Shadowrun
Catalyst Game Labs => Errata => Topic started by: hobgoblin on <11-12-10/0225:10>
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One thing i would love to see clarified is vehicle launch weapons.
Right now there is zero info about how hardpoints and vehicle launch weapons interact, if at all.
The military aircrafts only have hardpoints listed if they are already used for machineguns or similar, so they are useless as examples.
Basically, how many outlaws, iron bombs or similar can a boeing-federated eagle carry? 1 pr (non-existent) hardpoint? 10? 1000? And if 1, can one use something to expand that capacity (like say ammo bins)?
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Um. Arsenal has all the rules that apply.
Vehicular weapons, gun or launched, can be mounted on either Fixed Mounts or Heavy Turret Mounts. Either way since they are larger than LMGs they also need the Reinforced size.
They are otherwise treated like any other weapon.
Mostly launch weapons get mounted on Fixed Mounts. The Aguilar attack helicopter has for example two fixed mounts on the winglets fitted with rockets, in addition to its chin-mounted MG turret.
-k
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Problem is that the helicopter uses 2 hail barrage rocket pods, not the launch weapons like outlaw or iron bomb.
As such, it is not a good example for how hardpoints and launch weapons interact. This because the hail barrage is basically a human scale rocket launcher with a bigger ammo capacity (it even uses the same ammo).
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For details on how to install weapons on vehicles, see the Weapon Mount entry of the Gear and Vehicle Modification chapter (p. 126).
Size: The size of a weapon mount determines which weapons you can mount into it. A normal weapon mount can hold a firearm of up to LMG size, while a reinforced weapon mount can hold firearms larger than LMG size. As a general rule, one weapon mount can be added to a vehicle for every 3 points of Body it has, rounded up. One reinforced weapon mount counts as two normal weapon mounts. Each weapon mount can also hold up to 250 rounds of ammunition, if the weapon has a beltfeed loading mechanism. Weapons with other loading mechanisms or larger ammunition (rocket launchers, for example) are restricted to their standard amount of ammunition.
So, if it's bigger than an LMG (and a launch weapon is) you need a reinforced mount.
If the weapon isn't belt-fed, or uses particularly large ammo (the launch weapon is the ammo), you are restricted to the normal ammo (Weapon = Ammo = 1).
Therefore, each reinforced mount can hold one, and only one, launch weapon.
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Making the eagle a joke as a multi-role fighter.
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Reinforced, fixed flexibility, remote control weapon mount = 2 slots. (Arsenal, pg. 145)
Slots available on the Eagle: 20 (slots equal to body or 4, whichever is less) (Arsenal, pg. 115 and 129)
So that's 10 launch weapons on an Eagle if you want nothing else. Not so lousy, when you run the actual numbers.
For reference:
The F-22 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-22#Armament) carries 8 missiles, that's 2 shy of our Boeing Federated Eagle.
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The problem is that hardpoints come with a special limitation. There can be only 1 hardpoint pr 3 body.
and reinforced mounts counts as 2.
so that is 20/3=6/2=3 reinforced hardpoints.
arsenal p147, under size.
There is also the issue that some weapons can be carried 3 at a time:
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Hardpoint#Ejector_racks
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The problem is that hardpoints come with a special limitation. There can be only 1 hardpoint pr 3 body.
and reinforced mounts counts as 2.
so that is 20/3=6/2=3 reinforced hardpoints.
arsenal p147, under size.
There is also the issue that some weapons can be carried 3 at a time:
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Hardpoint#Ejector_racks
As a general rule, one weapon mount can be added to a vehicle for every 3 points of Body it has, rounded up. One reinforced weapon mount counts as two normal weapon mounts.
Emphasis mine.
"As a general rule" is a nice way of saying "this isn't really a rule, but we wanted to refer back to the old rules in the core book". Or, "GM's discretion". It's an out, if your GM wants to limit guns on your sports car, he can say it's limited by the aforementioned.
If they wanted it to take 3 Body per weapon mount (6 for reinforced), they would have made it 3 and 6 respectively and detailed each of the other aspects as alternative weapon mounts, rather than modifying the slots required for the other two.
And yes, it is sad that there's no ejector racks in SR4, but such is life. As written, you can have 1 launch weapon per reinforced weapon mount, and one externally visibile, fixed flexibility, remote controlled reinforced weapon mount per 2 body. Unless your GM considers that particular vehicle to fall under the general rule limiting vehicles to 1 per 3 Body (1 per 6 Body for reinforced).
So, ultimately, like most things SR4A, the official rule is that it's the GM's decision.
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There is also the issue that some weapons can be carried 3 at a time:
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Hardpoint#Ejector_racks
Found a simple solution for this, reading through Arsenal.
Sometimes when you're expecting a lot of opposition, it's good to have lots of ammunition to deal with it. Each ammo bin is attached to a single weapon mount, and each additional ammo bin attached adds another 250 rounds of ammunition, belt feed, or doubles the weapon's normal ammunition capacity in the case of weapons with larger ammunition (such as rocket launchers).
Buy two of those for your external reinforced weapon mount, you can now sport 3 Sparrow Hawks (Anti-air missile) on a single weapon mount.
It's also worth noting that most of the launch weapons are heavy ground attack or anti-shipping. Not really multi-role fighter weapons. That falls more to the missile-launcher and LMG department. The only two I would expect to see on a multi-role fighter are Block 3 or 4 Outlaws and the AIM-27 Sparrow Hawk. The rest belong primarily to bombers, helicopters, or dedicated ground-attack (modern day A-10).
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I am aware of the ammo bin possibility, tho i would love to see it be an official rule (or suggestion, via the FAQ).
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I am aware of the ammo bin possibility, tho i would love to see it be an official rule (or suggestion, via the FAQ).
In what way is it not an official rule allready. ???
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I am aware of the ammo bin possibility, tho i would love to see it be an official rule (or suggestion, via the FAQ).
In what way is it not an official rule allready. ???
Problem is that launch weapons do not have a ammo capacity. As such neither the belted ammo clause nor the double capacity clause really applies. Launch weapons are self contained weapons, much in the same way as grenades. A simple "ammo bins allows weapon mounts to carry 1 more launch weapon pr bin" would make it perfectly clear.
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SR4a, page 320
Mitsubishi Yakusoku MRL: The internal loading mechanism of
the Yakusoku Multi Rocket Launcher allows it to insert up to 4 different
types of missiles (2 each) and choose freely (via the integrated
smartgun connection) which of them to fire with each shooting action.
Its two firing tubes also allow for a quicker rate of fire.
This weapon is mountable to any vehicle in a reinforced mount and can load up to 8 missiles or rockets or as it says mix and match. It also fires at semi-automatic rate.
none of the launch weapons in Arsenal offer that great of an advantage over standard missiles so why not use the MRL? which also can use the ammo bin mod.
16 missiles per point firing at 2 missiles per IP at 3 hardpoints (as hobgoblin suggested)one run by pilot program, one by rigger, and one by dedicated seconded seater is 6 missiles per IP. Thats 48 missiles firing in 8 IP. I don't really want to think what kind of broken numbers you'd get at 10 weapon mounts.
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The point of ten, Wayfinder, is to mix-and-match. Let's face it, if you're talking about a multi-role stealth combat jet, he isn't shooting at just infantry on the ground. Also, you must not be looking too closely at some of the damage codes for launch missiles, I like the 22P of an AIM-27 Sparrow Hawk much better than the 16P of an AV missile.
He'll have some missiles / rockets / guns geared towards anti-infantry, possibly capable of dealing with light armor.
* Block 1 Mitsubishi-GM Outlaws
* LMG's with good AP ammo and tracers
* Mitsubishi Yakusoku MRL loaded with HE or Inferno
Additional hardpoints will be dedicated to AA weapons (better sensor and AP ratings than the anti-infantry gear).
* LMG's / MMG's with APDS or AV rounds... and tracers
* Mitsubishi Yakusoku MRL loaded with SAM AV missiles at high sensor rating
* Saab-Saaker AIM-27 Sparrowhawk with high sensor rating
If he's truly multi-role, then, in addition to those first two, he'll have at least two missiles / bombs that are mid-sensor, high-damage, high-AP or very heavy guns for taking on main battle tanks and other hardened targets.
* HMG's loaded with APDS or AV rounds... and tracers
* Assault Cannons
* Block 3 or 4 Mitsubishi-GM Outlaws
Yeah, you can mix-and-match ammo in a Mitsubishi Yakusoku, but that gives you damage codes in the 14P - 16P range. Since vehicle armor is hardened armor (SR4A, pg. 167, Vehicle Armor) I say "yes please" to any increase in either AP or damage I can get when going up against serious vehicles like fighter craft or MBT's (I know, no official MBT yet, but it's not hard to simulate one with a modded Roadmaster or Conestoga Vista as your starting point). This is where launch weapons come in, the weakest non-torpedo launch weapons match launcher-based missiles in damage. The rest exceed, by 2 - 6 points no less, the damage of launcher-based missiles.
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while i have not checked the pdf myself yet, it seems that this has not been clarified in War...
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Nope, the only thing in War! that I saw, as relates to launch weapons, is the Aztechnology Sextillo, a cruise missile which loads 6 independently targetable launch weapons.
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Well atleast the planes in it have lot more weapon mounts then the pathetic Eagle-C and reinforced weapon mounts to boot, not normal ones.
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How did they pull that off? Writer fiat or insane body stats?
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How did they pull that off? Writer fiat or insane body stats?
Writer fiat from those 2 options, but standard upgrades aren't in anyway limited by the modding rules, so the term doesn't really ably.
Hell the Reaper drone in This old Drone has 4 weapon mounts and it's body 2 drone.
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Personally, I am pretty liberal about tossing out the "1 weapon mount per 3 body" general principle, myself. I weigh it by what weapons you're mounting. Five SMGs or pistols on a Doberman? Sure, that could work if they're fixed mounts. Look silly as hell, but it would work. Two gauss cannons on a jackrabbit? Okay, now we're going to have to rethink things...
Granted, by cheesing the fact that the 11 weapon mounts on the CI-89 Fighter-Bomber are standard mounts, even using the 1 for 3 rule, at Body 17, that's an additional 5 weapon mounts. That leaves 7 more points of Body to put the rest of the stuff you want. Yeah, I think the poor Eagle-C should be errata'd to fit in with the new kids on the block a little better.
And it's worth noting that I may have been wrong before, when I said that it's 1 reinforced weapon mount per 6 body, the rule reads as a simple 1 weapon mount per 3 body (pg. 147, Arsenal), regardless of it's size.
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And it's worth noting that I may have been wrong before, when I said that it's 1 reinforced weapon mount per 6 body, the rule reads as a simple 1 weapon mount per 3 body (pg. 147, Arsenal), regardless of it's size.
If you read like a one sentence futher your notice the part saying that reinforced mounts count as 2 weapon mounts ;)
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Bah, shush you! :-[
I love how I can manage to read something right, then read it again and completely miss it because I'm skimming the text looking for "6 points of Body" or similar, and miss the completely plain as day "counts as two normal weapon mounts".
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Ok, i was able to check the War vehicle stats. And from what i can tell all combat aircrafts come with a specified number of hardpoints. So maybe i should change the request to get a number of hardpoints errated onto the FB Eagle, as every other vehicle have them already (tho the Aztech Aguilar have them assigned to hail barrage launchers).
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Ok, i was able to check the War vehicle stats. And from what i can tell all combat aircrafts come with a specified number of hardpoints. So maybe i should change the request to get a number of hardpoints errated onto the FB Eagle, as every other vehicle have them already (tho the Aztech Aguilar have them assigned to hail barrage launchers).
That's where I'd lean at this point, make the Eagle-C competitive with other fighter craft of it's generation! It's the most expensive fighter plane available, it should have quality to compensate. The YNT Kanyuk Interceptor is an "8th Generation" fighter/interceptor, and it costs 30% of the Eagle, and has Body 4 lower... Also, what the heck is an "8th Generation" jet fighter...
For Reference (note, categories are rough and based on similarities, it's possible for a previous gen to have some of the features of a next gen):
First Gen - Prototypical jet fighters, weren't always better than prop fighters
Second Gen - Swept wing / delta wing forms, afterburners allowing super-sonic flight, onboard radar, first reliable IR air to air missiles.
Third Gen - Focus on Air-to-Air missiles for areal combat, renewed interest in Ground-attack capabilities resulting in reliable Multi-role fighters, analog avionics replacing steam guage instrumentation.
Fourth Gen - Fly By Wire introduced, RSS, OODA, and EM Theory resulting in highly maneuverable true multi-role fighters
Fight Gen - Matrix-ready (okay, they call it "net-centric", but we know the truth), AESA radars and integrated stealth features.
I know, the terms were coined by corporations to sell warplanes, and some people use clusters of years to define generation, but I prefer the technology-based approach. You build me a fighter jet relying on steam guage avionics with a swept wing and afterburners, you have yourself a 2nd gen fighter, regardless of when you built it.
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so, would 15 reinforced hardpoints be pushing it? ;)
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so, would 15 reinforced hardpoints be pushing it? ;)
Well, the fighter/bomber (CI-89 Vicious) gets 11 reinforced mounts, so I think I'd be happy to see the following for the Eagle-C:
Std. Ugrades:
Improved VTOL 1 (has already)
Personal Armor 5 (has already)
Ejection Seat (has already)
Rigger Adaptation
6 Reinforced Weapon Mounts (external, fixed, remote control)
2 Reinforced Weapon Mounts (internal, fixed, remote control)
1 Normal Weapon Mount (internal, fixed, remote control) (has already)
Life Support (Level 1)
ECM 4 (has already)
ECCM 4 (has already)
Lock-on countermeasures
And drop the price to ¥5mil. I think this brings it more in line with the aircraft presented in War. Without these changes (or similar), I don't see how the thing is useful. With them, it's a beefy plane with about as much off-the-shelf fire power as the YNT Kanyuk Interceptor, but a lower top speed & better armor. Ideal for bomber escort, air superiority and ground-support assignments.
My thoughts on application (to explain the breakdown of weapon mounts):
Normal Weapon Mount: 1 Already there, 2 spot for an LMG for strafing ground targets (multi-role fighter, remember) and last ditch aerial combat.
2 Reinforced Internal: Your call (though I'd be consistent once chosen), either wing-oriented to provide two additional machine guns (this time, HMG's) for aerial combat and ground support or in the fuselage as bomb-bays for stealthy carriage of launch weapons.
6 Reinforced External: External, on the wings, mission configurable. Typically launch weapons or missile launchers, in either case, potentially fitted with one or more ammo bins.
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Funny enough, it appears that milspectech lapsed in this. the aircrafts seems to have between 1 and 5 hardpoints so feel free to color me confused.
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I find that allot of the rules and stats for vehicles just aren't consistent between books so a FAQ would be nice. Also it would be nice if the descriptions included where the weapon mounts are on the vehicle and how many people can fit in it.
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Just to add a little more confusion:
Arsenal Pg. 123, Main Guns states: "Unless otherwise noted, all of the following weapons can be
installed into Fixed Weapon Mounts or Heavy Turrets"
That means that even an Gauss Cannon can installed in a normal, fixed weapon mount (a light autocannon can even be installed in a flexible weapon mount, see the entry under light autocannon). That, or somebody forgot to write "reinforced".
Some lines later at the following page, under "Launch Weapons" : "The following weapons are large, self-propelled projectiles
that can be fired from specialized launch platforms or released from the wings of aircraft s and helicopters.
The interresting point here is that there is no mention of weapon mounts at all ( well, you can say maybe they confused launch platform with weapon mount, but to use 2 so different words for the same thing would be really stupid). The launch weapon attached to an aircraft is just realesed from its clamp, falls a little distance and then starts its engine, ne special mount needed.
The way i read it is that you just put launch weapons under a wing, in case of aircrafts, without the need for a weapon mount. Of course it can be stored in a weapon mount (for better concealment, for example).
In case of other vehicles you need a weapon mount (cars, ships...just drop a missile from a ship or a car und start it may be funny, but not wise).
So, question: Why do some vehicles (in this case a bomber) need 11 reinforced weapon mounts? The only answer that make sense and i can come up with is: 2 reinforced weapon mounts can hold 1 cruise missile, which can be found under "Cruise Missiles" in War! (i would like to mention the page, but i only possess the german version, which includes several additional content und different page numbers).
So, all in all: if you have a lot of weapon mounts, you can use 1 for some sort of cannon and the rest for other vehicle weapons, like the Hail Barrage (or even for single missiles). If you just have one or two weapon mounts you can use them for cannons and attach some missiles under the wings of your aircraft. That would reduce reinforced weapon mounts to carry cruise missiles and heavy turrets.
But i really have no idea why a fixed, flexible weapon mount can hold a light autocannon, but not an HMG...maybe they really forgot to write "reinforced"...."aren´t consistent" descripes it exactly.
Mike
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Thing is that with no weight system to limit the number of launch weapons, one could have a Eagle with infinity-1 weapons loaded.
Thing is that in earlier edition, to fire launch weapons, one not only needed a reinforced weapon mount but also a launch system/computer that handled the weapons. So it could be a poor conversion of the earlier edition thinking into SR4 that we see the residue from.
And Unfriendly Skies is back to lowballing the number of weapon mounts (none marked as reinforced, heh). A 3000000 fighter with 3 mounts?!
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Well, i never claimed that the rules are clear...unfortunately they are not.
I think you can, according to the rules, launch missiles without weapon mounts, the number of missiles that can fit under a normal aircraft should be limited by common sense (4 to 8 missiles, i assume).
This way many of the SR combat aircrafts would make sense (at least more than a combat aircraft with either 1 missile or 1 cannon).
In the case of the vehicle weapons, i really believe they mean "reinforced weapon mounts".
That would mean that you can equip your aircraft with a cannon and some missiles.
Mike
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Usually when they expect common sense to be applied they slip in a "GM has the final say" line...
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Meh, i wonder if a 600Y (3 times the ammo bin price of 200Y) rack would be in order. This with the limit that they can only be used on reinforced external mounts but take up no mod slots (adding them require a kit), and can only hold launch weapons (3 pr rack, of the same kind).
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Maybe, but thats the only solution i can find that make a little sense and fit to the rules....
I mean, why do they write that vehicle weapons need a mount, but under launch weapons only write can be "released from the wings of aircraft s and helicopters" without even mention a weapon mount?
Mike
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Well they are a sub section of vehicle weapons, and the opening there mentions weapon mounts in generic terms.
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I know, but the question is: count the subsections as special rules (they sound like special rules)? If not, the authors made a really bad job (at least in my eyes).
Mike
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Well there was some issues with the release sequence thanks to the license transition from Fanpro to Catalyst, iirc.
So it could be that we are looking at a side effect of that. Sadly FAQ updates and Erratas have been on the back burner compared to new releases. Likely to try and get some profits going after the Catalyst financial mess...