[Reaver]

I just have to throw into this conversation that 90% of the characters I've seen at a table grew up SINless in the Barrens, but people here are put off by the idea of actually playing a young child SINless in the Barrens. I find this incredibly ironic. How many characters have you played that were never SINless in the Barrens, I wonder?

Some of us are under no such illusions. And having traveled to over 30 developing or 3rd world countries, I don't think you want to know the sad, soul breaking things I have seen....



But there are some very large problems with this concept - for most races- before you get to moral implications.

For the most part, trying to play a child in such an adult themed game, realistically, is going to have some serious issues. Take your average 12 year old, and compare that to your average 30 year old.... By all measures of physical capability, the average 30 year old is going to be almost twice as strong, much more endurance, and have much better fine motor controls.
The mental stats in SR don't reflect educational level, but they do reflect someone who is past their formative and investigative years, not to mention the dept and breadth of learning experience that simple living provides.

So if the average adult person's stats are 3, what is the average stats of a preteen? 1? 2? Now is that playable?
Then you're on to knowledge skills. A preteen is just learning complex tasks and to cope with complex instructions, while an adult, just by the fact of living, has had time to learn these skills, and techniques.
The average human has 28 skill points, with an average skill rating of 3 to 4.  So what is appropriate for a preteen? 14 skill points with no skill above 3???

Not looking good for survivability.... But that should be expected. The person is, after all a preteen.



Now, things get REALLY murky when you throw in metahumans into that soup. It's Canon that an Ork reaches physical maturity at around 13 years of age, but not the mental maturity.  Which leads to all sorts of problems socially. After all, Little Johnny punching Ben because Ben called him a "booger Brain" when Little Johnny is six foot eight, 200 kilos and has the strength of a body builder is a bit of a problem... ( And in Lore, this is covered by the mentions of racial hatred, social groups, hate groups, and other pieces of lore and fluff).

Even with an Orks maturation rate, it is still assumed that the Ork character has had the time to mature mentally and emotionally, and when you consider that taking the Ork metatype takes a minimum of C resources... how do you adjust for the lack of mental and emotional maturity? -20% skill points? -40% skill points.


Or, just hand wave it away?

And then there is the other players/character to consider. While every one loves their snowflakes, and wants special consider for their snowflakes, because their snowflake is just that special, a tabletop game is still a social event requiring a social contract among the other players and GM... And some concepts are just taboo for some people.


"When you take a Snowflake and add it to other Snowflakes, you just end up with snow."

[Marcus]

I just have to echo what Reaver is saying. Nothing good comes from running pre-teens. It's bad in all ways. The game isn't intended for it, and there are reasons for that. I would not allow it my table, and I recommend against it in all circumstances.

[Xenon]

...what is the average stats of a preteen? 1? 2? Now is that playable?

Are you suggesting that taking Attribute Priority E during chargen is not an option in Shadowrun...?

[Sphinx]

I'm gonna go against consensus and say there's nothing wrong with playing a young character in Shadowrun. Plenty of interesting examples in literature, from Oliver Twist to Gavroche in Les Miserables to Y.T. in Snow Crash. In Shadowrun 3E, all otaku characters were supposed to be children, and I've seen several played very effectively by talented role-players.

There are no qualities describing it, as others have mentioned. Just accept that your kid character will be exceptional, equivalent to full-grown adult characters thanks to the magic of character generation. Start with average or lower Strength and Body for plausibility.

[Marcus]

...what is the average stats of a preteen? 1? 2? Now is that playable?

Are you suggesting that taking Attribute Priority E during chargen is not an option in Shadowrun...?

I'd suggest it's a deadman walking option. Which I'd say is the about the same thing as unplayable.

[Marcus]

Of those YT is the only within the genre, and further YT is exactly the sort of example I would like to avoid.

[Xenon]

...what is the average stats of a preteen? 1? 2? Now is that playable?

Are you suggesting that taking Attribute Priority E during chargen is not an option in Shadowrun...?

I'd suggest it's a deadman walking option. Which I'd say is the about the same thing as unplayable.

But it should be as legit picking Attributes E (average 1.5) as for example picking Metatype E, Magic E or Resources E.

If it isn't then I'd say something is wrong with the attribute priority column.

...or perhaps there is a problem with GMs that require/expect players to have at least rating 2 in every single attributes out of chargen.

[Marcus]

...what is the average stats of a preteen? 1? 2? Now is that playable?

Are you suggesting that taking Attribute Priority E during chargen is not an option in Shadowrun...?

I'd suggest it's a deadman walking option. Which I'd say is the about the same thing as unplayable.

But it should be as legit picking Attributes E (average 1.5) as for example picking Metatype E, Magic E or Resources E.

If it isn't then I'd say something is wrong with the attribute priority column.

...or perhaps there is a problem with GMs that require/expect players to have at least rating 2 in every single attributes out of chargen.

Maybe in some perfect world Xenon.  But in practice E attributes would be almost certainly be a death sentence even in something as easy as SRM.

[Reaver]

...what is the average stats of a preteen? 1? 2? Now is that playable?

Are you suggesting that taking Attribute Priority E during chargen is not an option in Shadowrun...?

No Attribute E is a possible choice. It may not be the most effective choice. Heck it even could be a deliberate attempt to hamper a character.

BUT, there is a far cry difference between taking taking Priority E for Attributes, and asking for ways to not take Attribute E attributes and looking for a way to play a attribute specific character with playing for the low stats (like in this case a preteen).

Also, Attribute E is usually only taken by Metahuman races that usually include a heavy stat buff.
Elf: +3
Dwarf: +4
Ork: +3
Troll:+5

Not to mention free racial abilities. (Armor, vision, reach).

Now, I suppose a Human could take attributes E if he choose to. But it would be a very sub-optimal choice, (But is still a choice).

However, if your objective is to create a viable character that is going to contribute to a party as much as the next guy in the team, Why would you?
If your objective is to create a unique, and beautiful snowflake (that also happens to be quad amputee, 1 in all skills, 1 in all attributes, with no cyber) Why would a team take you?

As I said in closing, tabletops are social games and that comes with a social contract between all the players at the table. It may be unwritten, and unspoken, but its there. It could be as simple as "lets all have fun!".... And some concepts or builds can go outside that social contract for some tables. (each table's social contract will be different)

Shadowrun is an adult  game, with themes of sexual exploitation, drug abuse, murder, victimization, and organ harvesting. And that's before you get to the really nasty shit that happens in the darker side of the shadows (Puppeteering, child exploitation, slavery, organ and fetal tissue farms).

It's small wonder given today's social climate that some tables would balk at a child runner. (Have you seen that crazy shit happening at colleges and universities across the western world?  Some asshole shows up to speak, a bunch of students lose their marbles and break  millions of dollars of public property. OVER SOMEONE SPEAKING!!! I have listened to a couple of these de-platformed speakers... the most controversial thing so far said was "You are an adult, act like one!") 

[Streetsam_Crunch]

Depending on the theme/mood of my campaign, I'd allow it. Either because it was more lighthearted 'pink mohawk' fare, or for the very reason it was gritty and nasty and expressing how dark it is to have a kid involved in it somehow. I trust my regular group to be pretty mature about the whole thing.

However, it would only be for roleplaying purposes, I don't think I'd apply a negative quality to it. If the kid was raised by runners and is a smarmy little tunnel rat, then they'd probably be just as skilled as any adult. Now I would completely understand if they took negative qualities that reflected that, like Uneducated, or something.

I MIGHT would allow taking the Prejudiced negative quality, but I would reverse it, and it would apply to them instead of others. If they took it though, I'd play it up to those that don't know them, and they'd have to always prove they're not 'just a kid' until they bought it off (I would also encourage the rest of the group to roleplay that up for fun as well). Just the 7 point one, though, and they could buy it off as they grew up or gained reputation.

Otherwise, people would give them a sidelong glance, but generally let it slide unless there was a specific reason not to. "Hey kid, you can't go in there!" That or if they disguised themselves it'd be to look like a dwarf or something and/or had a fake SIN that displayed a different age (how many people would look at that and if it looked like their SIN belonged there wouldn't give it more than a glance?)

For an example, read "Unwired" 4th edition, page 32 (I love that story... f*****g hardcopy! ) So, there's at least that precedent for underage runners.

Crunch~

[Sphinx]

Yeah, Attributes E should have more points than it does. Consider that the middle segment of the bell curve is rating 3 by definition (adjusting for metatype), which means most people have rating 3 attributes. Rating 4 is unusually strong, rating 5 is stronger than almost everyone, and rating 6 is the strongest you can be without augmentation. On the other hand, rating 2 is unusually weak, and rating 1 borders on disability. Anyone who takes Attributes E or D has a lower average rating than a typical person. Personally, I'd add at least two points to every priority level.

Shadowrun is an adult  game, with themes of sexual exploitation, drug abuse, murder, victimization, and organ harvesting. And that's before you get to the really nasty shit that happens in the darker side of the shadows (Puppeteering, child exploitation, slavery, organ and fetal tissue farms).

Not every campaign delves into mature issues. Most games I've run or played were mostly PG-rated. I've seen games at conventions with 13-year-olds sitting at the table as players, not characters.

I just have to echo what Reaver is saying. Nothing good comes from running pre-teens. It's bad in all ways. The game isn't intended for it, and there are reasons for that. I would not allow it my table, and I recommend against it in all circumstances.

Am I the only one who remembers otaku?

[Marcus]

Am I the only one who remembers otaku?

I haven't forgotten Otaku, and yes i can recall probably half a dozen maybe sight less otaku NPCs. There were issues with them being children. Admittedly not all of them. They were never popular with the peeps i played with in 3rd, and honestly My memory of that time and those rules is not strong and I would have to  go digging for much of those rules.

But it's not mistake that Otaku were replaced with TM in 4th, and were no longer subject to the rules otaku were.

[fseperent]

Might I offer a suggestion for building a young character?

Life Modules with Nationalities, Formative years, and possibly Teen years modules only.
Can only add 2 to any skills or attributes after life modules.
Maximum Availability at 6 or 8.

[Gorstavich]

Checked out the anime Jormungand over the weekend, and liked what I saw.  Could totally see a mini/short SRM season in which the players are hired to protect an Arms Dealer as they travel from country to country, peddling their wares.

[Xenon]

Checked out the anime Jormungand over the weekend, and liked what I saw.

You recommend it? :-)

(another good anime, at least from a Shadowrun-archetypes-point-of-view, is the "Black Lagoon" series)


...sorry for hi-jacking your thread(!)