Shadowrun

Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Cass100199 on <05-24-11/0943:11>

Title: Carbines and SMG's
Post by: Cass100199 on <05-24-11/0943:11>
Why are carbines listed under SMG's. A carbine is just a shortened version of an assault rifle and typically has the same range, stopping power, etc. An SMG uses pistol ammo. They are not the same. So what was the justification for lumping them together?
Title: Re: Carbines and SMG's
Post by: JoeNapalm on <05-24-11/1016:52>
I'll probably be smote into oblivion for stating this, but...I would guess, from what I've seen, that the writers weren't really experts on firearms.

Professional Knowledge - Game Design 6 ( RPGs 8 )

Professional Knowledge - Firearms Design 2

I'm not saying that to be a jerk, or to claim that I am an expert...(but I am a professional)...I can say that their nomenclature and many design details relating to the in-game weapons are definitely game-centric, rather than realistically oriented.

Which I am FINE with, by the way - there's also Elves and Trolls and Dragons.

My guess is that they did a bit of research and read that carbines are often chambered for a smaller round than their full-sized counterparts, and extrapolated that into the result you see.  Or...just figured they were smaller and therefore shoot smaller bullets.

Or they decided that a SMG-sized weapon firing Rifle damage rounds would make all SMGs obsolete.

Dunno. If I wanted realistic weapon damage, I guess I'd dust off CP2020, again and house-rule in Dragons.

Anyway - my solution was to use the AR rules for weapon modification to build an SBR. Yeah, I use a lot of my modification slots to make the weapon smaller, but I get the power of a rifle in the SMG-sized package.

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
Title: Re: Carbines and SMG's
Post by: Cass100199 on <05-24-11/1105:29>
I think what I'll do is just give carbine AR damage and use the stats in the books for the subs (ex.: the Colt sub in 9mm or .45 ACP).
Title: Re: Carbines and SMG's
Post by: KarmaInferno on <05-24-11/1135:14>
I'll probably be smote into oblivion for stating this, but...I would guess, from what I've seen, that the writers weren't really experts on firearms.

Nah, this is pretty much old news.

The gun nuts complain about pretty much every new gear book that comes out because of this.



-k
Title: Re: Carbines and SMG's
Post by: farothel on <05-24-11/1221:51>
If you have a shorter weapon, that means that it will have less range, as barrel lenght is proportional to range (other factors play also of course).  It will also mean that the round probably has less velocity, hence a bit less damage.  Is this enough to classify carbines with the SMGs?  I don't know, but they are less powerful as full assault riffles, otherwise armies would take those, as smaller weapons are easier to use (and weigh less).

That's also why bullpup designs (action behind the trigger group, giving you a shorter weapon for the same barrel lenght) are so popular with urban fighters (like SWAT and other counter-terror groups), as they pack the same punch for a shorter and therefore more manouverable weapon (specially in buildings).
Title: Re: Carbines and SMG's
Post by: Cass100199 on <05-24-11/1228:44>
If you have a shorter weapon, that means that it will have less range, as barrel lenght is proportional to range (other factors play also of course).  It will also mean that the round probably has less velocity, hence a bit less damage.  Is this enough to classify carbines with the SMGs?  I don't know, but they are less powerful as full assault riffles, otherwise armies would take those, as smaller weapons are easier to use (and weigh less).

That's also why bullpup designs (action behind the trigger group, giving you a shorter weapon for the same barrel lenght) are so popular with urban fighters (like SWAT and other counter-terror groups), as they pack the same punch for a shorter and therefore more manouverable weapon (specially in buildings).

That's not entirely true. The M4 Carbine has a negligible range difference from the standard M16 (I think it's about 50m). The stopping power of a weapon is based on caliber, not the rifle. The US military has commonly fielded a carbine for several years now as its standard weapon.

The bullpup thing isn't popular in the states. Commonly, a variation of the AR style carbine is used or an SMG of some sort.
Title: Re: Carbines and SMG's
Post by: Mäx on <05-24-11/1253:22>
So what was the justification for lumping them together?
The same as lumping all SMG:s together,all AR:s together and all machine pistols together, so mostly game balance and the fact that damage range of all guns is too small to have more different categories with their own DV and AP values.
So automatics are divided in 3 size categories and only have one DV and AP value for each category.
Title: Re: Carbines and SMG's
Post by: Cass100199 on <05-24-11/1315:52>
And this is why caliber information would be useful.
Title: Re: Carbines and SMG's
Post by: Mäx on <05-24-11/1326:20>
And this is why caliber information would be useful.
Well you pretty much would have to redesing the whole weapons stat system from ground up if you want to make use of caliber information.
But this is mostly a balance issue(Carbins being lumped with SMG:s), after all an SMG that has the same damage code as a battle rifle would be kinda OP.
Title: Re: Carbines and SMG's
Post by: savaze on <05-24-11/1340:29>
Though the military says the M4 has the same range as the M16 it does not... The round may travel roughly as far in either platform, it's effective range is a whole lot shorter in the carbine due to that whole losing up to 8" of barrel. The M4 can't even use the same zeroing techniques for the M16 because it's not nearly as accurate. The carbine is usually in lighter rifle/pdw rounds, but there are aftermarket conversions to pistol calibers (some are starting to come stock in them).

I'm in the process of expanding the firearms rules, by:

I've tested the guns to the canon and so far it all fits fairly well, except for some of the damage changes I did on larger calibers and the effects of recoil/AP with calibers in different platforms. I'm sitting on it now and seeing if I can balance it any more, then I'll get around to remembering my Excel skills so I can make it a lot more simplified (a series of drop-down lists that spout the info on the side). I've thought of redoing concealability rules for firearms, but that's just as large a project and a little more far reaching...
Title: Re: Carbines and SMG's
Post by: Cass100199 on <05-24-11/1345:04>
The only difference in accuracy for an m16 and m4 is after 300m. I've been shooting both for the past 12 years.

The rules sound interesting.
Title: Re: Carbines and SMG's
Post by: savaze on <05-24-11/1358:06>
The only difference in accuracy for an m16 and m4 is after 300m. I've been shooting both for the past 12 years.

The rules sound interesting.
I qualified with both and used them extensively while in the Army... I'll just agree to disagree with you. I had my brother review the expanded rules last night (he was the designated marksmen in his infantry group toting the M14 with the underbarrel 203) and he said the damage still looked low, but I told him I'm trying to keep it close to the same beast with a lot of new limbs. It's for those that want to play 4e with 3e depth.
Title: Re: Carbines and SMG's
Post by: Cass100199 on <05-24-11/1408:05>
Quote
qualified with both and used them extensively while in the Army...

Maybe I'm just a better shot.  ;)

Honestly, I've never had accuracy issues, especially once we started using CCO's.

I might have missed it, but are you going to incorporate modular weapons with the different drop in barrels (length/ calibers)? That would open up the variety.
Title: Re: Carbines and SMG's
Post by: CanRay on <05-24-11/2013:14>
What I'd like to know are where are the rules for burning your eyebrows off for using a SMG-Sized Assault Rifle.   :P
Title: Re: Carbines and SMG's
Post by: Charybdis on <05-24-11/2055:12>
What I'd like to know are where are the rules for burning your eyebrows off for using a SMG-Sized Assault Rifle.   :P
- Critical glitch occurs on 2's instead of 1's. That'l do it.

- No reaction test (due to surprise)
- Take Bullet base damage, 1/2 Impact armour for elemental fire effect.
- If any physical damage is taken, eyebrows are lost and you suffer a -2 modifier to all social tests (except for Clown/Mime make-up, which now has a +2 bonus modifier)
- Eyebrows can be healed according to GM requirements (Magic, Full recovery, Bacta tanks...whatever floats your boat )

Sound fair?
Title: Re: Carbines and SMG's
Post by: Cass100199 on <05-24-11/2135:49>
What I'd like to know are where are the rules for burning your eyebrows off for using a SMG-Sized Assault Rifle.   :P

Even a carbine with a 14 inch barrel is still pretty far from your face.
Title: Re: Carbines and SMG's
Post by: CanRay on <05-24-11/2238:08>
Actually, having had my eyebrows burned off due to a flash fire (Not muzzle flare, but propane), it's not that bad.

The almost instant sunburn and waiting for sight to return, not so much fun.
Title: Re: Carbines and SMG's
Post by: Charybdis on <05-25-11/0157:28>
Actually, having had my eyebrows burned off due to a flash fire (Not muzzle flare, but propane), it's not that bad.

The almost instant sunburn and waiting for sight to return, not so much fun.
Indeed, I can relate:
- Once from being too close to a sparking gas heater
- Once from being a bit too reckless with a butane-powered paint-can cannon.... fuse was always a bit tricky on that one.

Ahhhh, the fun of too much time unsupervised and a garage full of construction equipment... I loved Wisconsin....
Title: Re: Carbines and SMG's
Post by: CanRay on <05-25-11/0214:26>
Don't even get me started on electricity and me.  :P

Anyhow, back to topic:  I guess this was an attempt at the writers (Someone prove me right/wrong/insane?) to try and just make the rules a bit easier to deal with.  Just like they made "Designated Marksman Rifles" just high-end hunting rifles, eh?  (At least, that's my read.  Then again, I wasn't in a very good mindset when I read War!, due to being in an ER Waiting Room.).
Title: Re: Carbines and SMG's
Post by: Charybdis on <05-25-11/0302:20>
Then again, I wasn't in a very good mindset when I read War!, due to being in an ER Waiting Room.).
Sounds like the PERFECT place to be reading War!

So when blood is pooling under your chair from various wounds and people are looking at you with some concern  :o, you can hold up youir SR4 sourcebook, appropriately titled and nod sagely..

Yep, war's a bitch.  ???

Ba*doom*CHING  ::) 8)
Title: Re: Carbines and SMG's
Post by: Mäx on <05-25-11/0451:00>
Just like they made "Designated Marksman Rifles" just high-end hunting rifles, eh?  (At least, that's my read.  Then again, I wasn't in a very good mindset when I read War!, due to being in an ER Waiting Room.).
War doesn't have any kind of marksman rifles or hunting rifles in it.
And i dont think it's about ease of system, more about balance, as for example having one SMG that has a DV 2 points higher then normal, would be kinda OP and make it the only SMG worth picking up.
Title: Re: Carbines and SMG's
Post by: Cass100199 on <05-25-11/0944:40>
Quote
[having one SMG that has a DV 2 points higher then normal, would be kinda OP and make it the only SMG worth picking up.

A carbine isn't an SMG. Never has been. A carbine is a smaller AR.
Title: Re: Carbines and SMG's
Post by: JoeNapalm on <05-25-11/1030:11>
Just like they made "Designated Marksman Rifles" just high-end hunting rifles, eh?  (At least, that's my read.  Then again, I wasn't in a very good mindset when I read War!, due to being in an ER Waiting Room.).
War doesn't have any kind of marksman rifles or hunting rifles in it.
And i dont think it's about ease of system, more about balance, as for example having one SMG that has a DV 2 points higher then normal, would be kinda OP and make it the only SMG worth picking up.

I think it's partly due to the granularity of the system.

SR4, at the core, is based on a scale that only goes from 1 to 6.

That means that a shift of 1 point is a 17% swing. That's pretty heft...a D20-based game deals in increments of 5%, a D100 system, 1%, etc.

[Okay, actually, with dice pools, it's way more complicated than that..rather than 1 through 6 it's like 28% extrapolated over the number of dice, or whatever...it's too effin' early for me to do Prob & Stat equations in my head, so I'm calling it 17%]

While I believe (as I stated) that the designers didn't know much (or care much) about firearms, the bigger reason is likely that the smallest modification that can be modeled by the system is that big honkin' 17% increment.

That's why you have weapon classes vs caliber, and why there's no difference between a katana and a broadsword, and why a 3 in a stat is average but a 4 is an Olympian.

It makes for a quicker, maybe easier system - but quick is a bit dirty when it comes to modeling a system.

I think it fits the atmosphere of the game - SR has always been about the spectacle and the story. A system like CP2020 is built around realistic simulation, and thus you can actually (with the proper sourcebooks) pick a specific real-world round and build an entire weapon around that specific ammunition caliber. But THAT game system is for modeling the exact hit-location of each round, the exact penetration, tracking shock and blood loss, etc, etc, etc...it's a about the nitty gritty, not the broad cinematic strokes.

It's simply the atmosphere of the game system itself. I think the one in place for SR4 makes sense and fits the setting nicely - but if you get wrapped around the axle on the difference between a JHP and a FMJ round, 9mm vs .40S&W, 7.62x39mm vs 7.62x51mm...it's simply too granular to be expressed in the system.

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
Title: Re: Carbines and SMG's
Post by: savaze on <05-25-11/1445:03>
@JoeNapalm
Part of the problem is that 4e was a total system overhaul. It fixed some glaring problems in areas that needed major rewrites, but created new ones when it didn't need to, like making it into a d3 system (1 in 3 on a d6). The 3 prior editions were very lethal compared to this edition and IMO combat is very bogged down and slow now due to lethality being curbed (they were a target number system - the highest I ever saw someone go was 56 on a single d6 = 1/6718464 chance).

Now if someone negligently shoots themselves with a shotgun (with shot) they only have to soak 3 points of damage (average) with a 1/3 chance of soaking a single box (previously you were looking at taking 10 with between 1/9-1/12 chance of soaking a single box).
Title: Re: Carbines and SMG's
Post by: Mäx on <05-25-11/1603:39>
Quote
[having one SMG that has a DV 2 points higher then normal, would be kinda OP and make it the only SMG worth picking up.

A carbine isn't an SMG. Never has been. A carbine is a smaller AR.
If it's same sized then a SMG, then for the purpose of my comment its an SMG.
Because both a SMG and an AR use the same skill there's no reason to pick an SMG if you can get a gun thats no bigger but does same damage as AR or even a BR.
Now if someone negligently shoots themselves with a shotgun (with shot) they only have to soak 3 points of damage
:o
Umm shotgun  with shot does 9P damage not 3.
Title: Re: Carbines and SMG's
Post by: farothel on <05-25-11/1604:06>
It's not only caliber that's important to determine damage.  For instance the FN P-90 uses a 5.7x25mm cartridge, about half the size of the standard 9x19mm parabellum pistol shot, but it still manages to penetrate kevlar vests at ranges of 200m (that was a design requirement).  So a smaller, lighter bullet can still be better then a larger one (and with a smaller bullet, you can carry more for the same weight).
Title: Re: Carbines and SMG's
Post by: JoeNapalm on <05-25-11/1614:16>
@savaze

That's kinda bad news, to me, if that's the case.

I GM'd a SR1 campaign back in the day, and thought that it was very un-lethal in many situations. I eventually transitioned to CP2020, partly because I was after something a bit more cyberpunkishly deadly...someone pointing a pistol at your head was more than just show.

We're still in the tooling up stages of a new SR4 campaign (one of my old group called up out of the blue and offered to GM - something I rarely (never) have time for, these days). We're rather time-limited, so sessions are going to get painful if combat is even less lethal than before.

Haven't had a chance to do my test brawls...that will let me know how the weapons feel. I did notice that there ARE rules for upping the deadification - our GM is former military and at one point was a nationally ranked 1000-yard marksman, so I'm guessing if firefights turn into a bunch of nerf brawls, the optional rules will be put into effect in short order.

Come to think of it, I better write up a couple reserve characters - my current main has a bit of an attitude problem, and might not last long.  ;)

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
Title: Re: Carbines and SMG's
Post by: JoeNapalm on <05-25-11/1617:55>
Quote
[having one SMG that has a DV 2 points higher then normal, would be kinda OP and make it the only SMG worth picking up.

A carbine isn't an SMG. Never has been. A carbine is a smaller AR.
If it's same sized then a SMG, then for the purpose of my comment its an SMG.
Because both a SMG and an AR use the same skill there's no reason to pick an SMG if you can get a gun thats no bigger but does same damage as AR or even a BR.

It's just a difference in perspective and nomenclature.

 When you say SMG you mean the SR4 weapon class.

When he says SMG, he means a long gun that fires pistol ammo (the non-SR definition of the term).

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
Title: Re: Carbines and SMG's
Post by: Mäx on <05-25-11/1632:39>
It's just a difference in perspective and nomenclature.

 When you say SMG you mean the SR4 weapon class.

When he says SMG, he means a long gun that fires pistol ammo (the non-SR definition of the term).
Actually i was using it as an indication of Size, because thats the part that matters for game balance.
So i included in it actual SMG:s, PDF:s, carbines and SBR:s
Title: Re: Carbines and SMG's
Post by: Cass100199 on <05-25-11/1732:04>
Quote
if it's same sized then a SMG, then for the purpose of my comment its an SMG.

You're wrong again, but at least consistent. I can make a shotgun the size of an SMG; smaller actually. Doesn't make it an SMG. I can draw whiskers on my a** and say "meow" every time I fart; doesn't make me a cat. A carbine is a shortened assault rifle that fires assault rifle ammunition. SMG's fire pistol ammunition at a high rate of speed. And that is the source of the question: why were carbines lumped in with SMG's, when they should have been put in with AR's and, maybe, some range modifications.
Title: Re: Carbines and SMG's
Post by: Critias on <05-25-11/1858:32>
Quote
if it's same sized then a SMG, then for the purpose of my comment its an SMG.
A carbine is a shortened assault rifle that fires assault rifle ammunition. SMG's fire pistol ammunition at a high rate of speed.
That's not always the case, however.  Some carbines fire pistol ammo.  Traditionally, it can be either -- when in doubt, if it's shorter or lighter than a "real" rifle, history has called it a carbine.  This applies to Winchester and Marlin lever-actions (with the classic "cowboy" image of having a belt full of .44-40s that he could load into his trusty wheelgun or carbine), into WWII with the De Lisle, and into modern day with stuff like the Marlin, Ruger, and Kel-Tec carbines that even take pistol magazines, not just pistol ammo.

Sometimes a carbine is a short-barreled AR, yes, but sometimes it's a long barreled, stock-mounted, "pistol."  Hell, technically an SMG firing on semi-auto fits the definition of a carbine...and even not-semi-auto ones (look up the official designation of the Sten gun some time).  In real life, designations get all tangled up, definitions are loose at best, and terms are sometimes misrepresented.

What actually matters in this discussion, though, isn't really real life.  It's the game, and the way the game is an abstraction of real life.  Just like ammo is silly, just like weapon ranges are silly, just like armor is silly, firearm designations can be silly.  Sometimes that means something we think should be lumped into Assault Rifles gets lumped into Submachineguns instead.  If you want to house rule it, there's certainly nothing stopping you, but the long and short of it is that your average game designer just doesn't have the time or inclination to really care about real-world guns, much less the time or inclination to try and make their future-fantasy RPG as realistic a combat simulation as possible.
Title: Re: Carbines and SMG's
Post by: Mäx on <05-25-11/1935:10>
Quote
if it's same sized then a SMG, then for the purpose of my comment its an SMG.

You're wrong again, but at least consistent. I can make a shotgun the size of an SMG; smaller actually. Doesn't make it an SMG.
No put in SR4 it does change it's base damage to that of an Heavy Pistol.
And no i'm not wrong, if you really think so, then my whole point went miles above your head.
Title: Re: Carbines and SMG's
Post by: Cass100199 on <05-25-11/1947:53>
Quote
And no i'm not wrong, if you really think so, then my whole point went miles above your head.

No, you're wrong. I asked when I started the thread, why are carbines grouped in with SMG's when they are clearly two different things. I didn't ask for your personal opinion on the definition of an SMG's and some stupid blather about how they are the same. So it's not that your point was lofty or anything; it's that you clearly have no clue what you're talking about. So at this point, I will say as before, if you want to continue to say things that have no factual truth, you are welcome to PM me.
Title: Re: Carbines and SMG's
Post by: Mäx on <05-25-11/1954:01>
Quote
And no i'm not wrong, if you really think so, then my whole point went miles above your head.
No, you're wrong. I asked when I started the thread, why are carbines grouped in with SMG's when they are clearly two different things.
And i said in my first post, for game balance.
Title: Re: Carbines and SMG's
Post by: Critias on <05-25-11/2036:12>
No, you're wrong...I didn't ask for your personal opinion on the definition of an SMG's and some stupid blather about how they are the same. So it's not that your point was lofty or anything; it's that you clearly have no clue what you're talking about.
Take it easy, chief.  Go burn through a box of ammo at the range or something to cool down, then come back and realize you're coming off as pretty hostile in these last couple posts.  It's just an internet forum where folks are having a disagreement about the firearm categorizations of a role-playing game;  nothing worth getting worked up and angry about.
Title: Re: Carbines and SMG's
Post by: savaze on <05-25-11/2103:02>
Umm shotgun  with shot does 9P damage not 3.
Shotgun with shot does do 9P and you'll also notice I said average damage...

There is a difference in size between SMG's and carbines. SMGs usually range in the 15-25" over-all length (OAL) range, with a 7-10" barrel, weighing in at 4-6 lbs; whereas carbines are usually in the 25-35" OAL range, with 10-15" barrels, weighing in at 6-7 (arguably higher, but that's a different debate). Carbines fit the gap between assault rifles and SMGs. You can move into the whole PDW ammo argument, but that came along after the fact (so yes you can have SMGs that have similar ranges as carbines with PDW ammo and carbines that fire pistol rounds). It's all down to what the weapons are used for and why.
Title: Re: Carbines and SMG's
Post by: CanRay on <05-25-11/2144:03>
Go burn through a box of ammo at the range or something to cool down...
Oh how I wish!
Title: Re: Carbines and SMG's
Post by: KarmaInferno on <05-26-11/0147:57>
I didn't ask for your personal opinion on the definition of an SMG's and some stupid blather about how they are the same.

He's not giving his personal opinion. He's telling you how the game system treats it.

He's not talking about "real life" at all. Note how he discusses "game balance" over and over.

And this is a Shadowrun forum. You're going to get personal opinions by the bucketload whether you want it or not, regardless of the subject.



-k
Title: Re: Carbines and SMG's
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <05-26-11/0203:33>
Umm shotgun  with shot does 9P damage not 3.
Shotgun with shot does do 9P and you'll also notice I said average damage...

So, how is "average" damage only 3?  You don't roll for damage in Shadowrun, you roll for accuracy and then add the extras to the damage the weapon already does.  So the shotgun does a whopping 9 damage to the accident-prone shooter, in this case, and prays he doesn't blow his foot off.
Title: Re: Carbines and SMG's
Post by: CanRay on <05-26-11/0204:57>
And this is a Shadowrun forum. You're going to get personal opinions by the bucketload whether you want it or not, regardless of the subject.
-k
Especially about firearms, considering how Gun Nuts are.

Not singling you out, BTW, The Gun Nut.  I'm in that category as well.  :P
Title: Re: Carbines and SMG's
Post by: savaze on <05-26-11/0230:55>
So, how is "average" damage only 3?  You don't roll for damage in Shadowrun, you roll for accuracy and then add the extras to the damage the weapon already does.  So the shotgun does a whopping 9 damage to the accident-prone shooter, in this case, and prays he doesn't blow his foot off.
As I'm beyond looking the idiot, I'm going to go watch to tv to complete the picture and hope my sleep frenzied mind passes out...
Title: Re: Carbines and SMG's
Post by: Cass100199 on <05-26-11/0937:41>
Quote
You're going to get personal opinions

Oh I get that. But if you're going to say something that has no basis in things like facts or logic, I don't feel bad for pointing it out. His mention of balance was a good one, albeit inacurrate on the game writer's part. Trying to insist that an SMG and carbine are the same thing is stupid.
Title: Re: Carbines and SMG's
Post by: FastJack on <05-26-11/1011:17>
Quote
You're going to get personal opinions

Oh I get that. But if you're going to say something that has no basis in things like facts or logic, I don't feel bad for pointing it out. His mention of balance was a good one, albeit inacurrate on the game writer's part. Trying to insist that an SMG and carbine are the same thing is stupid.
Cass, you might think it's stupid, but for many of us (yes, myself included), we couldn't tell the difference. As far as some of us are concerned, it's a gun, it's bigger than a pistol, smaller than a rifle and fires in bursts. Hence, why it's grouped in that category. This is a game first and foremost, it's not trying to be as realistic as possible. So some things get "dumbed down" for the mass public, which is going to drive the RL experts nuts (Remember 1st Edition "Megapulses" on cyberdecks? Yeah...) The key to remember is that things like this are done to make the game easier to run (in the case of Skills) and more marketable to the Many. If you want to create another group and put Carbines in there, you're free to do that as a player/GM (heck, in most games, you're probably okay with making it a specialization). But the thing you have to remember is Opinions are never "stupid".

(This is why I read Trigger Talk, but don't participate.)
Title: Re: Carbines and SMG's
Post by: Rockopolis on <05-26-11/1032:26>
Somehow I'm picturing a history blurb about Webster's having redefined 'Carbine' and 'SMG' in 2045. :P
Title: Re: Carbines and SMG's
Post by: CanRay on <05-26-11/1035:07>
Somehow I hear the gnashing of teeth and wailing of every gun nut in the world in 2045 after reading that.   :P
Title: Re: Carbines and SMG's
Post by: KarmaInferno on <05-26-11/1519:20>
Quote
You're going to get personal opinions

Oh I get that. But if you're going to say something that has no basis in things like facts or logic, I don't feel bad for pointing it out. His mention of balance was a good one, albeit inacurrate on the game writer's part. Trying to insist that an SMG and carbine are the same thing is stupid.

Real Life facts and logic.

Again, he's not talking Real Life.

As far as Shadowrun is concerned, they're smaller than assault rifles but bigger than machine pistols, and they autofire. Given that Shadowrun has few degrees of granularity, they decided to lump anything under that definition as "SMG". Remember in this game there's no real distinction at all between pistol ammo and rifle ammo, nor calibers for either.

No, it's not "Real Life", but for game purposes it's "Good Enough".


-k
Title: Re: Carbines and SMG's
Post by: Mäx on <05-26-11/1535:16>
Trying to insist that an SMG and carbine are the same thing is stupid.
Funny think is that no matter how many times you repeat this, it doesn't make it true.
Not once did i say SMG and carbine are a same think in real world, just that for the point i was making about balance in a game they are the same think.
IRL being able to get an SBR thats's same size as MP5 and shoots 7.62 NATO rounds is cool, but having somethink like that in a game makes SMG:s pointless and truth be told also pretty much AR:s and other BR:s too.
Title: Re: Carbines and SMG's
Post by: JoeNapalm on <05-26-11/1623:19>
You can get that in game, if you mod it.

 (But I grok what you are saying.)

-T-
Title: Re: Carbines and SMG's
Post by: CanRay on <05-26-11/1824:17>
Well, the AKS-74U (in 5.45mm Soviet) is almost SMG Sized.  The Heckler & Koch HK53 (in 5.56mm NATO) is the Western version as well, and H&K officially listed it as a "SMG" themselves.

Just to give to RL examples.
Title: Re: Carbines and SMG's
Post by: Cass100199 on <05-27-11/0209:32>
http://world.guns.ru/assault/de/hk-hk33-and-hk53-e.html (http://world.guns.ru/assault/de/hk-hk33-and-hk53-e.html)

Quote
HK53 is a ultra-compact version of HK33, which advertised by HK as "submachine gun" and, by common sense, falls in the same category as soviet AKS-74U or Colt "Commando". All these guns can be classified as "compact (or short) assault rifles" by the fact, that they are used the intermediate rifle round.

Look, bottom line is that SMG's and Carbine's are two different things. If a difference is going to be made in light and heavy pistols, then they should have applied the same level of detail to the rest. And while "balance" may have been a rationale, it's a rationale not based in any kind of fact.

For example: If one of our homegrown (in the States) militias buy up a bunch of SR16's, or AMC's, or plain ol' Colt M4's and decides attack a protective detail armed with HK MP5's. Is that a fair fight? One is firing 5.56 NATO rounds and the other is firing 9mm. Not the same thing.

Title: Re: Carbines and SMG's
Post by: CanRay on <05-27-11/0441:00>
"If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'", right?
Title: Re: Carbines and SMG's
Post by: Mäx on <05-27-11/0544:11>
Look, bottom line is that SMG's and Carbine's are two different things. If a difference is going to be made in light and heavy pistols, then they should have applied the same level of detail to the rest. And while "balance" may have been a rationale, it's a rationale not based in any kind of fact.
When is balance ever based on facts, it's not like all SMG:s actually are just as powerfull or all AR:s for that matter, but the system only really has room for one stat line per group and as carbines can't be grouped with AR:s they got grouped in with the group below AR:s the SMG:s.

Ofcource if you don't like that you could just remove all the carbines and then when you want to get one for a character, just get an AR and apply the shortened barrel mod to it.

Also it's kinda funny that your insistant about the difference between carbines and SMG:S, while simultaniously quoting a source stating that HK advertises carbine version of one of their AR:S as an SMG. 8)
Title: Re: Carbines and SMG's
Post by: FastJack on <05-27-11/0749:22>
Okay, the argument is going round and round again. I think everything needed to have been said has been, so time to lock the thread.