Shadowrun
Catalyst Game Labs => Catalyst's Shadowrun Products => Topic started by: Big John on <06-08-12/1835:13>
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So...I wanted to ask some questions about the runners in Street Legends, but before I did I tried my best at "due diligence" and perused the forum for potential answers to my questions. Unfortunately it appears that Fastjack has locked the Street Legends forum due to...ahem...fiery disagreements.
In respect to that, shall I ask my questions in a different thread, and suffer potential dumpshock when Fastjack sends his armies of IC after me, or do I wisely hold it all in, and ponder the myriad ways I believe things as a whole are somewhat messed up?
Choices, choices, choices...
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Depends on the questions and how they're asked. Be polite, be respectful, and always have a plan to kill everyone in the room.
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No, wait, wrong set of rules...
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OK, I can do this...be polite...be respectful...
<deep breath>
<glances around the room nervously>
So, I noticed that a few of the characters had awful high attributes. I'm fairly curious what the "nebulous amount" of karma was for creating them.
I also noticed that at least two elves have Edge 7, one human had Edge 10, and two humans had Edge 8, all without qualities that provided for it. What kind of logic was used. I truly hope it wasn't the "They are cool characters for the game and can therefore ignore the rules" mindset, because then I'm gonna have to relate you all to TSR / WotC, and we cannot be having that...
<prepares the almighty "Decimate All In the Room" spell>
P.S. Thorn is absolutely, positively the most awesome character in there. He made me laugh so hard...awesome stuff.
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Oh, also - Software and commlink ratings up to 9 and 10. Am I missing a sourcebook somewhere?
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Oh, also - Software and commlink ratings up to 9 and 10. Am I missing a sourcebook somewhere?
War!
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Never ascribe to "2 kool 4 skool" syndrome what can be ascribed to lazy editing.
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Oh, also - Software and commlink ratings up to 9 and 10. Am I missing a sourcebook somewhere?
Generally just assume that megacorp CEOs, national militaries, dragons, and immortal elves can afford the bleeding edge stuff that is going to be SOTA in a few years. Afterall, who do you think MAKES all those SOTA programs?
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Oh, also - Software and commlink ratings up to 9 and 10. Am I missing a sourcebook somewhere?
War! is the sourcebook that details hardware and software over rating 6.
In terms of creating Street Legends, no karma was given ... writers weren't told "You have a thousand karma, go", for instance, and instead made them at a level that felt right. LOTS of different writers were involved, each having a different idea of how they wante dto assemble things (Shocking, I know), so, you get some differences in power level.
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I also noticed that at least two elves have Edge 7, one human had Edge 10, and two humans had Edge 8, all without qualities that provided for it.
As I recall, this was answered before the threads were closed to assume they have Lucky. As for Winterhawk's Edge 10, I know that was explained as an error in layout along with the correct stats being posted.
The karma budget was "Best judgement." Thorn's been an active spy/terrorist/runner for most of the twenty-first century. Lugh Surehand has been around a long, long time. Talon has been in at least a half-dozen epic "career-making runs." Martin de Vries was already a stupendous badass when he first appeared in Prime Runners. A very active runner who's been around for a decade or two can earn an incredible amount of karma, and that applies to virtually everyone in that book.
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I'm good with "the story rules" thinking, I prefer such. When I read through the book, however, everyone's attributes were high, especially Edge. Most had 5 or 6, with a couple 4s and the previous high ones. I was beginning to wonder if I fully botched a portion of my character creation again! My poor sod of a troll only has 3 Edge...
I also understand that after years of experience a runner will have high skills and attributes. That didn't bother me. 10 Edge however....I want that Positive Quality!
Have I mentioned Thorn is awesome? I'm thinking Big John is becoming a shaman...yes. He will have Mentor Spirit (Thorn). Indeed....
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A very active runner who's been around for a decade or two can earn an incredible amount of karma, and that applies to virtually everyone in that book.
Pity the fool that picks a fight with ARGENT!
Or, hell, even Peg!
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I'm good with "the story rules" thinking, I prefer such. When I read through the book, however, everyone's attributes were high, especially Edge. Most had 5 or 6, with a couple 4s and the previous high ones. I was beginning to wonder if I fully botched a portion of my character creation again! My poor sod of a troll only has 3 Edge...
SR4 makes increasing Attributes in character advancement really important and wise (and hence more expensive) because Agility, for example, is the Linked Attribute for nearly every combat skill. And you can default to Attributes. Edge is just ... Edge.
I also understand that after years of experience a runner will have high skills and attributes. That didn't bother me. 10 Edge however....I want that Positive Quality!
Yeah. That would be something.
Have I mentioned Thorn is awesome? I'm thinking Big John is becoming a shaman...yes. He will have Mentor Spirit (Thorn). Indeed....
Critias will be pleased to read that. Have you seen his errataed stats (linked in Critias' signature)?
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I'm good with "the story rules" thinking, I prefer such. When I read through the book, however, everyone's attributes were high, especially Edge. Most had 5 or 6, with a couple 4s and the previous high ones. I was beginning to wonder if I fully botched a portion of my character creation again! My poor sod of a troll only has 3 Edge...
A big part of that -- at least in my own mental calculating and statting up of my guy -- was that in a way it was like having a pretty high Edge was almost a requisite in order to someday become a Street Legend, just 'cause you really need it to stay in the business for very long.
Edge isn't just dumb luck, it's at times also been described as will to succeed, the ability to persevere when body and mind (should) have failed you, and that sort of thing. And for an awful lot of the Street Legend characters, they're plenty cinematic and "impossible hero," stars of their own novels (or more than one), and that sort of thing. Edge is the go-to attribute for explaining that sort of plot-immunity type stuff, so it was a pretty popular stat for folks statting up these guys. Not only is it a handy way to boost the stats of these characters all across the board (to keep them larger-than-life and nasty in a fight), but they're also handy ways to kind of explain how they lasted a long time.
Have I mentioned Thorn is awesome? I'm thinking Big John is becoming a shaman...yes. He will have Mentor Spirit (Thorn). Indeed....
Well, it's much appreciated. I'm glad to hear it! His first actual appearance was as the 'voice' of about a chapter and a half of Spy Games, if you haven't read that one yet, including the chapter on espionage tradecraft, which was fun to write. He hasn't got any outright fiction in there, but there's lots of word count from him, even if not about him.
And, let's see, Thorn as a Mentor Spirit? I'd say +2 to either Combat or Manipulation spells (choose), bonus on summoning spirits of Man...and...hmm. Given his temperament, maybe the downside that Adversary followers get? That's how I'd wing it, at least. 8)
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I'll admit that Thorn is someone I don't want to write for. I can't get the dang Lucky Charms voice out of my head and it taints everything I try and manage with him. I had to physically restrain myself from writing "Boyo" instead of "Boy" in a passage from him, and that hurt.
If we add a couple of southerners (Kane doesn't count, because, well, he's *Kane*) then I'll be sure to thwack people for miss-using Y'all. :)
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I'll admit that Thorn is someone I don't want to write for. I can't get the dang Lucky Charms voice out of my head and it taints everything I try and manage with him. I had to physically restrain myself from writing "Boyo" instead of "Boy" in a passage from him, and that hurt.
Are ye sayin' th' Irish talk funny, Lad?
Sure enough, ye keep on doin' just that, and ye'll get my Shillelagh upside the head! ;D
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I'll admit that Thorn is someone I don't want to write for. I can't get the dang Lucky Charms voice out of my head and it taints everything I try and manage with him. I had to physically restrain myself from writing "Boyo" instead of "Boy" in a passage from him, and that hurt.
No need to restrain yourself as far as I'm concerned. I've done it myself, from time to time (when the editors don't think it's a typo and "fix" it). I know folks today that narrate into a microphone and have their computer type for them; I could certainly see Thorn doing the same, for Jackpoint, and his accent coming through every now and then.
If we add a couple of southerners (Kane doesn't count, because, well, he's *Kane*) then I'll be sure to thwack people for miss-using Y'all. :)
Hell, I had Hard Exit shout "Hook 'em Horns" in one of my posts, and I'm sure I've had her use a y'all or two. The gal's a Texan, that's pretty danged southern.
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No need to restrain yourself as far as I'm concerned. I've done it myself, from time to time (when the editors don't think it's a typo and "fix" it). I know folks today that narrate into a microphone and have their computer type for them; I could certainly see Thorn doing the same, for Jackpoint, and his accent coming through every now and then.
Considering that Iconliteracy far exceeds actual literacy in Shadowrun, the majority of people use "Voice-To-Text" systems to "write" things. And have for over 20-years.
Ironically, Shadowrunners probably have the highest percentage of literacy compared to any other "Blue Collar" job.
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Oh, also - Software and commlink ratings up to 9 and 10. Am I missing a sourcebook somewhere?
Generally just assume that megacorp CEOs, national militaries, dragons, and immortal elves can afford the bleeding edge stuff that is going to be SOTA in a few years. Afterall, who do you think MAKES all those SOTA programs?
Clockwork?
And...related to original question...from answers above it seems that yes, you can ignore rules to create characters who are really awesome.. Because not only they need to have 4,5,6 as a success, but also they need uncontrolled growth in Edge dicepool.
But...I can see that this is the kind of arguments that lead to the first thread locked. I sincerely hope that there will be some kind of erratta AND reprint that put things back on rails. But it seems that its not going to happen until next edition (since it seems nobody in CGL really cares about correcting once published stuff).
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When I'm creating any NPC (which I tend to do "by eye" rather than sticking exactly to a budget), I base their Edge stat off the Professional Rating for grunts. Seems to work out pretty well for me.
Hell, there's a 60-Karma PC at my table who has Magic 6 and Edge 6. He's the face. :o
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Judging by your reaction, I'm guessing he's not a social adept.
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The karma budget was "Best judgement." Thorn's been an active spy/terrorist/runner for most of the twenty-first century. Lugh Surehand has been around a long, long time.
According to calculation, Thorn "weights" 2969 karma (an average of 50 karma per year), and Luch Surehand 4211, plus contacts and money.
Yeah, sometimes I do get bored.
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But...I can see that this is the kind of arguments that lead to the first thread locked. I sincerely hope that there will be some kind of erratta AND reprint that put things back on rails. But it seems that its not going to happen until next edition (since it seems nobody in CGL really cares about correcting once published stuff).
You'd need to talk to someone on the publishing side for that, but, I believe that eratta gets added in for later printings. The first, and often second, are out before the things the playtesters and proofreaders miss are caught by the larger base. (Keep in mind, a half dozen proofreaders versus a thousand gamers means that the larger pool will catch things that squeeze through.) ... once these are detailed and compiled, an online eratta gets made, which then gets cycled in for future print runs. It can take a while for a run to drain, mind you, and if a book sells slowly, it can be seemingly forever until the corrections get in. On some products, there *is* no reprint, and the online remains the only option. (This you see mostly on adventures, which are low sellers, instead of sourcebooks, which sell well.)
PDFs are tech that I know nothing about in terms of layout and the like. I'd *think* that it's easier, but, I know that there're technical complexities to them that traditional printing doesn't have. One of the smart people will be along to whap me in the head with actual details, I'm sure.
The big thing is to keep error threads on point, "Page 13, paragraph four, 'Teh' shoudl be 'The"' is fine, as would be, "Page 74, Damien Knight is the CEO, not Richard Villers" ... things like "Lofwyr retiring to focus on his quilting hobby is STUPID and you should die in a fire" is, obviously, not. :) All of us make mistakes, so helping to catch and correct them is handy.
A personal example, in Twilight Horizon, I made a booboo in my draft. Kane's one true love is a lass by the name of Kat. I managed a mental hiccup that this was Kat-o-Nine-Tales, the Jackpointer. I had a bit of banter between the two of them about the release of 'Kat in the Kradle', a 'romantic adventure' sim that was due to be released. Problem is? Wrong Kat. D'oh. Jason corrected that one for me, so the error never saw print (thank goodness!) The stuff that DOES get caught never gets seen, since the drafts never get released, but the handful that make it past do, which colors perception.
I shudder to think of what would happen if my raw drafts got out, chalk full or spelling errors, first-passes before cleanup, and so on. The guys up the chain work their collective tushes off to make the writers look good, but they only get complaints over what's missed, not compliments on what's caught, since that work is invisible.
To throw a analogy out there, take a gander at your local McDonalds. When an order gets messed up, people get upset, sometimes downright angry, and will raise a small fuss. Some people go and raise a huge to-do about it, demand to see a manager, and throw a fit. How many people ever ask for a managr and say, "Hey, my order came out just the way I wanted it, the cashier was kind, and everything was fast. I just wanted to say thank you, and ask you to pass that on to the crew for a job well done."
Do that, just one time, and people will *beam* at you, because no one ever gets thanked for 'just doing the job', but they get nailed when something goes wrong.
Mind you, I have a singel chapter of a single book under my belt, so, I'm not the expert here, but I can't tell you how much *I* appreciate the proofers and the editors. I'm a rookie writer. I'm gonna make mistakes, soem small (A few words I can never spell), some fairly large (Wrong Kat!), and some that might be huge (No, Wak, Lofwyr is not a skunk. Where would you even *get* that from?!) ... luckily, they've got my back.
I think I've rambled enough. Keep reading, and by all means, when you find errors, please pass it along! Can't get better unless we know where mistakes are.
-- Wak
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But...I can see that this is the kind of arguments that lead to the first thread locked. I sincerely hope that there will be some kind of erratta AND reprint that put things back on rails. But it seems that its not going to happen until next edition (since it seems nobody in CGL really cares about correcting once published stuff).
... ... once these are detailed and compiled, an online eratta gets made, which then gets cycled in for future print runs. It can take a while for a run to drain, mind you, and if a book sells slowly, it can be seemingly forever until the corrections get in. On some products, there *is* no reprint, and the online remains the only option. (This you see mostly on adventures, which are low sellers, instead of sourcebooks, which sell well.)
I only want to point out Arsenal reprint without Erratta being incorporated to the text, one for all. if you show this kind of professionalism to your local Johnson, you never get called again :)
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The karma budget was "Best judgement." Thorn's been an active spy/terrorist/runner for most of the twenty-first century. Lugh Surehand has been around a long, long time.
According to calculation, Thorn "weights" 2969 karma (an average of 50 karma per year), and Luch Surehand 4211, plus contacts and money.
Yeah, sometimes I do get bored.
See, those numbers make perfect sense to me. 1 karma per week, with 2 weeks off for vacation per year.
What's the general consensus on runs per year? I think our group averages 1-2 per game month. With 4-6 karma gain per run, we can be as cool as Thorn in about 20 years!
Yeah, so, anyway...
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And...related to original question...from answers above it seems that yes, you can ignore rules to create characters who are really awesome.. Because not only they need to have 4,5,6 as a success, but also they need uncontrolled growth in Edge dicepool.
1) "They" don't get a success on a 4,5,6. As an optional rule, everyone involved in a scene they're in gets a success on a 4,5,6. If you choose to use that rule, it's there to mimic the cinematic rules (and larger-than-life nature of many of the SR novels, etc)...but, if so, then you chose to use it.
2) There's no uncontrolled growth in Edge. Yeah, one guy has a 10. It's been said -- repeatedly -- that that was a simple error. Likewise, several of them have high Edge, but others have very high Edge. Those with very high Edge are nothing that can't be explained away with Lucky, but for one reason or another it seems to have just not been put in.
The book's got some errors, but it's not like every writer involved was just willy-nilly making shit up as we went. I know it's the internet, so hyperbole is the norm rather than the exception, but I think borderline threadcrapping (saying something you even even admit to being the same sort of thing that got the last thread locked) does some otherwise legitimate complaints a disservice.
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According to calculation, Thorn "weights" 2969 karma (an average of 50 karma per year), and Luch Surehand 4211, plus contacts and money.
See, those numbers make perfect sense to me. 1 karma per week, with 2 weeks off for vacation per year.
What's the general consensus on runs per year? I think our group averages 1-2 per game month. With 4-6 karma gain per run, we can be as cool as Thorn in about 20 years!
On the other hand, Surehand barely got one karma every two years. That's assuming karma would be somewhat gained on a linear basis. The more experienced and thus powerful a character, the rarest the situations that deserve handing karma become : a 16-years old Thorn evading a policemen raid on an IRA safehouse should have been handed more karma than a 59-years old Thorn would after single handedly defeating an entire squad of MET2000 elite mercenaries.
At some point, it becomes like if John McLane was going through an episode of NYPD Blues.
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At some point, it becomes like if John McLane was going through an episode of NYPD Blues.
He'd be on screen for five minutes, then put on unpaid probation due to being drunk.
EDIT: Or for dropping fake terrorists off of buildings. That never goes well in the media.
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According to calculation, Thorn "weights" 2969 karma (an average of 50 karma per year), and Luch Surehand 4211, plus contacts and money.
See, those numbers make perfect sense to me. 1 karma per week, with 2 weeks off for vacation per year.
What's the general consensus on runs per year? I think our group averages 1-2 per game month. With 4-6 karma gain per run, we can be as cool as Thorn in about 20 years!
On the other hand, Surehand barely got one karma every two years. That's assuming karma would be somewhat gained on a linear basis. The more experienced and thus powerful a character, the rarest the situations that deserve handing karma become : a 16-years old Thorn evading a policemen raid on an IRA safehouse should have been handed more karma than a 59-years old Thorn would after single handedly defeating an entire squad of MET2000 elite mercenaries.
At some point, it becomes like if John McLane was going through an episode of NYPD Blues.
Of course, Surehand also spent much of that time sitting pretty doing next to nothing except playing High Prince of the Tir.
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Of course, Surehand also spent much of that time sitting pretty doing next to nothing except playing High Prince of the Tir.
Awarding karma
Getting the Princes Council to vote one decision: 1 karma -done-
- if Alachia was attending: +1 karma -done-
- if Lofwyr was attending: +1 karma -done-
Preventing Oregon economy from going bankrupt this month: 1 karma -done-
Making Oregon a world power: 1 karma -still pending-
Aspecting Crater Lake toward Blood Wood Magic: 1 karma -still pending-
Getting an autographed copy of Ehran latest book before the world release date: 1 karma -still pending, that obnoxious bitch-
Surviving Thorn's assassination attempt-of-the-month: 1 karma -done-
Getting a canon write-up by Nigel Findley: 1 karma -done, now try to get that point, you rookie-
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Of course, Surehand also spent much of that time sitting pretty doing next to nothing except playing High Prince of the Tir.
Awarding karma
Getting the Princes Council to vote one decision: 1 karma -done-
- if Alachia was attending: +1 karma -done-
- if Lofwyr was attending: +1 karma -done-
Preventing Oregon economy from going bankrupt this month: 1 karma -done-
Making Oregon a world power: 1 karma -still pending-
Aspecting Crater Lake toward Blood Wood Magic: 1 karma -still pending-
Getting an autographed copy of Ehran latest book before the world release date: 1 karma -still pending, that obnoxious bitch-
Surviving Thorn's assassination attempt-of-the-month: 1 karma -done-
Getting a canon write-up by Nigel Findley: 1 karma -done, now try to get that point, you rookie-
+1 to you, sir!
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With regard to the write-ups in SL and SLS . . . confirms a suspicion of mine: most of those people would make awesome teachers. Assuming anyone could convince them that there are worthy student out there.
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And that's how /dev/grrl got onto the JackPoint.
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I still wanna know who FastJack lost a bet with.
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With regard to the write-ups in SL and SLS . . . confirms a suspicion of mine: most of those people would make awesome teachers. Assuming anyone could convince them that there are worthy student out there.
Some of 'em would, others,not so much.
(Hey Haze, you want to run a sex ed class? Do I?!)
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I still wanna know who FastJack lost a bet with.
My money is on a free spirit, a free sprite, or a dragon. Any takers?
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I still wanna know who FastJack lost a bet with.
My money is on a free spirit, a free sprite, or a dragon. Any takers?
Oo, oo, pick me! Pick me!
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I still wanna know who FastJack lost a bet with.
My money is on a free spirit, a free sprite, or a dragon. Any takers?
Oo, oo, pick me! Pick me!
Not my character "Money", actual money. Cold, hard Nuyen. PCC Plastic Bills to be exact. Non-sequential, unmarked, old.
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It would have to be a runner. Fastjack may know technomancers, but he's not likely to attract the attention of a free sprite. Likewise, free spirits probably wouldn't have much to do with him, either. And he doesn't seem like the 'make bets with dragons' type. No, it is probably a runner, unless he's been having chats with the Laughing Man.
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And that's how /dev/grrl got onto the JackPoint.
I figured she hacked her way on, and Jack, all impressed she could manage it, made her official?
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Judging by your reaction, I'm guessing he's not a social adept.
Mystic Adept mixing Asatru and Speaker's Way. He's amazing at his niche and a bit poo at everything else - which is sort of the point, really.
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With regard to the write-ups in SL and SLS . . . confirms a suspicion of mine: most of those people would make awesome teachers. Assuming anyone could convince them that there are worthy student out there.
Some of 'em would, others,not so much.
(Hey Haze, you want to run a sex ed class? Do I?!)
Point to you. I was thinking of Thorn, Elijah, Winterhawk, Picador, Kat'o'Nine Tales . . . but that's just my wish-list :)
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Can I take an Ethics class from Puck?
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Can I take an Ethics class from Puck?
*Checks the list*
No, I'm afraid that his class is full (And he's teaching Drama, anyway.)
However, I do have an opening for Clockwork's Ethics Class. Rare that, as it's seen as an easy A.
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Can I take an Ethics class from Puck?
*Checks the list*
No, I'm afraid that his class is full (And he's teaching Drama, anyway.)
However, I do have an opening for Clockwork's Ethics Class. Rare that, as it's seen as an easy A.
Clockwork cannot teach Ethics...he does not have a high enough degree in it. I doubt he even has a bachelors in Ethics...
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Can I take an Ethics class from Puck?
*Checks the list*
No, I'm afraid that his class is full (And he's teaching Drama, anyway.)
However, I do have an opening for Clockwork's Ethics Class. Rare that, as it's seen as an easy A.
Clockwork cannot teach Ethics...he does not have a high enough degree in it. I doubt he even has a bachelors in Ethics...
Hence, the easy A. ;)
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Can I take an Ethics class from Puck?
*Checks the list*
No, I'm afraid that his class is full (And he's teaching Drama, anyway.)
However, I do have an opening for Clockwork's Ethics Class. Rare that, as it's seen as an easy A.
Damn. Guess I'll have to go with Aufheben's Home Ec class...
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I'm in Plan 9's Politics Class, and Slamm-0!s Gym Class.
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Can I take an Ethics class from Puck?
*Checks the list*
No, I'm afraid that his class is full (And he's teaching Drama, anyway.)
However, I do have an opening for Clockwork's Ethics Class. Rare that, as it's seen as an easy A.
"Today, class, we're going to discuss the only ethical thing in life: Getting paid. Screw everyone else to the wall, collect your pay, and walk out the door. Got that? Class dismissed. I got a date with a Johnson."
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Can I take an Ethics class from Puck?
*Checks the list*
No, I'm afraid that his class is full (And he's teaching Drama, anyway.)
However, I do have an opening for Clockwork's Ethics Class. Rare that, as it's seen as an easy A.
"Today, class, we're going to discuss the only ethical thing in life: Getting paid. Screw everyone else to the wall, collect your pay, and walk out the door. Got that? Class dismissed. I got a date with a Johnson."
You left out "and technomancers must be exterminated!"
Hmm, now I'm thinking there's a common sound coming from Clockwork's drones . . . :o
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Can I take an Ethics class from Puck?
*Checks the list*
No, I'm afraid that his class is full (And he's teaching Drama, anyway.)
However, I do have an opening for Clockwork's Ethics Class. Rare that, as it's seen as an easy A.
"Today, class, we're going to discuss the only ethical thing in life: Getting paid. Screw everyone else to the wall, collect your pay, and walk out the door. Got that? Class dismissed. I got a date with a Johnson."
You left out "and technomancers must be exterminated!"
Hmm, now I'm thinking there's a common sound coming from Clockwork's drones . . . :o
Well Clockwork is short and ugly and we don't know his real name... but does that make Slammo a Matrix Lord and Netcat his lovely companion?
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Nah . . . FastJack(SR) is the Matrix Lord and both 'kids' are his tagalongs/companions ;)