Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: ScytheKnight on <05-27-15/2021:33>
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So... I found myself wondering what it would cost to turn the best Comlink out there into half decent sleaze machine. Then comparing that to the cost of an equivalent Cyberdeck. The anwser by the way is about 1/5th the price.
Shiawase Cyber-5 DR: 5. AA: 8/7/6/5. Programs: 5. Availability: 15R. Cost: 549,375¥
Fairlight Caliban /w Hot-Sim
DR 7. Data Processing/Firewall: 7. Availability 18F. Cost 8,350¥
Non standard form factor. Availability: 20F Cost: 10,020¥
Rating 6 Stealth Dongle. Availability: 12R Cost: 108,000¥
Program Carrier Modification. Availability: 2. Cost, including parts, 1,400¥
Black Trenchcoat sleaze special
Device Rating 7. A/S/D/F 0/6/7/7. Programs: ? (1 cyberprogram hardwired). Availability: (Standard)18F (Non-Standard)20F. Cost: (Standard)117,750¥ (Non-Standard)119,420¥
The only real potential sticking point here is you''ll only have one hacking program hardwired, as unless things have changed Comlinks can't run hacking programs, and there's questions about how many programs it could run anyway.
Still, at under 120K you've got a Comlink, that potentially doesn't look like a Comlink for another 2K, that's almost as good as a practically 550K Cyberdeck as long as you're not trying to brick stuff.
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Encrypted files are a stumbling block. But yeah, it's a very functional sleaze machine. I don't think it really comes close to replacing the deck in terms of functionality, but for a non-decker looking to get his feet wet, it adds a lot of tools to the toolbox.
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If you're good enough to avoid being hit, take Virtual Machine as your hardwired program, and you can load two other programs of your choice.
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Yeah, but then again encrypted files tends to mean a Host, thus you're probably going to be wanting a full Cyberdeck anyway.
Wasn't ever meant to replace a full deck... but someone wanting to do some hacking on the side, especially pulling some fun with Bootstrap (which isn't a hacking program thus can be installed on it) and rebooting devices it's a pretty solid performer at a fraction of the price.
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I think commlinks can only run apps. But I guess you could put that one into your hardwire program module modification. I think you could even put a hacking program in it and still run it.
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You need to compare your link with a deck that run cyberprograms.
For example;
Toolbox = +1 data processing
Stealth = +1 sleaze
Encryption = +1 firewall
Renraku Tsurugi: 7/6/6/3 for 214,125¥
Your link: 7/7/6/0 (fixed attribute array!)
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Hmm, interesting, still cheaper though. Also was using the array format used by the specialized decks in Data Trails. Attack/Sleaze/Data Processing/Firewall
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Your format probably make more sense. I just listed the attributes in desc order. My remark was not aimed at you at all, just there to make it clear that a 'link is less flexible in this regard.
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The attribute array is likely only listed in Attack, Sleaze, Data Processing, Firewall order for consistency (and because it spells ASDF, which is a neat little reference in and of itself).
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Your format probably make more sense. I just listed the attributes in desc order. My remark was not aimed at you at all, just there to make it clear that a 'link is less flexible in this regard.
Ohh yeah, no doubting that it's less flexible.. no Attack means it can't do decription or toss data-spikes, thus no Cat's paw (NO LUCA! NO!). This is why I call it the "Black Trenchcoat Special" as by choosing Sleaze it can hide gear more effectively, place marks without alerting the victim and cause various chaos via GI-GO, Roobot, Format, etc without the telltale of a deck Icon (sure there's Wrapper but a successful Matrix Perception will reveal it's real nature anyway.)
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I kinda mentioned this in another thread, possibly in the Missions section. It's a great tool for B&E without the heavy investment in a deck. Logic 4 (6) + Hacking 4 (vs devices) and you easily have 10-12 dice against any rating 3 security device that you direct connect.
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To me, it sounds like the biggest potential of such a "sleaze-box" (or a "beat-box" like The Blue Offender (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=20892.0)) is to make street-level deckers semi-viable. This might also be a way for a player to get their feet wet in (a subset of) the matrix, rather than taking the plunge and risking it being a belly-flop.
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I have been too busy to sit down and read data trails properly but is the Comlink can't run programs still a thing when you can set them up with the hardware to have both attack and sleeze attributes?
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You can't have attack rating, sleaze rating and run cyberprograms at the same time on a commlink. But you can hardwire one program carrier module into the commlink that will run one cyberprogram and then get either one attack- or sleaze dongle.
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I like the idea of being able to send more low-end hackers at the players with the dongles. A ganger who has a R3 Attack Dongle on his Renraku Sensei doesn't need Sleaze if all he is meant to do is fuck with other people's wireless in a fight-- Something I could see gangs doing for an edge in a fight.
Allows for matrix "specialist" enemies for the group's hacker to fight come up more often, while both making sense economy-wise and not meaning that every enemy hacker is a four-month bonus from fencing their deck.
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xclnt observation, i'm using the ganger equipment wrecker.
how would you build his 'link?
I like the idea of being able to send more low-end hackers at the players with the dongles. A ganger who has a R3 Attack Dongle on his Renraku Sensei doesn't need Sleaze if all he is meant to do is fuck with other people's wireless in a fight-- Something I could see gangs doing for an edge in a fight.
Allows for matrix "specialist" enemies for the group's hacker to fight come up more often, while both making sense economy-wise and not meaning that every enemy hacker is a four-month bonus from fencing their deck.
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I could stat the grunt out. I'd consider him a Professional Rating 1 Lieutenant, as it'd be an uncommon opponent that requires a lot of skill and nuyen compares to your average ganger.
B A R S W L I C
3 3 3 3 4 5 4 3
Initiative: 6+1d6
CM 10
Armor 9
Skills: Blades 3, Computer (Matrix Perception) 3 (+2), Cybercombat (Devices) 3 (+2), Etiquette (Street) 3 (+2), Intimidation 4, Pistols 3
Qualities: Home Ground (Digital Turf)
Gear: Armor Vest [9]
Ares Light Fire 70 [Light Pistol, Acc 7, DV 6P, AP --, SA, RC --, 16 (c)]
Knife [Blade, Acc 5, Reach --, DV 4P, AP -1]
Renraku Sensei commlink w/ R3 Attack Dongle (Device Rating 3)
1 dose of jazz or cram
1 dose of psyche
His role would be to just find guns and commlinks and brick them, not to go toe to toe with another hacker. Still a ganger though, so he should be ready to shoot somebody up in a moment's notice, but the gun is a cheaper model than the usual one gangers have. While his dice pool for Cybercombat is much higher than most dice pools for gangers, it's still significantly lower than what a PC will have and is necessary due to how the matrix works (dice pools just need to be higher to get the basic stuff done).
This is for the more small time gangs of course, where most members have a metalink and are incredibly poor. More "middle class" gangs, like go-gangs and other ones where the members are better equipped would probably have a "sub-hacker" with up to R5 gear, probably. I could see a go-gang having someone like this, both for fucking other people's vehicles and to be able to fight back it someone tries to take their bikes from them via the matrix. At that level it'd probably have a modification, too. Maybe like a hardwired Vectored Signal Filter for NR in addition to the amount from the data jacks they'd have.
Once it gets up to like, Professional Rating 3 though, it would probably make more sense for a full-on decker with one of the cheaper decks, like the Little Hornet.
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Now that I like. The higher-rank Dongles seem like a very niche item, because at that point you might as well get a full deck - but a cheap dongle seems like it'll work nicely and thematically.
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Also if your commlink gets bricked you can just unplug the dongle plug it into your back up commlink and away you go only 5000 nuyen down, your bricked cyberdeck, no so much
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You can't have attack rating, sleaze rating and run cyberprograms at the same time on a commlink. But you can hardwire one program carrier module into the commlink that will run one cyberprogram and then get either one attack- or sleaze dongle.
Care to explain why not please as I'm not seeing why you can't have all 3. Attack/Sleeze Dongle, add a matrix attribute parts modification for the other attribute then run a program as normal. Unless of course this comes back to the commlinks can't run programs?
Although on that topic, I'm restarting that topic with the new datatrails info the discussion here http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=21020.0 (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=21020.0). Please take any debate on that topic over there so we don't derail this one.
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Because the rules on p. 66
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You can't have attack rating, sleaze rating and run cyberprograms at the same time on a commlink. But you can hardwire one program carrier module into the commlink that will run one cyberprogram and then get either one attack- or sleaze dongle.
Care to explain why not please as I'm not seeing why you can't have all 3. Attack/Sleeze Dongle, add a matrix attribute parts modification for the other attribute then run a program as normal. Unless of course this comes back to the commlinks can't run programs?
Although on that topic, I'm restarting that topic with the new datatrails info the discussion here http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=21020.0 (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=21020.0). Please take any debate on that topic over there so we don't derail this one.
Only 1 Modification per Device unless specifically stated otherwise. You have you use that Modification slot for a Program Module with Virtual Machine to run Cyberprograms on a Commlink. You can't Add a Matrix Attribute too.
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so you could have EvoTech Himitsu sleaze 5 and attack dongle 5 then a transys avalon all modded to accept cyberprogram module and have matrix attribute of 5s across the board and can run 4 programs
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nice one firebug!
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so you could have EvoTech Himitsu sleaze 5 and attack dongle 5 then a transys avalon all modded to accept cyberprogram module and have matrix attribute of 5s across the board and can run 4 programs
You can only have you Persona on One Device at a time.... so only the Device your Persona is running on is in use. Otherwise Deckers would all run their Cyberdecks through a Avalon or Caliban for the Firewall Attribute.
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so you could have EvoTech Himitsu sleaze 5 and attack dongle 5 then a transys avalon all modded to accept cyberprogram module and have matrix attribute of 5s across the board and can run 4 programs
You can only have you Persona on One Device at a time.... so only the Device your Persona is running on is in use. Otherwise Deckers would all run their Cyberdecks through a Avalon or Caliban for the Firewall Attribute.
Cant you have an agent running overwatch on the commlink?
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I was wondering that as well if your personas on the himitsu and it's slaved to a transys with an agent wouldn't you get that benefit? I normally play mages so I'm not sure how slaving works.
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Your persona cannot be a slave. Your persona will use the matrix attributes of the device it is formed on.
If this wasn't the case then all spider personas would use host ratings when defending ;)
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Your persona cannot be a slave. Your persona will use the matrix attributes of the device it is formed on.
If this wasn't the case then all spider personas would use host ratings when defending ;)
where does it even say that? arent spiders slaves to the hosts ok so wait if my friend is running a device rating 1 commlink he cant slave it to the deckers pan for protection? harsh
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That persona icons cannot be slaves in a PAN or WAN is mentioned on several locations.
SR5 p. 216 pan, slave, wan...
SR5 p. 233 PANs and WANs
SR5 p. 251 Living Persona
Your commlink, cyberdeck or RCC is the master device in your PAN.
You are the matrix owner of devices in your personal area network.
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So then how does slaving your device to the groups decker work?
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So then how does slaving your device to the groups decker work?
Technically, it doesn't, and for two reasons.
1. A persona can't be the master in a slave (which is why Technomancers can't slave devices to their Living Persona under RAW).
2. A device can only be slaved by the owner.
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I have been misinformed then I thought you could slave your comlink to the decker's deck for better security. So going by this on page 235 . . .
Personas are the “people” of the Matrix. Some personas are actually people, users and hackers who are connected to and using the Matrix. When a person uses a device to connect to the Matrix, the device’s icon is subsumed by the persona’s icon, so it’s basically gone from the Matrix until the persona jacks out. You can only run one persona at a time; switching requires you to reboot both the device you’re currently on and the device to which you want to shift your persona.
Some personas are agents, performing tasks on behalf of their owners. Agents running alone on a device replace the device icon the same way a living user does. If you’re running an agent along with your persona, it appears with its own separate persona, even though you’re using the same device. Each IC program has its own persona.
If you put an agent in a commlink it transforms from a device to a persona and can't be slaved rather annoying.
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People normally slave their own devices to their own commlink.
But if you trust your decker enough you could always make him the legit matrix owner of your device (such as you bike) and then let him slave it to his own ccommlink.....
Your right our persona can only be on one device at the time but an agent is a persona so why can slaving work?
You can't slave an agent either. You can only slave devices.
A slaved device might use master ratings when defending.
An agent cannot be a slave and cannot use master ratings when defending.
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I have to say a lot of these cool new options start to become utterly useless when you actually look at the rules governing them :-\ .
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Thats cause 5th edition matrix rules are a disjointed mess
That persona icons cannot be slaves in a PAN or WAN is mentioned on several locations.
SR5 p. 216 pan, slave, wan...
SR5 p. 233 PANs and WANs
SR5 p. 251 Living Persona
Your commlink, cyberdeck or RCC is the master device in your PAN.
You are the matrix owner of devices in your personal area network.
You know what? you really need to site your sources,
If you want extra protection for some of your devices,
you can slave them to your commlink or deck
guess what? commlinks and cyber decks are devices too which make them eligable to be slaved to, you guessed it other commlinks or cyberdecks
Oh wait so what you are saying is a RCC cant even be a slaved Device in a PAN there by making Riggers absolutely USESLESS cause they cant do anything while being hacked except defend oh
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I am saying a persona cannot be a slave in a PAN or WAN, only a device can be a slave in a PAN or WAN.
You cannot slave an agent, sprite, device based persona or living persona to a master device or host. Only a device.
A RCC is a device so it can be the master device for a rigger. Drones are devices. The rigger can slave his drones to his RCC. His drones may then use the firewall of his RCC for defence.
A rigger that base his persona on his RCC use matrix attributes provided by the RCC. The persona cannot be slaved to a host to use the firewall of the host if attacked or to the deckers cyberdeck for sleaze attribute to make it harder to spot. The persona will always use the firewall of the device it is formed on.
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I am saying a persona cannot be a slave in a PAN or WAN, only a device can be a slave in a PAN or WAN.
You cannot slave an agent, sprite, device based persona or living persona to a master device or host. Only a device.
A RCC is a device so it can be the master device for a rigger. Drones are devices. The rigger can slave his drones to his RCC. His drones may then use the firewall of his RCC for defence.
A rigger that base his persona on his RCC use matrix attributes provided by the RCC. The persona cannot be slaved to a host to use the firewall of the host if attacked or to the deckers cyberdeck for sleaze attribute to make it harder to spot. The persona will always use the firewall of the device it is formed on.
ok you know what answer this one question where in the book does it say a persona cannot be a slave in a pan site your proof
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I thought i just gave you several pages where they clearly state that only devices can be slaves in a PAN. I am typing from a smartphone atm so quoting from the book is pretty tricky. Was hoping to avoid that...........
SR5 p. 233 PANs and WANs
Only devices can be slaves, masters, or part of a PAN. In a WAN, the slaves must be devices, and the master must be a host.
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I still dont understand that logic you should be able to slave a cyberdeck to a commlink or your commlink to a cyber deck or a commlink to another commlink for protection
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There are three devices that can be used as the Master in a PAN: a Commlink; a Cyberdeck; or a Rigger Command Console (RCC). None of them can be a Slave in a PAN. Why? Put it down to the fact that all three have integrated Firewalls whilst none of the devices that can be slaved to them have one. Put it down to game balance. You could even put it down to GOD employing Pixies to sabotage every device that gets made.
The reason doesn't matter. In Shadowrun 5th Edition that's the way things are. As Threepio says to Chewbacca "Screaming about it won't help you".
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Rooks, you need to make up your mind omae.
SR5 p. 218 The population of the matrix
Every icon in the Matrix is one of six things: a persona, a device, a PAN, a file, a host, or a mark.
Are you talking about persona (that cannot be part of your PAN) or devices (that can be part of your PAN).
Your persona cannot be a slave. Your persona will use the matrix attributes of the device it is formed on...
where does it even say that...
Here we talk about persona, not device.
A persona cannot be part of your PAN.
That persona icons cannot be slaves in a PAN or WAN is mentioned on several locations...
...If you want extra protection for some of your devices, you can slave them to your commlink or deck...
Here I am talking about persona and you start to talk about devices??
A persona cannot be part of your PAN.
A device can be part of your PAN.
I am saying a persona cannot be a slave in a PAN or WAN, only a device can be a slave in a PAN or WAN...
ok you know what answer this one question where in the book does it say a persona cannot be a slave in a pan site your proof
Here we both talk about persona (not device).
A persona cannot be part of your PAN.
I still dont understand that logic you should be able to slave a cyberdeck to a commlink or ...
Now you are back to device...??
A device can be part of your PAN.
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There are three devices that can be used as the Master in a PAN: a Commlink; a Cyberdeck; or a Rigger Command Console (RCC). None of them can be a Slave in a PAN. Why? Put it down to the fact that all three have integrated Firewalls whilst none of the devices that can be slaved to them have one.
Just to clear this one up,
P. 226 Core rule book
"There are four Matrix attributes: Attack, Sleaze, Data Processing, and Firewall (abbreviated ASDF). Most devices (including commlinks) have only two Matrix attributes: Data Processing and Firewall. Decks and hosts have all four, including Attack and Sleaze."
Followed by clarification in Data Trails P. 66
"You can’t add a Matrix attribute to a device that already has that attribute. Remember that all devices have Data Processing and Firewall" emphasis mine.
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You can slave a commlink to your cyberdeck.
The commlink is a device.
The cyberdeck is a device.
A device can be part of your PAN.
Your commlink may use your cyberdeck's matrix attributs when defending (if they are higher).
You can base your persona on your commlink
Your persona based on your commlink will use matrix attributes of your commlink.
Your persona based on your commlink cannot be slaved to the cyberdeck.
A persona cannot be part of your PAN.
Your persona based on your commlink may NOT use your cyberdeck's matrix attributes when defending.
Clear enough...?
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Basically I can slave my commlink/cyberdeck to another commlink/cyberdeck unless I'm using it at the time in which case it transforms from a device to a persona which can't be slaved to another device. A condition which is odd and as I said renders a lot of the cool new toy's useless in practice.
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You can slave a commlink to your cyberdeck.
The commlink is a device.
The cyberdeck is a device.
A device can be part of your PAN.
Your commlink may use your cyberdeck's matrix attributs when defending (if they are higher).
You can base your persona on your commlink
Your persona based on your commlink will use matrix attributes of your commlink.
Your persona based on your commlink cannot be slaved to the cyberdeck.
A persona cannot be part of your PAN.
Your persona based on your commlink may NOT use your cyberdeck's matrix attributes when defending.
Clear enough...?
Nope, then again neither is the rules for the matrix (never ever explicity says persona cannot be a slave but even so) If I have EvoTech Himitsu and I am controlling it directly and I slave a Transys Avalon and someone starts hacking me, the Transys Avalon should be able to use its fire wall and device rating to defend against hacks then again the rules are a disjointed mess that need errataed badly
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Here's a weirder situation if somone manages to hack into that transys avalon does it transform from a device to a persona as their using it and thus alert you to the hack since your himitsu pops up a notification "Transys Avalon disconnected due to Persona/Slave conflict"?
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Hi to all,
Program Carrier Modification. Availability: 2. Cost, including parts, 1,400¥
one question, the program carrier modul is a cyberdeck modul, or? Can i put Cyberdeck modules in commlinks?
best regards Max
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You can hardwire one in, from page 66.
Add a Module: You can hardwire a cyberdeck module into a device. You need the module you want to add to the device. Most devices can only have one module, although cyberdecks can have two—one in the normal module slot, and the one you hardwire in. Hardwired modules follow the same rules as normal modules (p.64). This requires two packs of parts.
A commlink is a device therefore you can hardwire one cyberdeck module into it e.g. the program carrier module. Just remember unless its a cyberdeck you can only have one and it means you can't have any other modules so for any sleeze/attack programs to work you'd need to also have a sleeze or attack dongle.
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...never ever explicity says persona cannot be a slave...
Yes it does. It explicitly say that only a device can be a slave. Please read PANs and WANs. I even quoted it for you. The book is clear on this.
I have EvoTech Himitsu and I am controlling it directly and I slave a Transys Avalon and someone starts hacking me, the Transys Avalon should be able to use its fire wall and device rating....
If you base your persona on the Evotech then your persona (which is not a device so it can not be slaved) will have a firewall rating of 2. If your persona is attacked then your persona will defend with a firewall rating of 2. It will also have a sleaze attribute of 5 so you can now take illegal sleaze matrix actions.
If you base your persona on the Transys Avalon then your persona (which is not a device so it cannot be slaved) will appear in the matrix as a monarch. The monarch will have a firewall rating of 6 but it will not have a sleaze rating (unless you modify the link or attach a sleaze module).
If you could slave a persona to a device or host (which you can't!) then all spiders would run around with host rating firewalls all the time and deckers would always set their firewall lowest and just slave their persona to a high rating commlink. If you could slave a device or a persona to a persona (you can't!) then a TM would use edge to compile and register a high level courier sprite and slave all her devices and even her living persona to it for level+3 sleaze and level+2 firewall while defending.
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...never ever explicity says persona cannot be a slave...
Yes it does. It explicitly say that only a device can be a slave. Please read PANs and WANs. I even quoted it for you. The book is clear on this.
I have EvoTech Himitsu and I am controlling it directly and I slave a Transys Avalon and someone starts hacking me, the Transys Avalon should be able to use its fire wall and device rating....
If you base your persona on the Evotech then your persona (which is not a device so it can not be slaved) will have a firewall rating of 2. If your persona is attacked then your persona will defend with a firewall rating of 2. It will also have a sleaze attribute of 5 so you can now take illegal sleaze matrix actions.
If you base your persona on the Transys Avalon then your persona (which is not a device so it cannot be slaved) will appear in the matrix as a monarch. The monarch will have a firewall rating of 6 but it will not have a sleaze rating (unless you modify the link or attach a sleaze module).
If you could slave a persona to a device or host (which you can't!) then all spiders would run around with host rating firewalls all the time and deckers would always set their firewall lowest and just slave their persona to a high rating commlink. If you could slave a device or a persona to a persona (you can't!) then a TM would use edge to compile and register a high level courier sprite and slave all her devices and even her living persona to it for level+3 sleaze and level+2 firewall while defending.
Oh ok so personas have a fire wall rating and a data processing rating automatically and hosts are physical devices that spiders directly log in to also why the hell does a quarter of a millon dollar piece of hardware have lower matrix condition and a fire wall/dataprocessing rating than a smart phone that costs a fraction of the cost?
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Oh ok so personas have a fire wall rating and a data processing rating automatically
They have the same matrix attributes that the device they are based on. A persona based on a cyberdeck will for example have all four matrix attributes...
and hosts are physical devices that spiders directly log in to
No, you log into a grid. Hosts are virtual matrix only entities that you can enter from the grids (they exists on all grids at once).
also why the hell does a quarter of a millon dollar piece of hardware have lower matrix condition and a fire wall/dataprocessing rating than a smart phone that costs a fraction of the cost?
A standard cyberdeck have same or higher matrix ratings than a standard commlink, if you compare two that have same device rating that is.
The cyberdeck is more expensive because, unlike a standard commlink, a cyberdeck can run an agent, common cyberprograms, hacker cyberprograms, alter it's matrix attribute array on the fly, have both an attack- and sleaze-rating, come with a wire that can be used to bypass host ratings on slaved devices and have a cyberdeck module slot.
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No, you log into a grid. Hosts are virtual matrix only entities that you can enter from the grids (they exists on all grids at once).
Just a point of clarification, but a host exists on a specific grid, you just don't have to be on the same grid to log into one.
Each host is on a specific grid
Once you're inside, the grid you're on doesn't matter (unless it's the public grid, in which case you still suffer the -2 penalty to Matrix Actions).
Otherwise, I think your points are 100% accurate Xenon.
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You can slave a commlink to your cyberdeck.
The commlink is a device.
The cyberdeck is a device.
A device can be part of your PAN.
Your commlink may use your cyberdeck's matrix attributs when defending (if they are higher).
You can base your persona on your commlink
Your persona based on your commlink will use matrix attributes of your commlink.
Your persona based on your commlink cannot be slaved to the cyberdeck.
A persona cannot be part of your PAN.
Your persona based on your commlink may NOT use your cyberdeck's matrix attributes when defending.
If that's true:
A rigger slaves his drones to a RCC
A rigger goes online forming a persona on the RCC which replaces the RCC device in the matrix
A persona cannot be part of a PAN
The drones are not slaved anymore and he can't use the features of the RCC.
Makes sense... ::)
And a decker loses his ability to help his team with matrix security by slaving their commlinks the moment he goes online... ;D
If you don't include 'personas based on a device' to the things that can be part of a PAN or WAN the whole setting and rules make absolutely no sense. ;)
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For all we know the physical device is still slaved to the physical device, even if the matrix device icon is merged into your persona icon if you later form your persona on it.
But yes the whole device icon merge into your persona icon is something i still don't fully grasp (what if you enter a host - is there now really no way to mark your commlink except going into the same host??)
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Personally, I think the whole "your persona icon subsumes the device icon" thing is totally unnecessary. Strip that part out and everything works great. Commlinks/Decks can still serve as masters and they don't disappear from the rest of the matrix if you enter a Host. It opens up the possibility that you could be attacked from multiple sources (IC in a host, security decker on the grid) but you already potentially have that problem if you run an agent.
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Personally, I think the whole "your persona icon subsumes the device icon" thing is totally unnecessary. Strip that part out and everything works great. Commlinks/Decks can still serve as masters and they don't disappear from the rest of the matrix if you enter a Host. It opens up the possibility that you could be attacked from multiple sources (IC in a host, security decker on the grid) but you already potentially have that problem if you run an agent.
/signed
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You can slave a commlink to your cyberdeck.
The commlink is a device.
The cyberdeck is a device.
A device can be part of your PAN.
Your commlink may use your cyberdeck's matrix attributs when defending (if they are higher).
You can base your persona on your commlink
Your persona based on your commlink will use matrix attributes of your commlink.
Your persona based on your commlink cannot be slaved to the cyberdeck.
A persona cannot be part of your PAN.
Your persona based on your commlink may NOT use your cyberdeck's matrix attributes when defending.
If that's true:
A rigger slaves his drones to a RCC
A rigger goes online forming a persona on the RCC which replaces the RCC device in the matrix
A persona cannot be part of a PAN
The drones are not slaved anymore and he can't use the features of the RCC.
Makes sense... ::)
And a decker loses his ability to help his team with matrix security by slaving their commlinks the moment he goes online... ;D
If you don't include 'personas based on a device' to the things that can be part of a PAN or WAN the whole setting and rules make absolutely no sense. ;)
More like Rigger slaves his drones to his RCC making RCC the master device and creates a special rigger style PAN where the RCC manages several parallel connections at once, so you can give a command to one, all, of the slave drones with the same Simple Action and this parallel multi-connection also lets you jump from one slaved drone to another without first jumping out of the drone you’re leaving or rebooting the device because your persona was removed from it. The special RCC PAN also allows a slaved device to use either its own or its master’s Rating for each Rating in the test but if you get a mark on the device you also get a mark on the RCC
Now when it comes to security spider riggers they dont use PANs but WANs
with multiple devices slaved to a host. This is the world of
that special kind of rigger, the security spider. They slave
their RCC to the building’s host and connect to the entire
security system, including all of its slaved drones. When
you’re inside a host, your effective “physical distance” to
drones slaved to that host becomes zero, even if you’re
on the other side of the world. The spider-rigger is often
teamed up with a spider-decker to help against hacking
intrusions on the security system.
So you can Slave a RCC to a host provided you are a security rigger spider
my understanding is the persona is the "Soul" of a entity in the matrix the device (which can be one of four things, a commlink a cyberdeck a RCC or a device that has been modified to accept a persona firmware) and is the physical representation of said persona in the meat world
icons are a matrix representation of devices in the matrix with no persona attached to it
So with that in mind I supposed you can only slave devices to a deckers cyberdeck for defense and either turn your commlink wifi off or turn it off completely or get a throw away so you dont stand out too much in public as someone without a persona and a back up when your decker isnt running matrix defense for you (course considering it all wireless you and your decker dont have to be close in even in the same continent for the decker to defend your devices running wireless which provides and interesting opportunity to have these deckers hire out their services to run matrix protection against other cyber attacks
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Oh ok so personas have a fire wall rating and a data processing rating automatically
They have the same matrix attributes that the device they are based on. A persona based on a cyberdeck will for example have all four matrix attributes...
and hosts are physical devices that spiders directly log in to
No, you log into a grid. Hosts are virtual matrix only entities that you can enter from the grids (they exists on all grids at once).
also why the hell does a quarter of a millon dollar piece of hardware have lower matrix condition and a fire wall/dataprocessing rating than a smart phone that costs a fraction of the cost?
A standard cyberdeck have same or higher matrix ratings than a standard commlink, if you compare two that have same device rating that is.
The cyberdeck is more expensive because, unlike a standard commlink, a cyberdeck can run an agent, common cyberprograms, hacker cyberprograms, alter it's matrix attribute array on the fly, have both an attack- and sleaze-rating, come with a wire that can be used to bypass host ratings on slaved devices and have a cyberdeck module slot.
oh ya, so for your consideration:
Transys Avalon 6 12 5,000¥
3000 in packs add attribute
The Increase a Matrix Attribute modification
can later be added to this modification
Packs to increase attribute 1000
Matrix attribute Dongle 3 27000
Total cost 36000 Matrix attributes Data processing 6 Firewall 6 Attack 4 Stealth 2/Stealth 4 Attack 2 Matrix condition boxes 9
+21 000 if you want +1 rating dongle so 57000
vs
Microdeck Summit attribute array 4 3 3 1 programs 1 3R 58,000¥ Matrix condition boxes 8 or 9 if you round up
Microtrónica Azteca 200 Attribute array 5 4 3 2 programs 2 110,250¥ Matrix condition boxes 9
Hermes Chariot Attribute array 5 4 4 2 programs 2 123,000¥ Matrix condition boxes 9
Microtrónica Azteca 300 Attribute array 7 5 3 1 programs 3 9R 200,000¥ Matrix condition boxes 8 or 9 if you round up
Shiawase Cyber-4 Attribute array 8 6 4 2 Programs 3 12R 331,000¥ Matrix condition boxes 10
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Personally, I think the whole "your persona icon subsumes the device icon" thing is totally unnecessary. Strip that part out and everything works great. Commlinks/Decks can still serve as masters and they don't disappear from the rest of the matrix if you enter a Host. It opens up the possibility that you could be attacked from multiple sources (IC in a host, security decker on the grid) but you already potentially have that problem if you run an agent.
That would mean that your Commlink could be attacked at 2 separate places from the Matrix as well as why would you ever do it in the first place??? The Matrix Rules make total sense (not counting the atrocious Techomancer bullshit) for Deckers & Devices. All the issues that people are claiming to have are from having problems breaking the rules with obvious gaming the system if not just outright trying to cheat it. There are a lot of cool things introduced in Data Trails for Deckers & non Deckers (though TMs get the shafts since there's supposed to be a Splatbook coming out for them.) But doing things like trying to string 3 Commlinks together with Dongles & Modifications to get Cyberdecks IS NOT something that they were EVER trying to achieve!!!
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Oh ok so personas have a fire wall rating and a data processing rating automatically
They have the same matrix attributes that the device they are based on. A persona based on a cyberdeck will for example have all four matrix attributes...
and hosts are physical devices that spiders directly log in to
No, you log into a grid. Hosts are virtual matrix only entities that you can enter from the grids (they exists on all grids at once).
also why the hell does a quarter of a millon dollar piece of hardware have lower matrix condition and a fire wall/dataprocessing rating than a smart phone that costs a fraction of the cost?
A standard cyberdeck have same or higher matrix ratings than a standard commlink, if you compare two that have same device rating that is.
The cyberdeck is more expensive because, unlike a standard commlink, a cyberdeck can run an agent, common cyberprograms, hacker cyberprograms, alter it's matrix attribute array on the fly, have both an attack- and sleaze-rating, come with a wire that can be used to bypass host ratings on slaved devices and have a cyberdeck module slot.
oh ya, so for your consideration:
Transys Avalon 6 12 5,000¥
3000 in packs add attribute
The Increase a Matrix Attribute modification
can later be added to this modification
Packs to increase attribute 1000
Matrix attribute Dongle 3 27000
Total cost 36000 Matrix attributes Data processing 6 Firewall 6 Attack 4 Stealth 2/Stealth 4 Attack 2 Matrix condition boxes 9
+21 000 if you want +1 rating dongle so 57000
vs
Microdeck Summit attribute array 4 3 3 1 programs 1 3R 58,000¥ Matrix condition boxes 8 or 9 if you round up
Microtrónica Azteca 200 Attribute array 5 4 3 2 programs 2 110,250¥ Matrix condition boxes 9
Hermes Chariot Attribute array 5 4 4 2 programs 2 123,000¥ Matrix condition boxes 9
Microtrónica Azteca 300 Attribute array 7 5 3 1 programs 3 9R 200,000¥ Matrix condition boxes 8 or 9 if you round up
Shiawase Cyber-4 Attribute array 8 6 4 2 Programs 3 12R 331,000¥ Matrix condition boxes 10
Failing to see the point here... A. Commlink can't run Programs & B. The fixed Attribute Decks are much cheaper that the non-fixed ones when counting by a straight Attribute total as well as generally having a higher Program count. It's all about Game Balance... Decks are supposed to be a huge chunk of Chargen, just like Cyber is Street Sams or Magic for Mages or Control Rig/Drones are for a Rigger. What you are advocating for is completely overpowered... it'd be the CoDzilla of Shadowrun.
CoDzilla is an old D&D term for Clerics & Druid who were actually designed specifically to be stronger than all other classes by Gary Gygax himself. They are classes that were commonly played as GM PCs or someone's girlfriend (I know I always made them play a Cleric.) But in the hands of a good Powergamer they can easily be Game Breakers... I know that as well since if I was denied the chance to use Psionics in a game, I'd make a CoDzilla to break it.
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Personally, I think the whole "your persona icon subsumes the device icon" thing is totally unnecessary. Strip that part out and everything works great. Commlinks/Decks can still serve as masters and they don't disappear from the rest of the matrix if you enter a Host. It opens up the possibility that you could be attacked from multiple sources (IC in a host, security decker on the grid) but you already potentially have that problem if you run an agent.
Agreed.
I don't see the game mechanic advantage of the merging icons. At all. Only potential issues.
For example what if a drone is slaved to a host, security rigger base his persona on his rcc, enter host with his persona and then use the direct connection from the host to jump into the drone.
If you find the rcc you still can't spot it's device icon because it is merged into the security riggers persona. You can't spot the security riggers persona since it is inside a host. If you find the drone you can't spot it's device icon since it is merged into the security riggers persona and since the security rigger have not used exit host (if he jump out of the device then he will still be inside the host) you might or might not see his persona icon out on the grid.... how do you even know which host the persona entered.
If you slave a smartgun to a commlink and then base your persona on the commlink. Then the device icon will be transformed into a persona icon. A persona cannot be part of a PAN... does this mean the smartlink is no longer slaved to your commlink...? Can the smartgun still be slaved if you form a persona on the commlink and then use the persona to enter a host. Do the matrix icon even have anything to do with slaving in the first place or is it a non matrix action you perform on a device that doesn't even require that you have a persona in the first place.
So many potential issues and situations that you would fully avoid if the device still have its icon on the grid even if you base your Persona on it.....
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That would mean that your Commlink could be attacked at 2 separate places from the Matrix as well as why would you ever do it in the first place???
So basically, like what could already happen in SR4 and what can already happen in SR5 if you're running an agent. So, no problem and there are obviously reasons to do it if that's how the rules worked in the first place. I mean, you're a decker, you probably would want to break into a host at some point.
All the issues that people are claiming to have are from having problems breaking the rules with obvious gaming the system if not just outright trying to cheat it.
No, they aren't and that's quite a comprehensive statement. Most of the legitimate issues come from unclear writing. PANS and WANS as well as Ownership are both terribly unclear and have been the source of many arguments on these boards. Sadly, Data Trails really doesn't clarify either.
But doing things like trying to string 3 Commlinks together with Dongles & Modifications to get Cyberdecks IS NOT something that they were EVER trying to achieve!!!
Um, agreed? I'm not sure where I ever gave the impression that I agreed with that... it's funny, because we're just rehashing arguments many of us have already had on these forums for the last two or so years. Most of the arguing comes from two sources: people out and out trying to game the system (Slaving deck to commlink to get a Firewall boost while still running a persona on the deck) and people disagreeing over rules interpretations (whether the PAN relationship is a purely Matrix-based one composed of icons or whether the use of the word device is supposed to refer to actual physical devices).
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[quote author=I_AM_ZHOUL!!! link=topic=20870.msg378516#msg378516 date=1434611813
Failing to see the point here... A. Commlink can't run Programs & B. The fixed Attribute Decks are much cheaper that the non-fixed ones when counting by a straight Attribute total as well as generally having a higher Program count. It's all about Game Balance... Decks are supposed to be a huge chunk of Chargen, just like Cyber is Street Sams or Magic for Mages or Control Rig/Drones are for a Rigger. What you are advocating for is completely overpowered...
[/quote]
So that street level campaigns can have decking options? so that they dont have to take priority level A and get a crappy deck and thats it? and what I am "advocating" is already in the game ya commlinks dont have the ability to run programs or swap attributes oh no I dont get plus one to a matrix attribute boohoo ok it does suck that you cant have baby monitor running or fork a matrix ability or +2 to a specific ability or cant run agents, but at least it gives a feesable reason for someone to have hacking ability and not access to a quarter million at character start (like street campaigns generally do) otherwise how did you even get a deck?
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You could get a limit of 4, increased by swiching in the correct cyberprograms to 5 or even 6 (which is good for a dice pool of 16+ dice), on your primary matrix attribute for ~50.000¥ ...using standard cyberdecks and core rules.
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You could get a limit of 4, increased by swiching in the correct cyberprograms to 5 or even 6 (which is good for a dice pool of 16+ dice), on your primary matrix attribute for ~50.000¥ ...using standard cyberdecks and core rules.
Always the Voice of Logic....
[quote author=I_AM_ZHOUL!!! link=topic=20870.msg378516#msg378516 date=1434611813
Failing to see the point here... A. Commlink can't run Programs & B. The fixed Attribute Decks are much cheaper that the non-fixed ones when counting by a straight Attribute total as well as generally having a higher Program count. It's all about Game Balance... Decks are supposed to be a huge chunk of Chargen, just like Cyber is Street Sams or Magic for Mages or Control Rig/Drones are for a Rigger. What you are advocating for is completely overpowered...
So that street level campaigns can have decking options? so that they dont have to take priority level A and get a crappy deck and thats it? and what I am "advocating" is already in the game ya commlinks dont have the ability to run programs or swap attributes oh no I dont get plus one to a matrix attribute boohoo ok it does suck that you cant have baby monitor running or fork a matrix ability or +2 to a specific ability or cant run agents, but at least it gives a feesable reason for someone to have hacking ability and not access to a quarter million at character start (like street campaigns generally do) otherwise how did you even get a deck?
[/quote]
If you are in a "street level" campaign then you shouldn't be using a quarter million dollar deck or anything else that gives you a facsimile of a quarter million dollar deck. If that's what you need to accomplish your missions that you are in a regular level campaign. Dongles & a Program Module with Virtual Machine on it would be an appropriate piece of gear to use there. 3 different Commlinks daisy chained to use different Modules & Dongles to simulate a quarter million dollar deck is broken.
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Came up with a build...tell me what you think.
0300 Forearm Guard
0300 YNT Softweave
5000 Fresnel Fabric Rating 5
5250 Transys Avalon w/hotsim
3000 Level 1 Stealth Dongle
0500 (Electronic Parts)
0900 Program Module: Smoke And Mirrors
--------
15,250
besides providing a +1 Armor and having one capacity left over (Would have loved if you could add a datatap, but AR Gloves or Trodes if my reading is right would be fitting. Note that you could basically be rocking a 6/6/6/- with this thing
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(i might totally misunderstood what i am about to quote, in that case I'll take this opportunity to apologize in advance ;))
Would have loved if you could add a datatap,
You mean the Cable Tap Commlink Dongle.......?
but AR Gloves or Trodes if my reading is right would be fitting.
This have nothing to do with datatap (or cable tap for that matter).
Either you have DNI (by wearing trodes, or having an implanted datajack, commlink, or cyberdeck SR5 p. 222) or you use AR glove, image link and ear buds to experience AR.
If you want to experience cold-sim or hot-sim VR (and since you mod it with a forbidden hot-sim module i guess you are) then you are required to have DNI (you have no use for AR glove, image link and ear buds if you have DNI).
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I was looking at it as an armor mod. When talking about the trodes or datatap. The armor has 1 capacity left over
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Ahh. I now see :)
Well in Core; Trodes take up 2 capacity in a helmet.
(Unless of course Run n Gun changed things).
You can probably attach the cable in your cyberdeck to a datatap... and leave it there. Once you run into a device that is wired you can then attach the datatap directly to the cable and get a direct connection to both devices the cable is connected to. You can also mod your cyberdeck so you only have to physically place it against a device to get a direct connection to it.
Maybe you can use your last capacity to fit a sensor of some sort....?
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R&G breaks it down by function, not what sort of armor can take what sort of accessory. You can't put AR gloves [1] in your helmet, even though that's not actually specified. Similarly, you can't put trodes in something that doesn't touch your head. Interestingly, trodes in R&G are listed as taking Capacity [1], not [2] like it mentions in core. I don't think either value has been subject of errata, but the Capacity table in R&G has its own issues, so I'd defer to core.
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If im reading correctly, you can't use the program carrier on a commlink as it is listed in the cyberdeck's dongle and not in the commlink's ones.
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If im reading correctly, you can't use the program carrier on a commlink as it is listed in the cyberdeck's dongle and not in the commlink's ones.
The rules in page 66 allows you to add a cyberdeck mdule to a commlink ^^
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You're right, I forgot that.
However the core rulebook says that programs are made for cyberdecks right? "Programs (technically cyberprograms if they’re for the Matrix) are files you can run on your deck" So I'm not sure if the program in the program carrier would even work.
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program carrier isn't just a memory unit, it's also a processor dedicated to running the selected program.
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So just looking at Chargen options, around 100k Budget.
Transys Avalon with Rating 4 Stealth Dongle, Program Carrier Mod with Virtual Toolbox - Smoke and Mirrors&Stealth.
You've got a Persona with A: - ;S:10; D:6; F:6. and 5 points of noise. 85k+ program carrier (but see below...)
vs. Little Hornet with two Program Carriers (Stealth and Encryption).
Stats are 5 4 1 1 with a permanent +1 to Sleaze and Firewall. 89,700 plus 2*Program carriers + costs of programs.
Same ballpark cost for a resources A character.
Upsides to the Commlink, touch cheaper. Goes places the Cyberdeck doesn't. Can be much cheaper if you drop the rating on the Sleaze Dongle. - 8 6 6 would cost 25k + program carrier. So if you're trying to do a resources B Decker, or street level decker, this is probably the best option. Also not a bad back up for a Resources A decker with a little spare cash.
Downsides to the Commlink. File protection stops you cold, you'll have to use Edge on each and every protected file. No other programs, like Browse, Signal Scrub, or Agents. 1/2 search time inside a Host while on a hack is huge. Agents are damn handy. Also, you can't do squat about VR Technomancers and Sprites. Not a thing. Sit there and get abused or go wireless off, those are your two choices. Several of the better Decker positive qualities are n/a for Commlinks.
My friend the Little Hornet. With Perfect Time and Overclocker, you really only care about one stat. You'll have a limit of 6 (7 if you've got time to load the appropriate program) for any Attack or Data Processing action, 7 Firewall, up to 12 Sleaze. Downsides, karma costs of Perfect Time and Overclocker. Crap PAN compared to the Commlink. This is a deck that will work for most Deckers until they start hitting dice pools of 20 routinely.
Honestly for an experienced player there isn't much reason to go with a Cyberdeck if you didn't want to. - 8 6 6 for 25k frees up a tremendous amount of resources. Metahuman Deckers that are down to Resources C or B, or a Decker with a full Samurai Suite of Augments can probably get by with a Sleaze Dongle Commlink. You've got more than enough limits to AR hack devices, no real issues with hacking a Host other than File Protection. And likely 16ish dice to resist Matrix Perception when you're running silent, so until you blow a Sleaze roll, or the dice bounce the other way, you're invisible.
The actual "problem" is Smoke and Mirrors and +5 Sleaze, because - 3 6 6 isn't a viable array for a Decker. And if you go with a Rating 4 or 5 Sleaze Dongle, you could just as well get the Little Hornet or another low end Cyberdeck.
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The other problem is noise, that's where an actual deck wins out by a long stretch. You either pay deck money for a dongle and then use all your antenna and datajack slots to get you back to zero, or you buy a deck, have decent sleaze and then have actual noise reduction
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Noise isn't much of a concern if you use Fresnel Fabric. 7 points of noise reduction in addition to all other options should be enough for almost any situation.
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Noise isn't much of a concern if you use Fresnel Fabric. 7 points of noise reduction in addition to all other options should be enough for almost any situation.
which you can't get at chargen and only appears to mitigate noise related to distance to a specific target device, not a generic NR bonus
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There's nothing about distance in the text, only that it's directional (which is exactly what you need to punch through interfering signals)
Restricted gear makes it possible out of chargen (preferably as part of fancy armor)
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There's nothing about distance in the text, only that it's directional (which is exactly what you need to punch through interfering signals)
Restricted gear makes it possible out of chargen (preferably as part of fancy armor)
Think what he means is its Avail 14 so you gotta burn a restrictive item quality to get it
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Yes. Depending on your GM you might get away with a very specialized bit of armor that has all kinds of stuff integrated.
That said, it's usually not much of a problem to gain a coat or armor bag with this modification after play starts.
The new ponchos from Hard Targets are a prime candidate for that.
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Yeah, you've got to line it up with the thing you're trying to connect to, so it mitigates area noise at source and destination. I would highly doubt it cancels out noise made by your own software
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Beside the fact that the rules are silent about that, the software noise can be compensated with the other things like receiver, datajack(s), etc.
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Beside the fact that the rules are silent about that, the software noise can be compensated with the other things like receiver, datajack(s), etc.
Run and gun pg 85:
Reduce the Noise penalty by the rating of the Fabric. The
Noise reduction is directional and the wearer needs to align
their body in the direction of the device they are trying to
connect with (emphasis mine)
pretty clear to me. it only works for external noise when you're trying to connect to a device in a known location.
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Yes, and the quoted text does not mention that the source of the noise is of any relevance. What it says is you have to turn into the direction of the thing you want to connect with to compensate any noise at either end.
I agree with you that logically "software noise" should be handled differently or rather that smoke and mirrors shouldn't use noise in the first place but a separate dice penalty, but the designers wrote it as noise and therefore all sources of noise compensations work by RAW
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Well, what Fresnel Fabric allows is an early upgrade to a decker after a couple runs that lets the Fabric handle "outside" noise while the Datajacks and Antenna handle the penalty from Smoke and Mirrors.
It's not particularly expensive, and the Availability is well within the reach of most Fixers. 6,000 Nuyen and Availability 14? Throw it in a 900 Nuyen Cloak from Hard Targets and get your Cape on!
Really not necessary for a Decker to have out of the gate, you can always dial back the Smoke and Mirrors a tick if you're in a very noisy area. Really what GM is going to throw a high noise penalty at a starting decker on the first couple runs?