accuracy in favor of other things (DP, full auto ability).

Once mod rules are released it won;t matter anyway.

[ZeConster]

True, mods allow for some weird stuff (my favorite thought experiment in 4th edition was the full-automatic sniper rifle).

[RHat]

I see your points, I often discount Accuracy in favor of other things (DP, full auto ability).

Once mod rules are released it won;t matter anyway.

Part of my point, actually, is that full-auto is not as valuable as you might think.

[Michael Chandra]

Accuracy is a big deal for my character, which is why I, since I can only use lasersights, nearly never use Shotguns. At 17 dice I really need an Accuracy of 8 or 9, though 7 will suffice with Take Aim. Not without though, not at 17% to lose me 1+ hits.

And only a Steel Lynx with a Gas-Vent 3 Ares Alpha can properly handle FA, being able to fire 2 FA short bursts before having to take a recoil break.

[samoth]

I see your points, I often discount Accuracy in favor of other things (DP, full auto ability).

Once mod rules are released it won;t matter anyway.

Part of my point, actually, is that full-auto is not as valuable as you might think.

Maybe not, but having the ability to do suppressive fire isn't something I'd be willing to give up which is why automatics without FA mode aren't something I consider.