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[SR6] Firing Squad - comfusion related to small unit tactics

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marfish

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« on: <05-21-22/0539:25> »
https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=31887.0
I have read this, but I am still comfuse...
1. Does everyone need to spend an action in order to enact a combat maneuver? (or just the team leader were required to do so?)
2. Is it all the move and attack in the discription of the combat maneuver was "narrative fluff", and all they do was roll dice and get the buff? (If so, that was kind of disappointing :/)
3. "A combat maneuver is performed on the lowest initiative score of the participants." So, assuming it is the 1st round of the combat, Team member 1st would be the first the act, then enermy 1st, Leader, enermy 2nd, Team member 2nd, enermy 3rd, Team member 3rd. The Leader is about to enact the Dynamic Entry in his  initiative. When to spend the action(s)? And when would be the buff kicks in?
4. for the Suppressive Fire, I just need to have one person to enact the maneuver, and I would get the full benefit?

Xenon

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« Reply #1 on: <05-21-22/0747:58> »
It seem as if many maneuvers are evaluated (prepped) *before* initiative is rolled to begin with (which mean it doesn't really matter if it cost a minor or a major action).

For maneuvers that are not evaluated outside of combat it seem to depend on if ALL members have the SUT knowledge skill (in which case most combat maneuvers seem to be initiated as Minor actions as all participants know what to do and when with just minimal communication)

Or if only the squad leader have it (in which case most combat maneuvers seem to be initiated as Major actions as the squad leader is instructing members that does not have SUT themselves and members that does not have SUT themselves also spend a Major action each to listen at the instructions).

The test itself seem to be resolved as a Influence + Logic test. If multiple squad members also have the SUT knowledge skill they can assist the leader via regular Team Work rules (rolling Influence + Logic on their own and each hit will act as a positive dice pool modifier to the leader's test).

Most maneuvers seem to last for quite some time after all members of the squad paid the initial minor or major action to initiate it (without costing additional actions). Instead the maneuver seem to give various bonuses to specific regular actions you take while the maneuver is active.


1. Does everyone need to spend an action in order to enact a combat maneuver? (or just the team leader were required to do so?)
It seem as if all members that want to be part of the combat maneuver also need to spend a minor action (if they already have the SUT knowledge skill) or a Major action (if they don't) in order to initiate it.

But in many situations the maneuver is initiated (prepped) outside of combat initiative.

For example if the team initiates Diamond Formation it might cost all members one major action or it might cost all members just a minor action. Then the squad move in Diamond Formation through the vicinity. Since the maneuver was prepped before combat started it doesn't really matter if it cost a minor or major action. Then, a few minutes later, when they walk into an ambush (still moving in Diamond Formation) all members of the squad get a reduced threshold to spot the ambush and all members of the squad also gain +2 initiative score. The Diamond Formation was already prepped several minutes earlier. There is no minor or major cost to be paid during the ambush. The maneuver is already initiated.


2. Is it all the move and attack in the discription of the combat maneuver was "narrative fluff", and all they do was roll dice and get the buff? (If so, that was kind of disappointing :/)
Perhaps easier if you let us know which specific maneuver you are thinking about.


The Leader is about to enact the Dynamic Entry in his  initiative. When to spend the action(s)? And when would be the buff kicks in?
Dynamic Entry (like many other maneuvers) is initiated (prepped) outside of combat. In this case before the actual breach is happening. Participants spend their minor or major action to "stack up" out of combat.  Before you roll for initiative. Once the squad enters the room all participants (both friend and foe) roll for initiative and when members of the squad that are part of the Dynamic Entry maneuver spend their regular Major Attack Action(s) they simply gain an AR bonus due to the already active SUT maneuver.


4. for the Suppressive Fire, I just need to have one person to enact the maneuver, and I would get the full benefit?
No, it seem as if all members that wish to take part of the same suppressive fire (that wish to gain from the bonus) will either spend a minor action (if they all have SUT knowledge skill they will all just initiate suppressive fire right before they spend their regular major full auto attack action(s) to attack targets within the area of effect) or a major action (if they don't have SUT knowledge skill the leader and participants will perhaps hunker down and spend a major action listening to the leaders instructions before they, perhaps in the next round, spend their regular major full auto attack action(s) to actually attack targets within the area of effect). It seem as if once the suppressive fire maneuver is initiated you can spend multiple major full auto attack actions and still benefit from the suppressive fire bonus.
« Last Edit: <05-21-22/0823:30> by Xenon »

marfish

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« Reply #2 on: <05-21-22/1010:41> »
1. Does everyone need to spend an action in order to enact a combat maneuver? (or just the team leader were required to do so?)
It seem as if all members that want to be part of the combat maneuver also need to spend a minor action (if they already have the SUT knowledge skill) or a Major action (if they don't) in order to initiate it.
2. Is it all the move and attack in the discription of the combat maneuver was "narrative fluff", and all they do was roll dice and get the buff? (If so, that was kind of disappointing :/)
Perhaps easier if you let us know which specific maneuver you are thinking about.
the 1sr question is clear now, thanks :) For the second question though, I do have some scenarios in mind.

1. Diamond Formation is being enact before combat. Would the characters need to maintain the Diamond shape stand for the buff to be active?

2. If I enact Shield Walk, would I need to have someone with sheild to stand in the front? Or someone with shield is good enough? What happen if I got flank? Would I still have the buff from Shield Walk?

4. If I enact Suppressive Fire, would I need to have a character keep spraying bullets each turn? If they do need to spraying bullets each turn, would that required major/minor action and ammo to do so? Or a random BF attack would count? What happen if they run out of bullet or stop firing?

Let's use Suppressive Fire as example then. In Suppressive Fire, it stats that
Quote from: p.89, [SR6
Firing Squad]
Notes/Benefits: To perform this maneuver, the attackers must have full-auto-capable firearms and sufficient ammunition...Each target reduces their DR by the base Damage Value of the weapon...)

So, assuming it is the 1st round of the combat, Team member 1st would be the first the act, then enermy 1st, Leader, enermy 2nd, Team member 2nd, enermy 3rd, Team member 3rd. The Leader is about to enact the Suppressive Fire in his initiative.

My further question would be,
1. when would they spend the major/minor action? in their own initiative? Or by the time the leader roll combat maneuver? Or else?

2. "if all members that wish to take part of the same suppressive fire (that wish to gain from the bonus) will either spend a minor action" If so, for those teammate without FA weapons, can them be a part? How should I calculate the buff? Who's weapon is "the weapon"?

Xenon

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« Reply #3 on: <05-21-22/1118:06> »
1. Diamond Formation is being enact before combat. Would the characters need to maintain the Diamond shape stand for the buff to be active?
The effect of moving in Diamond Formation seem to be that they get a bonus on perception tests against ambush attempts and a +2 initiative score when combat starts. Once members are not actually moving in Diamond Formation it seem as if they will no longer gain the benefit of the Diamond Formation maneuver.

For example, if the squad arrive at a door where they think there might be baddies inside they will perhaps stop moving in Diamond Formation maneuver and instead the Squad Leader might instruct his squad to stack up and get read to execute a Dynamic Entry maneuver.

Once the room is cleared (with bonuses from the Dynamic Entry maneuver) the squad leader might instruct them to again line up in a Diamond Formation to be better prepped in case of an ambush while moving further into the facility.

If the squad later gain high ground on a group of baddies that haven't noticed them yet the Squad Leader might instruct the squad to again break up the Diamond Formation and instead set up an ambush by instructing squad members into Crossfire positions before all of them open fire at the same time.


2. If I enact Shield Walk, would I need to have someone with sheild to stand in the front? Or someone with shield is good enough?
If one person have a shield then it seem as if that person will gain a DR advantage (even without SUT).

But say he got SUT knowledge then it seem as if he can spend a major action to instruct a squad member (that will spend a major action to listen to the instructions) to move in unison. As long as they are now both moving together in a Shield Walk it seem as if they will now both take advantage of the extra DR from that one single shield (that normally, without this SUT maneuver, would only benefit the guy carrying the shield).


What happen if I got flank?
If enemies are successfully executing a Flank maneuver against the Shield Walking pair then it seem as if all participants in the Flank maneuver receives +2 to their AR (or +3 if the flank was undetected) while the flanked Shield Walking pair would get their DR reduced by 2.


Would I still have the buff from Shield Walk?
As long as you can take advantage of a shield you will typically receive extra DR from the shield. In some situations a GM might rule that you are not getting a DR bonus from having a shield. Flanking might or might not be such a situation (there is no rule stating such, it depend on the situation and GM fiat).


4. If I enact Suppressive Fire, would I need to have a character keep spraying bullets each turn?
The Suppressive Fire maneuver does not provide it's bonus once you decide to no longer provide Suppressive Fire.


If they do need to spraying bullets each turn, would that required major/minor action and ammo to do so?
A regular Major Attack Action with a weapon that is set to Full Auto Firing Mode (which seem to consume 10 rounds).


Or a random BF attack would count?
This SUT maneuver seem to require that participants are wielding weapons set to full auto firing mode (not burst firing mode).


What happen if they run out of bullet or stop firing?
The Suppressive Fire maneuver does not provide it's bonus once you decide to no longer provide Suppressive Fire. This is why Suppressive Fire is typically best provided with belt-fed MGs.


when would they spend the major/minor action? in their own initiative? Or by the time the leader roll combat maneuver? Or else?
It seem as if all members that also wish to participate in the same Suppressive Fire maneuver (if more than one) need to save up a Major Action. The combat maneuver then seem to be "performed on the lowest initiative score of the participants".

But if you have the SUT knowledge skill and just want to provide Suppressive Fire yourself (because you are perhaps also the only guy in the squad with a LMG) then it seem as if you just spend a minor action to activate Suppressive Fire maneuver (because if all team members participating in an SUT maneuver have the Small Unit Tactics knowledge skill, combat maneuvers are treated as minor actions) and then you take the maneuver test. Number of hits on the test seem to indicate number of suppressed targets that will have their DR reduced by half the base DV of your LMG (and AR by half of that). If you get 4 or more hits it also seem as if you gain a situational Edge due to that.

Then you spend regular Full Auto Major Attack Action(s) to actually attack.


teammate without FA weapons, can them be a part?
It seem as if a firearm with full auto firing mode is required if you want to provide Suppressive Fire.


How should I calculate the buff? Who's weapon is "the weapon"?
If you are wielding the LMG and is providing Suppressive Fire then the debuff your suppressed targets receive seem to be calculated from the base DV of your LMG.
« Last Edit: <05-21-22/1148:52> by Xenon »

marfish

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« Reply #4 on: <05-23-22/0536:35> »
I felt like I am more clearer, but still confused at the same time. Let me play out a scenario, please corrent me if I am wrong.

Assuming it is the 1st round of the combat, Team member one would be the first the act, then enermy one, Leader, enermy two, Team member two, enermy three, Team member three. The Leader is about to enact the Suppressive Fire. (Only the leader has SUT, and only Team member 2 have an FA weapon in this scenario)

So, Team member 1, Leader, Team member 2 would need to save up their Major Action until the initiative of Team member 3. Then they all spend their save-up Major Action to enact the Suppressive Fire, since only the team leader has SUT, so none of the teamate can assist. Let's say the Leader got the 2 success they need, so now the team member 2 would spend 10 round to conduct Suppressive Fire. The team would get the buff until the team member 2 run out of bullet.

Anything I got wrong here?
« Last Edit: <05-23-22/0539:40> by marfish »

MercilessMing

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« Reply #5 on: <05-23-22/1052:02> »
Since only Team member 2 is going to engage in the SUT, only their initiative matters and they don't need to wait till team member 3.

Suppressive Fire is probably the least important SUT for team members to act together, and I would personally ignore the requirement on that one.  I don't even like suppressive fire being a SUT, I would have made it a regular action or edge action.  But anyway, the purpose of the lowest initiative rule is so that coordinated action happens simultaneously and you avoid having movement formations broken by the nature of rpg initiative timing. 

If going on the lowest initiative doesn't feel right to you, a house rule you could adopt is that extra successes above the required threshold act as a bonus to initiative for the SUT action.

marfish

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« Reply #6 on: <05-23-22/1321:13> »
Since only Team member 2 is going to engage in the SUT, only their initiative matters and they don't need to wait till team member 3.

Suppressive Fire is probably the least important SUT for team members to act together, and I would personally ignore the requirement on that one.  I don't even like suppressive fire being a SUT, I would have made it a regular action or edge action.  But anyway, the purpose of the lowest initiative rule is so that coordinated action happens simultaneously and you avoid having movement formations broken by the nature of rpg initiative timing. 

If going on the lowest initiative doesn't feel right to you, a house rule you could adopt is that extra successes above the required threshold act as a bonus to initiative for the SUT action.

I am more concern about how the rule actually work (especially the "performed on the lowest initiative score of the participants" part), the writting feels off or miss something, and I can't find any other referent rule.

Well, more than a few components of the SUT rule is missing in my opinion.

Xenon

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« Reply #7 on: <05-23-22/1332:24> »
I too think that Suppressive fire would have been a great candidate as an Edge Action (requiring a Major Attack Action plus a firearm with at least 10 bullets and set to full auto firing mode - affected target's AR and DR debuffed for one round).



Only the leader has SUT, and only Team member 2 have an FA weapon in this scenario
In this scenario it looks like only Team member 2 will be applying suppressive fire (since "attackers must have full-auto-capable firearms and sufficient ammunition").

Squad leader will not perform the maneuver, instead he will just instruct Team member 2 on how to execute the maneuver (as "at least one team member must have the SUT knowledge skill as well as the Influence active skill (to perform a maneuver or instruct others how to perform it)")

Note that spend time and effort to prep a combat maneuver with someone else that does not have SUT does not seem to be efficient if you plan on doing it during on-going combat due to the high cost (as all participants basically lose an entire round just setting up the maneuver).


Having said that, this is how it seem as if it would be resolved:

Team member 1 act first. Using a non-FA weapon means that he does not seem to be eligible to help out providing suppressive fire.

Enemy one act next. Suppressive fire is not yet started so his AR is currently unaffected.

Then Squad Leader act next. He save his major action for later to instruct Team Member 2 on how to properly enact suppressive fire in a way that it will debuff their enemies (because the combat maneuver is "performed on the lowest initiative score of the participants"). If he got enough minor actions he can trade them for a regular attack.

Enemy two act next. Suppressive fire is not yet started so his AR is currently unaffected.

Then Team member 2 act. Squad Leader now spend his Major action to instruct Team Member 2 on how to properly enact the suppressive fire combat maneuver. Team member 2 spend his Major action to listen to the instructions. If Team member 2 have enough minor actions to trade in for a Major action he can already now fire 10 bullets while performing a FA attack. Two enemies were affected by the suppressive fire maneuver and would in that case get reduced DR when defending.

Then Enemy 3 act. If he happen to be one of the two targets affected by suppressive fire then his AR will be (slightly) reduced when attacking.

Followed by Team Member 3. If he happen to attack one of the two targets that are suppressed by Team member 2 then their DR will be reduced due to that.



Had instead Team member 2 switched firearms with Squad Leader (or if Squad Leader had a FA weapon of his own and Team member 2 that does not have SUT knowledge skill would just make a regular FA attack without participating in the suppressive fire maneuver) then the scenario would likely instead play out like this:

Team member 1 act first. Same as before.

Enemy one act next. Suppressive fire is not yet started so his AR is currently unaffected. Same as before.

Then Squad Leader act next. As he got SUT he only need to spend a Minor Action (instead of holding a Major action) to prep the suppressive fire combat maneuver. Then he (in the same combat turn) spend his Major Action to fire 10 bullets while performing a FA Attack. Two enemies were affected by the suppressive fire maneuver and get reduced DR when defending.

Enemy two act next. Assuming he was one of the two affected enemies his AR while attacking will be (slightly) reduced.

Then Team member 2 act. If he happen to attack any of the two targets that are suppressed then their DR will be reduced due to that.

Then Enemy 3 act.

Followed by Team Member 3.




If both Squad Leader and Team member 2 uses FA weapons and if both of them also have required skills then it would instead play out like this:

Team member 1 act first. Same as before.

Enemy one act next. Same as before.

Then Squad Leader act next. He save one of his minor actions (instead of a Major action) for later to enact the combat maneuver together with Team member 2 (because "If all team members participating in an SUT maneuver have the Small Unit Tactics knowledge skill, combat maneuvers are treated as minor actions"). He uses his Major action to perform a regular FA attack (without suppressive fire).

Enemy two act next. Suppressive fire is not yet started so his AR is currently unaffected.

Then Team member 2 act. Squad Leader now spend his saved Minor action to enact suppressive fire together with Team member 2 that also spend one of his Minor actions. As Team member 2 have required skills he assist Squad Leader with a Team Work test that perhaps result in a total of 3 hits, rather than 2. Team member 2 then fire 10 bullets while performing a FA attack. All enemies were affected by the suppressive fire maneuver get reduced DR when defending.

Then Enemy 3 act. All three targets will have (slightly) reduced AR when attacking.

Followed by Team Member 3. All three targets are affected by suppressive fire so all three of them will have reduced DR.
« Last Edit: <05-23-22/1404:38> by Xenon »

Xenon

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« Reply #8 on: <05-23-22/1418:26> »
Also, it also seem as if following (full auto) attack roll(s) by participating attackers will not just hit targets within a 1-meter radius anymore, but instead "the number of total hits determines how many targets the attackers can hit with an attack roll".

marfish

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« Reply #9 on: <05-24-22/0616:05> »
 ;D That slove me questions pretty will, thanks.