[hazmat the monstar]

I have had a hard time getting my head around the idea of people being able to move so fast. Not to mention it's a pain in the ass to go up against a sammy with 4 I.P.s when you got 1.

[Critias]

I'm sure it's not excessive at all to someone who's forked out the nuyen, Essence, or Power Points (depending on how they got there).

"Speed kills" isn't nearly as true in 4th edition as it used to be.  Everyone's got it easy, these days, against a dedicated speed sammie.

[Glyph]

4 IPs in combat can be gotten by an adept with a hard-maxed magic spending two-thirds of their power points (and that is with the revised lower cost from SR4A), a street samurai getting the restricted gear quality and spending at least 100,000 nuyen, or a mage reaching a threshold of 4 for his improved reflexes spell (and sustaining it will either incur a penalty, or require the restricted gear quality (and an outlay of 40,000 nuyen) for the requisite sustaining focus.

So, while it is a significant advantage, it is balanced in that it requires a lot of a character's finite resources to acquire.  Initiative, like many other things, can be hard-maxed at character creation; this is a design feature that many people dislike, since they prefer having room for advancement, but it is what it is.  There are plenty of options available for GMs who wish a lower-powered game.

Initiative passes are important, though.  A lot of the combat-oriented builds that I have seen on this board tend to neglect them, as well as Edge.  Generally, any combat character should have at least 2 IP, and optimally 3.  Street samurai should  be tough opponents.  They are people who have used augmentations to make themselves superhuman combat machines.

[Walks Through Walls]

IPs are important, but I'll agree with Critias they aren't the be all end all that they were in the earlier editions. Now anyone can get off the first shot if they use a karma point or with a good roll can just get to move first then watch the whirling dervish sammie act 4 times in the combat turn to start it all over again.

[hazmat the monstar]

Thanks you walks thru walls. For example. New characters running in On The Run, have to go up against a Lt. with 3 IPs. So That guys doin 3 actions while everyone else is doing 1. Maybe I'm just whining...

[Walks Through Walls]

True he gets three to one

However in shadowrun the most important one is and has always been the first one. Now anyone can get that first action first.

I have 1 IP you have 3
I go first and shot you.    You take damage  if I'm really good or lucky you are dead I don't care how many passes you get. If not you now have a wound modifier.

Wound modifiers are nasty. For an example of them in action go to the Play By Post I.C. Road to Redmond post and I think it is about page 7 where my mystic adept ends up in a fight with a troll. I spend karma go first and it turns the battle

[hazmat the monstar]

Very good point. where is the rule about spending karma to go first. Are you referring to edge?

[Walks Through Walls]

Yes it is edge. I'm old old school. It used to be you had no edge and had to spend your karma to survive those tense let my edge be my savior moments.

It used to be to get better or have a better chance to survive the yikes moments of a characters life

Now it is a stat you can increase like anything else

[Critias]

Thanks you walks thru walls. For example. New characters running in On The Run, have to go up against a Lt. with 3 IPs. So That guys doin 3 actions while everyone else is doing 1. Maybe I'm just whining...

So who is this "everyone else" that only gets 1 IP, and why are they staying as slow as a normal human being, if they know they're Shadowrunners -- folks likely to get into combat on a fairly regular basis -- and have illegal resources at their fingertips?

[hazmat the monstar]

You are right sir. None of my players bothered to get any extra I.P.s. Now they know. And knowing... ah you get it, they almost died.

[KarmaInferno]

Extra actions in combat is always one of the more powerful abilities in ANY roleplaying game.




-k

[Mäx]

You are right sir. None of my players bothered to get any extra I.P.s. Now they know. And knowing... ah you get it, they almost died.

Did they also build pretty bad combat characters or did the 3 IP enemy have a lot of friends too.
1 guy versus a team of runners shouldn't survive past the first IP, so how many he has is irrelevant.

[Kontact]

Cram
Duration: (12 – Body) hours, minimum 1 hour
Effect: +1 Reaction, +1 Initiative Pass
The most recent amphetamine to make the rounds, cram is an
energizer drug designed to give the user an energy boost. When this
effect wears off, users crash and suffer 6 Stun damage (unresisted) for
an equivalent duration.
Cram users, while on the drug, may appear hyper-alert, possibly
to the point of paranoia. They are quick to react, often doing so
without thinking first. Jitteriness, fidgeting, or emotional or irrational
outbursts may be common. Characters may decide to use cram if they
cannot afford cyberware or bioware, or if they are looking for a little
edge against potential opponents.

Cram in the morning - sleep off the stun.
10¥ per dose.

[Bradd]

Jazz is good too. Costs more, and doesn't last as long, but the side-effects are a lot milder: –2 dice for 10 minutes. Edge is good too, and not just for buying IPs. My runner (when I'm not GMing) relies on a biomonitor, auto-injector, and Edge to amp up.

[Walks Through Walls]

You are right sir. None of my players bothered to get any extra I.P.s. Now they know. And knowing... ah you get it, they almost died.

This is one of the reasons I always start a new game with an adventure and then let the players keep the karma and tweek their characters if they like for free. We all forget something when we make a character either that we wanted to have or really need. (Now where did I put that fake SIN?)