[Mäx]

It's also worth noting that turning Wireless on or off is a free action, as is the command to detonate, so you can't do both on the same action phase.

Yes you can:
Free action to turn on wireless
simple action to throw
free action as simple to detonate.

[tequila]

I just reread the grenade rules on p181, and I only see one instance where the target gets a defense test:  Motion Sensor.  This works like a regular Ranged Attack Test and would get that -2 dice penalty for being targeted by an AOE attack.  Built-In Timer & Wireless are a straight Threshold (3) test.  If you are still in the AOE on the throwers next Combat Turn or when it is wirelessly detonated, then you suck the damage.

The Indirect Combat AOE spells (p283) could be a little better worded I think.  As written, it is just a Threshold Test (3), no chance for defense test.  One could infer from the text of that -2 penalty for being targeted by an AOE attack that if someone were actually targeted by the spell, they would get a defense test with the -2 penalty just like the target of a Motion Sensor timed  grenade would get.

[Michael Chandra]

I much preferred the SR4 FAQ answer where aiming at a location to hit a person still was an opposed test. Because honestly, if I can move 50m in 1 CT, there's no way I'm just 'standing still'. Really think it should be an opposed test, perhaps with a +2 TH for the attacker, and you basically get out of dodge and create distance with defender hits. Same with a fireball. Or you could do the Threshold test and then give the people near it a simple dodge test to make distance. Since the explosion is an area thing, the second might be the best way to go, no silly "he hits the right spot because he targetted the floor near the slowest of you so all of you take more damage".

Then as GM you'd rule "okay, you jumped 3m away from the thing, that flushed you out of your cover."

[lightknight]

Besides, like it makes sense that you get to "dodge" bullets for free but not grenade blasts.

You don't dodge bullets - you dodge the aim of the person behind the gun.  Dodging the aim of someone throwing a grenade next to you doesn't do much.

So that's how it works, let me tell my friends and family in the military all they have to do is dodge the aim of the Taliban and they too can survive automatics fire.  The game is a gross abstraction and as such saying that it makes sense for a defense roll every time you get shot at makes sense but not for thrown grenades, in itself makes no sense.  At least apply the abstraction across the board.  Or if you need "logic" behind it, my reaction + intuition allows me to realize and react  where he's throwing the grenade and move away from that spot.

I still stick by my assessment until errata.  The text RAW allow defense tests against grenades and I'd be disappointed if they changed it, as some others have correctly surmised, removing so may lead to the first person to launch a grenade wins.

[Ryo]

Grenades are at least forbidden, but they could probably stand to be a higher availability, and probably should be more expensive too. I mean yeah, grenades are inherently superior to guns for killing people, but that's kind of accurate to reality, isn't it? If you really could throw a grenade and command it to explode as soon as it got where you wanted it to go, whoever you threw it at would be totally screwed.

But that doesn't mean armies would suddenly replace all their soldier's guns with grenade launchers. Grenades are not used that often, nor should they be. As the GM, I'd make grenades tossed at my players pretty rare, limited to situations where they royally pissed someone off, and they aren't standing near anything that the opposition cares about. And if my players went around with bandoleers of grenades and grenade launchers and such, they are going to very rapidly become high Notoriety, high Public Awareness mad bomber menaces to society.

It's also worth noting that turning Wireless on or off is a free action, as is the command to detonate, so you can't do both on the same action phase.

Yes you can:
Free action to turn on wireless
simple action to throw
free action as simple to detonate.

You also have to ready the grenade as a Simple Action before you can throw it. No matter what, you are going to end your turn with a grenade in your hand, possibly armed, or on target and unexploded, giving the other side time to either try to hack it, shoot you in the face, or start running.

[Psikerlord]

i am hoping the above is a saving grace to balance grenades, and while u cannot quickdraw a grenade launcher (and there is no underbarrel grenade launcher accessory or pistol sized grenade shooter currently), cant you quickdraw a grenade and throw it as one simple action. so in one phase you turn on wireless (simple, not an attacking action- or is it?), quickdraw simple and throw, finally free action detonate.

in our campaign all nades will be min avail 18, like rockets. and some kind of houserule hit the ground bonus to soak.

[SwiftOne]

So that's how it works, let me tell my friends and family in the military all they have to do is dodge the aim of the Taliban and they too can survive automatics fire.

While you're talking, ask them if they intend to stand still when someone points a gun at them.  and if the shooter misses, did they "dodge bullets"?

Or if you need "logic" behind it, my reaction + intuition allows me to realize and react  where he's throwing the grenade and move away from that spot.

Sure - and if you move more than 1m, the damage is reduced.

may lead to the first person to launch a grenade wins.

I agree this is a tactical hole in the rules.  I'll also agree that there is an apparent contradiction in the AOE defense, unless that is intended for indirect spells only.   (which would be unclear at best)

[Mäx]

Grenades are at least forbidden

Only the ones you just gave a multitude of reasons not to use.
Flashbangs are only restricted and heck pepper punch gas grenades are actually 100% legal you can can carry them anywhere.

[Ryo]

flashbangs and gas grenades don't one-shot enemies. Pepper punch is brutal, but easily countered if a player is abusing it.

"I throw a gas grenade at them and win the fight."

"Did I mention you guys are down wind? Because you have a cloud of pepper punch coming at you now."

[GiraffeShaman]

There's excellent reasons for both corp security and shadowrunners to not use explosive grenades on a regular basis, just as there's excellent reasons not to use all sorts of high explosives on corporate property.

However stun grenades are always a TPK in the making if a GM is liberal with them. I've never really found a solution to this, other than to show great restraint with them. You see, throwing items with a random scatter in a confined building, skill or not, always favors the GM. Simply because there are only an average of 4 runners, but there are  always more mooks. Yes, some rentacaps may knock themselves out, but throw enough times and the shadowrunners will fall.

[Ryo]

There's excellent reasons for both corp security and shadowrunners to not use explosive grenades on a regular basis, just as there's excellent reasons not to use all sorts of high explosives on corporate property.

However stun grenades are always a TPK in the making if a GM is liberal with them. I've never really found a solution to this, other than to show great restraint with them. You see, throwing items with a random scatter in a confined building, skill or not, always favors the GM. Simply because there are only an average of 4 runners, but there are  always more mooks. Yes, some rentacaps may knock themselves out, but throw enough times and the shadowrunners will fall.

Why do you need a solution other than 'don't use them very often?' Everything always favors the GM. The entire job of the GM is to know how to challenge the players just enough to make the game fun, and maybe a bit dangerous, without utterly crushing them. You don't have corp security hurling multiple grenades at your runners for the same reason you don't have 10 guys with belt fed HMGs show up, flank your group, and open up with full auto.

Balance issues are all about the player side of thing. The GM can always decide what is or isn't appropriate to use on the runners. The problems start happening when the players start using tactics that require the GM to bring the hammer down just as hard.

[GiraffeShaman]

Why do you need a solution other than 'don't use them very often?' Everything always favors the GM. The entire job of the GM is to know how to challenge the players just enough to make the game fun, and maybe a bit dangerous, without utterly crushing them. You don't have corp security hurling multiple grenades at your runners for the same reason you don't have 10 guys with belt fed HMGs show up, flank your group, and open up with full auto.

You have an excellent point. And I've always been able to restrain myself. I am a player at times though and have witnessed more than one TPK caused by stun grenade. I'm hoping GMs will have more restraint in the future.

I do think some groups would have an easier time with the HMG guys than the heavy use of stun grandes. But your point stands. There are plenty of ways for a GM to screw players over if that is their goal, such as cameras and explosives.

[Psikerlord]

It is an availability issue though. HMGs are different, not portable, expensive, etc. stun grenades are cheap and super effective, and they dont break stuff (do they? concussion stun dmg arent they?). All grenades should be availability 18+ imo for balance reasons, even if it doesnt really make sense lore wise. Even so the GM has to manage the game. It would just be a whole lot easier without grenades!

[GiraffeShaman]

It is an availability issue though. HMGs are different, not portable, expensive, etc. stun grenades are cheap and super effective, and they dont break stuff (do they? concussion stun dmg arent they?). All grenades should be availability 18+ imo for balance reasons, even if it doesnt really make sense lore wise. Even so the GM has to manage the game. It would just be a whole lot easier without grenades!

The availability doesn't matter for the Corpsec. All that really matters is the cost. Unless it's something ridiculously rare like a monowhip, Corpsec can probaly get it. What really restricts  them is costs, since Corps are notoriously cheap with the outlying sites and subsidiaries newer shadowrunners typically run against. (Of course this is part of what makes stun grenades a tempting DM treat)

The odds just are against PCs who employ stun grenades a lot inside buildings. They'll eventually knock themselves out. And that's even without factoring glitches and critical glitches.

So yes, GM restraint is what is called for. If you want to have a campaign that actually lasts a while.

Oh, and also the Barrens battlegrounds is where we'll really see these grenade rules killing some people. So maybe get a high lifestyle and move to Bellevue. Only take runs against corporate targets. Safer all around, heheh.

[Xenon]

It's also worth noting that turning Wireless on or off is a free action, as is the command to detonate, so you can't do both on the same action phase. If you're using a wireless linked grenade, you have to spend at least one action phase either with it in your possession and ready to explode, or already on target and needed to be set off with your next action...

Or you fire you gun...
(using the Fire Semi-Auto, Single-Shot, Burst Fire or Full-Auto simple action p.165)
... and ready the grenade in your previous action phase.
(Ready Weapon simple action p.165)

Spend your first simple action to turn wireless ON with the manual switch
(The simple action is called Change Device Mode p.164)
Throw the grenade as another simple action.
(The Throw Weapon simple action p.166)
Detonate the grenade as a free action.
(Change Linked Device Mode free action p.163)


But since your targets get to do their normal defense roll (just with -2 because this is an AoE) i don't really see the issue here?