[ZeConster]

Mad Hamish: until the errata comes out, people are assuming the "for-now errata" from the Missions FAQ will apply: 5 Karma per Power Point, not 2. But yes, 30 Karma is still what raising a single Attribute from 5 to 6 would cost. As for Improved Reflexes: 3.5 Power Points gives you 3+3d6 (13.5 on average) bonus Initiative, which is inbetween 5 hits (5+2d6, 12 on average) and 6 hits (6+3d6, 16.5 on average) on an Increase Reflexes spell.

[Michael Chandra]

And a Force 6 Increase Reflexes costs 24 karma to sustain through a quality. Force 4 is either 16 through a quality or 8+16k nuyen with a focus, which is pretty much 16 at chargen since you're probably Resources E. Meanwhile, if we assume it's 5 karma per PP errata'd, it's 12.5 karma without you risking involving foci addiction. And unlike the spell, it doesn't give +4 intiative but instead actually gives you Reaction, which only is +2 but also gives +2 to dodge. And it saves you a spell slot. Meanwhile, Force 6 vs Improved Reflexes 3 is 17.5 karma instead of the 24 or 12+24k nuyen after chargen (not possible during).

[Xenon]

Adrenaline Boost Adept Power does not stack with Wired Reflexes Cyberware or Improved Reflexes Adept Power.


...But it does stack with the Increase Reflexes spell

[All4BigGuns]

The whole crux of the matter is that if the "munchers" will choose something over another choice every time than that means it's a viable choice without "munching out".

[Dracain]

I am just going to suggest that you go with this clever little houserule that came up in the thread about Mystic Adepts I made. 

After chargen, instead of getting a free PP with magic level up, as a mage does, they have to pay the new PP in karma.  First PP would be 1 karma, second would be 2, third would be 3 and so on.  PP still would cost 5 karma in chargen. 

I also like to suggest slightly different setup for MAs in chargen.  Instead of getting spells, they get to choose between getting a spell or a PP.  For example, instead of 10 spells, a priority A MA could get 10 spells, or they could have 6 PP and 4 spells, and so on.  This lets people be a bit more freeform in their MA creation. 

[Michael Chandra]

Would they be able to buy PP up to their Magic afterwards that they didn't buy in chargen? Or is a not-bought PP at chargen gone forever? Because with that second case, that spell-trading would be required. Also, what happens if you lack the karma when you raise your Magic? Do you go into debt, lose the option, can you buy it later?

Under 5 karma or a spellslot per PP, and 5 or X karma afterwards when raising Magic, I'd definitely go for Focused Concentration 6, trade in 6 spell slots and go crazy with the remaining 1+negqualities karma. =) If I could buy afterwards but the PP go up, I'd not take PP in chargen, keep 7 karma and buy 4 PP for 10 karma after the first run. It'd be fuuuun.

[Xenon]

Btw. How does the current system work?

You go Mystic adept. You get 5 magic during chargen but only pay 15 karma for 3PP (or 9PP depending on who you very as GM).

But what happens post chargen. Can I buy the remaining 2 Pp up to my magic rating after chargen? Will it still cost 5 karma (or 2 karma) per PP?

If not.... what happens when I raise magic to 6. Will I get 1PP for free or will I get the 2 PP I missed from chargen for free as well....? Are they lost forever if I don't but then during chargen.

[Rapier]

I would suggest caution before going on rants about overpowerement, we do not know what astral space restrictions imply at this point and thus we do not know what the Mystic adept gives up in return.

In the Street Magic book we might bet some very useful metamagic teckniques that are for full magicians only, ways to handle drain, summoning familiar spirits restrictions, whatever. At this point people are getting emotional and polarized while comparing apples to oranges. In SR4 if you were a mystic adept and your familiar was disrupted you had to wait 1 month because you could not go get it back. What if now the banishments lasts for 1 year and 1 day? What if forever? What if you cant do aspecting without fill astral projection? What if etc? One thing is for sure, they are bringing refinements and improvements like the wireless bonus for cyberware or others so I expect some unanticipated new stuff for magic as well.

Remember that astral projection is very flexible and powerful, combined with a familiar/bound spiris you can launch an attack/influence, anywhere in the world if unrestricted.

At least wait for the magic supplement comes out before requesting changes in RAW.

Rapier

[Dracain]

Would they be able to buy PP up to their Magic afterwards that they didn't buy in chargen? Or is a not-bought PP at chargen gone forever? Because with that second case, that spell-trading would be required. Also, what happens if you lack the karma when you raise your Magic? Do you go into debt, lose the option, can you buy it later?

Under 5 karma or a spellslot per PP, and 5 or X karma afterwards when raising Magic, I'd definitely go for Focused Concentration 6, trade in 6 spell slots and go crazy with the remaining 1+negqualities karma. =) If I could buy afterwards but the PP go up, I'd not take PP in chargen, keep 7 karma and buy 4 PP for 10 karma after the first run. It'd be fuuuun.

They can buy PP up after chargen just fine.  You buy PP separately from magic, so magic costs the same, then later, if you want, you can buy the PP. 

[ZeConster]

Would they be able to buy PP up to their Magic afterwards that they didn't buy in chargen? Or is a not-bought PP at chargen gone forever? Because with that second case, that spell-trading would be required. Also, what happens if you lack the karma when you raise your Magic? Do you go into debt, lose the option, can you buy it later?

Under 5 karma or a spellslot per PP, and 5 or X karma afterwards when raising Magic, I'd definitely go for Focused Concentration 6, trade in 6 spell slots and go crazy with the remaining 1+negqualities karma. =) If I could buy afterwards but the PP go up, I'd not take PP in chargen, keep 7 karma and buy 4 PP for 10 karma after the first run. It'd be fuuuun.

They can buy PP up after chargen just fine.  You buy PP separately from magic, so magic costs the same, then later, if you want, you can buy the PP.

That's not what the Power Points section on pages 278-279 says: it says that after chargen, the only ways to get Power Points are Initiating and raising your Magic.

[Xenon]

Maybe a house rule is in order....

• Physical] Adepts always get free PP up to Magic rating.
• Mystic Adepts always pay 5 Karma per PP up to Magic rating.

[Dracain]

Maybe a house rule is in order....

• Physical] Adepts always get free PP up to Magic rating.
• Mystic Adepts always pay 5 Karma per PP up to Magic rating.

That's the idea, but another idea that I find makes more sense both fluffwise and mechanically is that it is 5 Karma per PP up to magic rating in chargen, and outside chargen the Karma cost is equal to the new rank.  This makes is more like a skill or a knowledge, being cheaper at lower levels, and more costly later on. 

[Xenon]

Maybe a house rule is in order....

• Physical] Adepts always get free PP up to Magic rating.
• Mystic Adepts always pay 5 Karma per PP up to Magic rating.

That's the idea, but another idea that I find makes more sense both fluffwise and mechanically is that it is 5 Karma per PP up to magic rating in chargen, and outside chargen the Karma cost is equal to the new rank.  This makes is more like a skill or a knowledge, being cheaper at lower levels, and more costly later on.

But more complicated to explain. SR5 = simplicity.
What if i have 5 magic at chargen but only buy 3PP for 15 karma.
Will the 4th PP cost me 4PP after chargen...?
Then it would be better to not buy PP during chargen. Save 7 Karma and buy:
PP1 = 1 Karma
PP2 = 2 Karma
PP3 = 3 Karma
= total 6 Karma instead of 15 Karma during chargen....
Simplicity (such as always 5 Karma per PP or always free PP up to Magic rating) mean fewer loopholes and edge cases.

[Dracain]

Maybe a house rule is in order....

• Physical] Adepts always get free PP up to Magic rating.
• Mystic Adepts always pay 5 Karma per PP up to Magic rating.

That's the idea, but another idea that I find makes more sense both fluffwise and mechanically is that it is 5 Karma per PP up to magic rating in chargen, and outside chargen the Karma cost is equal to the new rank.  This makes is more like a skill or a knowledge, being cheaper at lower levels, and more costly later on.

But more complicated to explain. SR5 = simplicity.
What if i have 5 magic at chargen but only buy 3PP for 15 karma.
Will the 4th PP cost me 4PP after chargen...?
Then it would be better to not buy PP during chargen. Save 7 Karma and buy:
PP1 = 1 Karma
PP2 = 2 Karma
PP3 = 3 Karma
= total 6 Karma instead of 15 Karma during chargen....
Simplicity (such as always 5 Karma per PP or always free PP up to Magic rating) mean fewer loopholes and edge cases.

Ok, before I say my thoughts on the system, I want to just get something off my back that has been bothering me about what people are saying in SR5.  That is the SR5=simplicity line I hear whenever someone wants to just go the simple route instead of fixing the problem properly.  The dev diaries said they where trying to streamline Shadowrun, not overly simplify it.  While SR5 is more simple then SR4, it is still one of the more complex RPGs, so a little karma cost scaling should be fine, especially given that is happens with almost eveything else where the number raises (knowledge skills, active skills, attributes, initiation grade, etc.). 

In response to the excellent point you made, I have thought of that, but I was just showing what I had at the time from the other thread, while I tried to think up some way to fix that problem.  I have two, outside of just leaving it as it is and saying that they're paying to have their PP early.  . 

The first would be to simply bring the karma cost to be the same in chargen, this is the worse of the two, because it would make it far too easy to start out with maxed out PP for little to no cost. 

My personal preference goes to having karma cost 5 PP up until you try and upgrade to 6, then it goes to the system of costing the new rank, so it would go like this
PP1-5=5 Karma each
PP6=6 Karma
PP7=7 Karma
And so on. 
This is the same in chargen, so if you where to try and buy the 6th PP, you would need to pay 6 karma.  It is basically a linear learning pattern until you get to a certain point, then it starts gradually getting more and more difficult. 

[Crunch]

What would the balance ramifications of going back to 2 karma per PP for chargen and then having mystic Adepts gain Power Points ONLY through initiation metamagic? It would at least make the Mystic Adept choose between Mage and Adept on a regular basis.

Just spit balling.