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First Shadowrun Character - Face Adept Advice?

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duskflights

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« on: <02-23-17/2231:58> »
This will be my first foray into actually playing Shadowrun, though I started reading the books several years ago. 

Actually, no one in my group has ever played before.  GM is going to be running through some Missions runs (though not using the full Missions rules) - and then after that, looking into making his own plotline, if we're still on board with the new system.

We're all still hashing out roles (finishing up a Pathfinder campaign, so I have a few weeks).  But I'm probably the best one at our table suited for a Face, personality-wise, and I tend to enjoy the role.  So I'm starting with that.

I think I would have the most fun trying to be the silver-tongued devil, who can talk his way out of trouble as easily as breathing (or into it, just as fast!).  I'm thinking this GM will allow me to have quite a bit of social leeway, so long as it sounds reasonable.

What I'm looking for mostly is thought on how viable the concept is, and what changes I may need to make to not shoot myself in the foot with the rules.  I'm kind of in love with Adepts, and doubled down on power points, and I pushed Charisma to max on this first draft.  I've tried to tack on some sneaky infiltration skills, and I have some ideas on how I'll be spending my first few Karma.  I've left out a couple pieces of gear, to not clutter things up - this is long enough already!

I'd also like some ideas on how to distribute my 27 (!!) contact points, and my 10 knowledge skills (at least 3 points in languages, for flavor, and probably 2 points in nightclubs, or similar, but what else?)  I haven't really looked at Trid Phantasm - will my low dice pool be a deal-breaker? If so, what to replace it with? (Open to not having a spell)

Additional questions.  I can't find where Missions says you can or cannot Initiate at chargen.  Point me?  And how likely would a Missions GM be to allow me to just have 6,000¥, but sleep in a Middle-High apartment?  It wouldn't be my apartment, see - I'd walk into a club, and - with my 9 Charisma, 20+ dice for Seduction, and complete lack of shame - I'd never pay for my own drinks, nor leave alone!

GM Restrictions:
No campaign splatbooks.  NO PIXIES, nor Changelings. 
Can't take anything reserved exclusively for murder-hobos (GM's discretion, but common sense prevails).
Initiation is fine, but must buy hits on the test, and the group dues must be paid for every month the extended tests took.

== Info ==
Street Name: Hugin
Name: Rene Tarantathelle
Movement: 10/20
Karma: 1
Street Cred: 0
Notoriety: 0
Public Awareness: 0
Elf (Dryad)
Composure: 11
Judge Intentions: 12
Lift/Carry: 5 (45 kg/30 kg)
Memory: 4
Nuyen: 1910

== Priorities ==
Metatype: B - Any metatype
Attributes: C - 16 Attributes
Special: D - Adept or Aspected Magician
Skills: A - 46 Skills/10 Skill Groups
Resources: E - 6,000¥

== Attributes ==
BOD: 3
AGI: 5
REA: 1 (2)
STR: 2
CHA: 9
INT: 3
LOG: 2
WIL: 2
EDG: 1
MAG: 8

== Derived Attributes ==
Essence:      6
Initiative:      4 (5) + 2d6
Astral Initiative:      6 + 3d6
Physical Damage Track:   10
Stun Damage Track:   9

== Limits ==
Physical:   3
Mental:   3
Social:   12
Astral:   12

== Active Skills ==
Engineering Group   1      
Aeronautics Mechanic   1;   Pool - 3
Automotive Mechanic   1;   Pool - 3
Industrial Mechanic   1;   Pool - 3
Nautical Mechanic   1;   Pool - 3
         
Outdoors Group   1      
Navigation   1;   Pool - 4
Survival   1;   Pool - 3
Tracking   1;   Pool - 4
         
Electronics Group   1      
Computer   1;   Pool - 3
Hardware   1;   Pool - 3
Software   1;   Pool - 3
         
Biotech Group   1      
Biotechnology   1;   Pool - 3
Cybertechnology   1;   Pool - 3
First Aid   1;   Pool - 3
Medicine   1;   Pool - 3
         
Influence Group   6      
Etiquette   6;   Pool - 16
Leadership   6;   Pool - 16
Negotiation   6;   Pool - 16
         
Arcana   2;   Pool - 4
Assensing   1;   Pool - 4
Astral Combat   1;   Pool - 3
Automatics   4;   Pool - 9
Con (Seduction)   6;   Pool - 18 (20)
Gymnastics   3;   Pool - 8
Impersonation   6;   Pool - 16
Intimidation   2;   Pool - 11
Locksmith   2;   Pool - 7
Perception   4;   Pool - 7
Performance   1;   Pool - 11
Pilot Ground Craft   4;   Pool - 7
Sneaking   4;   Pool - 9
Spellcasting   1;   Pool - 3
Unarmed Combat   4;   Pool - 9

== Qualities ==
Adept
Bilingual
Dead Emotion (Anger)
Distinctive Style (Glamour)
Exceptional Attribute
Faceless
Glamour
In Debt X
Low-Light Vision
Mentor Spirit (Raven)
Poor Self Control (Compulsive I, Personal)
Symbiosis

== Initiations ==
1 (Ash Union) - Power Point
2 (Ash Union) - Power Point

== Powers ==
Adept Spel (Trid Phantasm)
Astral Perception
Authoritative Tone (1)
Combat Sense (1)
Commanding Voice
Facial Sculpt (1)
Hang Time (1)
Improved Reflexes (1)
Keratin Control
Killing Hands
Melanin Control
Nerve Strike
Nimble Fingers (1)
Traceless Walk
Ventriloquism
Voice Control (1)
Wall Running
Rapid Draw

== Lifestyles ==
Cozy Apartment  1 months

== Armor ==
Vashon Island, Steampunk
Custom Fit
YNT Softweave
Nonconductivity (5)
Thermal Damping (3)
Autopicker (6)
Miniwelder
Climbing Gear
Survival Kit


== Weapons ==
Remington Suppressor
   Pool: 11   Accuracy: 8   DV: 7P   AP: -1   RC: 2
Unarmed Attack
   Pool: 9   Accuracy: 3   DV: 2P   AP: -  (Nerve Strike!)

== Commlink ==
Pulse Wave (DR 6)
Aztec Fly
Black Panther
Tube of Epoxy
Ultra-Glide Industrial Lubricant
Subvocal Mic
Tag Eraser
Glasses (stuffed)
Earbuds (stuffed)

== Gear ==
Fake SIN Rating 4 + Licenses

== Vehicles ==
Suzuki Mirage (Racing Bike)

Hobbes

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« Reply #1 on: <02-23-17/2316:17> »
You likely do not have a Magic of 8.  Initiation increases your Max magic you'd still have to pay 40 Karma to increase your Magic from 7 to 8.  Unless you've got more than normal starting Karma. 

Skills A, almost always a trap.  Stats A; Magic B; Skills C; Meta D; Resources E works out pretty well for Adepts most of the time.  Basically all of those skill pools you have at 3 and 4 dice are very scary to use due to glitches / Critical Glitches and your 1 Edge. 

In Debt X will likely get you dead.  Unless your GM is throwing considerably more than normal nuyen at you. 

You can sleep in whatever Lifestyle you can afford. 

Contacts, if you're playing Missions games I'd recommend picking a few of these guys: 
 http://cdn.shadowruntabletop.com/wp-content/uploads/Downloads/SRM%20Season%205%20Contacts.pdf?d131f9

Knowledge skills are RP choices more than mechanical.  If you're stuck flip through the Archetypes in the book, or look at the suggestions in the book.

Faceless and Distinctive Style is an interesting combo, I'm not sure most GMs would let that slide as one pretty much cancels out the other.

duskflights

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« Reply #2 on: <02-24-17/0916:56> »
Thanks!  Some of your comments are awesome, and some I don't really understand.  Would you please help me work through them so I can learn?

As an aside, I'm entirely happy to run through a couple campaigns with a less-than-optimal characters, so I can get a visceral sense of what is helpful and what is pretty much irrelevant.  Our GM usually lets deaths slide for the first few sessions of a new system - so long as it wasn't poor planning/decision-making (or, heaven forbid, deliberate).

Why wouldn't I be able to have Magic 8?  Starting at 2 with Magic D, and at Priority B, Dryads have 6 Special Attribute points.  2+6=8.  I'm assuming it's like Exceptional Attribute, where I can go back and pump it up, like the example in the book.  The only mention I've seen against that is for Skill Groups which are explicitly called out as being entirely incompatible with normal Skill points, even if Karma breaks them up.

You mention that Skills A is a trap, which is something I've heard before, though I've also heard that there are some builds that don't care.  However, I'm not sure how to distribute the skill points to keep my socials skills up to par without completely sacrificing everything else.  Any thoughts?

Also, this is more for everyone else - as an Adept, why would I EVER pick more than Magic D?  For Adepts, Magic gives, what, a couple Magic points and a single skill at 2 or 4?  Ha, up Meta and Skills and get an extra magic point and triple the skills (and some Skill groups while you're at it!).  Seems to me like anything more than Magic D is the trap.  (For mages and technos who get spells and complex forms, it's certainly more worth it!)

How will In Debt get me killed?  GM has told us that the Missions he's read tend to hover somewhere around 10k¥  and 6 Karma as a reward, and I can't imagine taking a month of downtime between runs.  So I' should easily be able to make the 7.5k payments, with some left over to put toward principle.  Not much fun to pay back - I should probably take a look at what gear I can live without.  Even so, 4 Physical boxes of damage is bad, but going to get me killed?  Really?

Whatever I can afford - that sounds like a no.  Really I was looking for RP flavor instead of any mechanical benefit (other than possibly avoiding the "sleeping in a ditch" Fatigue damage that Run Faster introduces - not sure if normal Missions does that, but my GM won't be).  I think I'll be able to get away with it at our table, but I'll keep that in mind - or try to slip it past the GM during play :P.

I'll definitely be picking Lothan the Wise, so I can be part of the Ash Union.  Which other ones would be useful?  What types of contacts would be useful in a non-Missions campaign?

Distinctive Style is the drawback of Glamour, which is part of Dryad.  But to my understanding, the problem with Distinctive Style isn't with Faceless.  I think Distinctive Style is insanely easy to get around, requiring GM input to keep relevant even without Faceless.  I have all the "change my appearance" Powers I can find, but even without that, with the synthskin mask in Cutting Aces, or even just a full-face respirator on the streets, anyone trying to remember me is actually remembering some other guy or a faceless drone.  How would Distinctive Style be ruled then?
« Last Edit: <02-24-17/0919:10> by duskflights »

Hobbes

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« Reply #3 on: <02-24-17/1053:08> »
Unless Dryads are different your Max Magic is 6.  Exceptional Attribute gets you to a Max of 7, you spend your SAPs and get Magic to 7.  Spending Karma comes after you've spent all your special attribute points.  Chummer doesn't enforce the char gen steps.  If your GM doesn't care, carry on, but be aware it's a table thing.

Skills A on this build is a trap.  You can get better dice pools by defaulting from a high attribute.  You've literally got  18 skills that, as a player, I wouldn't ever roll because of the probability of glitches.  YMMV.  Just, keep in mind a 5 in a Stat means you've got 4 dice in all the skills associated with that Stat. 

Magic B is easy, gets you your 6 Magic and a couple skill points.  If you want to flip Magic and Meta go ahead but a social adept on Skills C gets a little tight.  With an Adept Elf either Meta or Magic needs to be a B or higher to get to 6 Magic.  If you were a combat Adept and not tight on skills, I'd say Magic D, Meta B and get the additional Edge.  Social character needs more skill points.  Throw 'em into Chummer and fiddle, if you don't like it, try some other Array.  Keep in mind high attributes increase your limits, increase your defense and soak pools ( you've got 6 dice for defense tests, and one edge, combat will be very bad for this character)  and let you have decent dice pools even with little skill point investment.

In Debit X, in a home game you don't know how much down time you'll have.  Initiation base time is one month so if anyone in the team (yourself included) Initiates you're in trouble.  If the Samie decides to increase a stat and get some new 'ware, that'll chew up a month.  Group Skills take weeks to train as well.  A month of down time isn't much for some characters.

Lifestyle options are in the books.  If you want nice things, buy them, it really is just that easy.

Contacts, get a Fixer (Simon or Sara) and Lothan, and then the rest are mostly RP choices.  Goober for gear and fixing, Nick for a police contact, Becky99 for a Street contact....

Faceless = always disguised, Distinctive Style means always recognizable.  Those two things conflict.  If your GM is okay with it, carry on.



duskflights

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« Reply #4 on: <02-25-17/2144:18> »
Our GM is ruling Magic like this, so thanks for the heads-up re: other tables. 

...But I don’t really understand it: do you not spend karma to buy Qualities?  I don't see anywhere that the rulebook or the Missions FAQ says you can't buy Initiation and then raise Magic with Special Attribute points.  The order of the other steps are explicitly ignored in the examples several times over, so without a callout like Skill Groups, I don't see any rules support for that interpretation.  Obviously, I couldn’t try to raise my Magic with Karma and then put points back into it (which I believe it mentions), but the Karma isn’t being spent on Magic.

Help me understand: if you wouldn’t roll a skill with 4 dice, why is getting a 5 in the linked attribute and then defaulting okay?

Beyond that, what skills would help me most for this concept?  Are there any social skills I’ve invested heavily in that aren’t that important?  Are there any key non-combat skills I’m missing, especially for infiltration?  I know may would prefer a higher combat pool, but my idea of Hugin’s response to combat is to RUN LIKE A BI – Hugin doesn’t really like combat, you see.  That’s why diplomacy and intrigue are specced so heavily – Hugin believes any situation can be talked out of (…though explosives can help. Sometimes).

For a home game, I doubt that anyone will be taking months or weeks of downtime near creation - Initiating takes 13 Karma at minimum, Attributes take at the very least 10, and ‘Ware is generally more expensive than the 5k¥ start + 10k¥ from the first run.  So it should be easy to hoard enough to float for a month or two, if needed.  Besides, if one person is out for a month, you’d best believe Hugin going to make money on the side, with that loan shark looming large!  However, I am looking at reducing the level of In Debt, and perhaps taking something else interesting in its place.

Yes, I could buy a lifestyle for Hugin with Nuyen....or I could give Hugin’s wallet a break and effectively practice the world's oldest profession in order to sleep in a nice bed. (What is this “shame” you speak of? :3)  Hugin's happy to make breakfast - and even organize their kitchen! (That's what the compulsion is for.)

These contacts all look very interesting, and I can think of several uses for them, especially with the hints from Missions our GM has dropped.  But please let me rephrase my contact question: I was wondering about homebrew or generic system campaigns.  What kinds of contacts do people actually use?  What ones tend to be more important, and which ones are really nice to increase quality-of-life, but that only people with lots of Contact points (like Hugin with 27) should really consider picking up?

While I could drop Faceless, DS is still part of the Dryad metatype, as a drawback to Glamour.  I'll probably never have Hugin bare-faced anyway, if I can help it.  With keratin control, melanin control, and facial sculpt all lasting for (7 or) 8 hours and taking only a minute to come into effect, Hugin will likely be changing faces more often than clothing.  (Which does mean Faceless could actually get some use when inside corps that check people for active magical effects.)

So, as I see it, the issue seems to be with Distinctive Style, not with Faceless.  How would you rule Distinctive style works with disguising yourself? 

ZeldaBravo

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« Reply #5 on: <02-26-17/0544:10> »
How would you rule Distinctive style works with disguising yourself? 

People will have an easy time recalling you, but not "THE" you, only what or who you were disguised as?  ???
*I have problems with clarifying my point in English, so sometimes I might sound stupid or rude.*

Glyph

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« Reply #6 on: <02-26-17/0609:53> »
For a character with impersonation: 6 and several disguise-enhancing adept powers, the absence of the disguise skill is a startling omission.  But my honest opinion is: either drop the glamour (be a normal elf instead of a dryad), or drop the master of disguise schtick.  The problem with glamour isn't people tracking you down by your face - it is that it is a paranormal effect that is always "on", meaning that whether you are dressed like the janitor, dressed like a guard, or a dead ringer for one of the office workers, you will still radiate supernatural grace and charm, turning people's heads and attracting attention.

Skills: like mages, faces have a glut of skills that can be drastically pared down if needed.  If you have high con and negotiation, and a minimal investment in etiquette and intimidation, you have the essentials.  You can make a face with E: skills if you only get those essentials and some basic every-runner skills.  Adding anything to basic face, though - entertainer, infiltration, etc. - will make your required skill priority jump up to C or higher.

Contacts: contacts can either give you information, buy or sell things to/from you, or provide services.  The contacts that give you the most bang for your buck are middle men like fixers, who can provide a wide mix of the three, usually by hooking you up with someone else.  Their downside is that you have to pay them their cut in addition to the normal cost.  Faces, with their high Charisma, can afford to get some more direct contacts, such as fake ID manufacturers, coyotes (who can get you into or out of Seattle), chop shop operators (to get rid of stolen vehicles or get a use-and-lose getaway vehicle), etc.

Pap Renvela

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« Reply #7 on: <02-26-17/0742:38> »
Looks like your GM is running Missions but is allowing initiation which isn't Missions legal- well, to each his own.

Warning...Background Count is prevalent.
So powers like Authoritative tone 1 will most likely have to be turned off because the Background Count will be a bigger negative than the plus effect of the power.

I second the you can't use Special points to raise MR after initiating in the Karma phase of chargen.
But if your GM buys it, more power to you.

You would be better off with Skills C and Attributes A than the other way around.

Mission scenarios don't pay huge, so yeah, In Debt X is just going to kill you.


Hobbes

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« Reply #8 on: <02-26-17/0809:04> »
Looks like your GM is running Missions but is allowing initiation which isn't Missions legal- well, to each his own.

Warning...Background Count is prevalent.
So powers like Authoritative tone 1 will most likely have to be turned off because the Background Count will be a bigger negative than the plus effect of the power.

I second the you can't use Special points to raise MR after initiating in the Karma phase of chargen.
But if your GM buys it, more power to you.

You would be better off with Skills C and Attributes A than the other way around.

Mission scenarios don't pay huge, so yeah, In Debt X is just going to kill you.

Presuming you mean Missions doesn't allow initiation at chargen, because Missions does allow initiation.  All the other points I agree with. 

duskflights

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« Reply #9 on: <02-26-17/1122:50> »
People will have an easy time recalling you, but not "THE" you, only what or who you were disguised as?  ???
That's about how I read it, please see below.

For a character with impersonation: 6 and several disguise-enhancing adept powers, the absence of the disguise skill is a startling omission.
Yyyyeeep, I missed that.  Thanks for the heads up!  I'll have to move some points around.

The problem with glamour isn't people tracking you down by your face - it is that it is a paranormal effect that is always "on" [...]
And I'm fine with that.  The people Hugin interacts with will remember a charming clerk, maintenance worker, or a security member who then disappears; life is, admittedly, a tad difficult while their attention is focused on Hugin, but that's life and Hugin enjoys the challenge.  There's nothing to link that interaction with Hugin's face, which is the plan.  Were it a separate Quality, I think Shadowrun's ethos would demand the GM go, "A disadvantage that isn't a disadvantage is worth no points."  But again, it's stapled to the race, and saying that an entire metatype is incapable of disguising themselves when the mechanics (and common sense) clearly exist to do so is bizarre.  Especially as Dryads have the option of simply disguising themselves as a different Dryad.

Also thanks for the Contacts ideas!

Looks like your GM is running Missions but is [...]
Missions are a quick access to balanced and vetted published runs.  They're interesting and fun.  Since we're using them as a springboard into Shadowrun as a system (and hopefully a homebrew campaign), our GM doesn't care to limit our choices past what he believes is reasonable.  Note that we are very aware these are not Missions-legal characters and won't be creating any documentation for them, just using the published runs at home.  My questions here are for if I decide to create a Missions character for some of the conventions I attend.

I second the you can't use Special points to raise MR after initiating in the Karma phase of chargen.
That's cute, but, as you have elected to ignore the two requests for documentation supporting this interpretation in this thread, I'm likewise ignoring your opinion.  So unless you can point me to a book/pdf and page number, please move along.

Mission scenarios don't pay huge, so yeah, In Debt X is just going to kill you.
Missions seem to pay just fine - ~10k¥ per run, or so I've been told...and I have explained my reasoning further up I this thread.  If you'd like to critique my analysis, I would love to hear from someone with experience.  But if you're just going to tell me I'm wrong without explanation - again, please move along.

Pap Renvela

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« Reply #10 on: <02-26-17/1535:59> »
Looks like your GM is running Missions but is allowing initiation which isn't Missions legal- well, to each his own.

Warning...Background Count is prevalent.
So powers like Authoritative tone 1 will most likely have to be turned off because the Background Count will be a bigger negative than the plus effect of the power.

I second the you can't use Special points to raise MR after initiating in the Karma phase of chargen.
But if your GM buys it, more power to you.

You would be better off with Skills C and Attributes A than the other way around.

Mission scenarios don't pay huge, so yeah, In Debt X is just going to kill you.

Presuming you mean Missions doesn't allow initiation at chargen, because Missions does allow initiation.  All the other points I agree with.

Yes, I meant during chargen.

Pap Renvela

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« Reply #11 on: <02-26-17/1550:55> »
@ duskflights

to each his own brother, to each his own

peace out

Tarislar

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« Reply #12 on: <02-26-17/1618:09> »
Decent concept for sure, but IMHO, your pushing it a bit too far to the extreme & as others have said, breaking some of the rules.

1.  You can't have Magic-8 at Chargen.

2.  Pretty sure initiation is not allowed at Chargen.  It isn't listed in the spending extra karma section.  And frankly, its something a character should work for.  Also, even if the GM allowed it, the spending karma part is FINAL TOUCHES the last step of Chargen, and is done AFTER the Special Points are allocated, not before. 

3.  I'd downgrade this to regular Elf w/ 8 Charisma & better stats.  The downsides of Dryad tree stuff turns me off on them, 1 die for charisma isn't worth it.

4.  Will your GM allow you to use Sum-2-10?  (If so I might consider balancing Attributes & Skills at 3 each, otherwise swap them as below)


A- Attributes  =   B-3, A-6, R-5(7), S-1, W-3, L-4, I-5, C-8
B- Elf-6 = Magic-6, Edge-3
C- Skills  (28/2G)
D- Adept
E- Cash - $6000


Con/Seduction = 6/+2
Etiquette/Specialized = 6+2
Firearm of Some Type / 6+2
Negotiation/Barter  =  6/+2
Group/Stealth = 2
Arcana-1
Assensing-1
Impersonation-1
Pilot Groundcraft-1


Positive Qualities:  (20)
Friends in High Places  (32 Points = 10/5 + 12/5)
Jack of All Trades
Mentor Spirit - Raven (Deception)
Trust Fund - Medium

Negative Qualities:  (25 of your choice or options below)
Allergy or Paranoia - Minor/Uncommon - (5)
Code of Honor - Women & Children - (15)
SINner - National - (5)

Spend Karma - 30
8 - Bond Qi Foci (Force-4)
4 - Contacts +4 = 28 Total Points  (6/1-Fixer/Johnson, 5/2-Other, 4/3-Other, 1/6-Fence)
4- Skills  (Impersonation, Assensing, Arcana, Pilot-Groundcraft)  All at L1
Buy Cash - (15K) = $30000 + $6000 = $36K Spending Cash  (+Starting Cash Medium + $500)

$34,000 = $12K for the Focus,  $7500 Fake SIN-3,  $8500-Mirage,  $500 Disguise Kit + $5,500 Gear/Suit/Weapons

Power Points-6
0.25 - Agility Boost-1
0.0 - Astral Perception  (Qi-Focus)
2.0 - Authoritative Tone-4
0.5 - Combat Reflexes
0.25 - Facial Sculpting-1
2.5 - Improved Reflexes-2
0.5 - Melanin Control
0.0 - Traceless Step (Mentor Spirit)
0.0 - Voice Control-1  (Mentor Spirit)


Something like that will get you most of what you want w/o a lot of the questionable stuff, and your able to participate when the firefight that you can't talk your way out of inevitably happens.

duskflights

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« Reply #13 on: <02-26-17/2253:43> »
2.  Pretty sure initiation is not allowed at Chargen.  It isn't listed in the spending extra karma section.  And frankly, its something a character should work for.  Also, even if the GM allowed it, the spending karma part is FINAL TOUCHES the last step of Chargen, and is done AFTER the Special Points are allocated, not before. 
For the fourth time, I don't give a FUCK about what most people THINK the rules are.  Opinions of people who aren't developers are useless without a citation.  Can we just agree to disagree until someone finds some actual text support?  Please?

Regarding the chargen order, I've mentioned that (but only once, so I'm much less salty about it :P).  I didn't find anywhere in the rules where it explicitly says you must do everything in the order presented.  In fact, literally the first thing the examples do is skip straight to Step 4 and choose some Qualities. 

Ah, wait, I found a citation.  This one is not for initiation, but it specifically mentions that the steps are not set in stone.
Quote
Even if [Exceptional Attribute or Lucky] is purchased, the player must still spend the attribute points/Karma to raise the attribute to that new limit.
-Shadowrun Core Rulebook, page 66

Explicitly says that you can save a point until Step 4, buy a feature with Karma, and then backtrack to Step 2 to use it.  In fact, the only mention of something that explicitly can't do that is with Skills, where you can't spend group points and normal skill points on the same thing. 

The extra Karma spending section mentions that the table exists to show additional restrictions on Karma purchases at chargen.  It does not say the table is an exhaustive list of what karma may be spent on.

No, Priority is confirmed.  Our GM is starting our intro to the system with the "As It's Meant To Be Played" schtick.  Sum-To-Ten may be allowed in the future, when we all have a better handle on what the extra choices can actually get us that's worth it.  There are a couple extra rules he's enforcing, but mostly for quality of life (no real SINs as none of us understand mechanically why they're bad, and nothing like Revels in Murder - we're coming off a long Pathfinder kick, so he wants to strongly emphasize that in Shadowrun, the path of the Murder-Hobo is generally a quick trip to a shallow grave).

I'm looking at the build you suggested - and you're the first one to post a build, so thank you very, very much for that.  To make sure I understand the Contact portion, is your first number Connections?  Are there rules on what kind/how many items a Fence can move with low Connections?  Or do they just take anything you want off your hands?

I think I have a sense of what you believe is important in the game, and again, I'd like to thank you for posting details of how you would allocate point with a different Priority spread.  I really, really appreciate it.

That said, there are some things that jump out at me..  Would you mind helping me understand why you made these choices?  Are these skills just not used that often?  Do the concepts not come up in play? 

  • Zero points in Perception is strongly correlated with a quick death in most RPGs I've played.  As an infiltrator, Hugin will be surrounded by potential hostiles; it'd be nice to be able to see the ambushes coming.
  • 2 points for Disguise and 1 point for Impersonation - is that really enough for someone who is designed to be a chameleon?
  • Strength 1 and no points in Running means Hugin can't run from fights.  That seems bad for Hugin...unless Sprinting isn't used all that often?
  • There are 6(+S) points in a weapons skill; Hugin is not much a fan of fighting, so I'll probably drop that by a couple points and use Automatics to mostly lay down suppressive fire.  While running.
  • Hugin 2.0 has no Keratin Control, Commanding Voice, Nerve Strike, Wall Running, or Hang Time.  Loss of the first two is unacceptable: Hugin needs to be able to change hair as well as face and skin - and getting rid of essentially free suggestion as the D&D spell?  Has it burned you in the past?  Does your GM hate fun? :3  Nerve Strike I get, with my low pools - I'll keep it if I can find points to spare.  (The last two are part of the plans I have for how to get out of combat, which I never shared, silly me.  But being able to go over a wall or out a window at a moment's notice seems very strong!)
  • Friends in High Places is banned in our game; but besides that, who would the contacts be?  You've tried to set up a contact with Connections 12, which essentially means someone on the Ares Board of Directors is my bestie......but there's no further explanation?  I feel that should be a major, defining point of a character.  Why the hell would Hugin have such a connection, yet not milk it for all it's worth for the rest of his life with his considerable social skills?  I think that's a question that would need to get answered to make the character playable (and one my GM would definitely ask).

I do really like the idea of tying Astral perception to a Focus.  I think I'll borrow that.  It's pretty convenient.

Tarislar

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« Reply #14 on: <02-27-17/0016:50> »
2.  Pretty sure initiation is not allowed at Chargen.  It isn't listed in the spending extra karma section.  And frankly, its something a character should work for.  Also, even if the GM allowed it, the spending karma part is FINAL TOUCHES the last step of Chargen, and is done AFTER the Special Points are allocated, not before. 
For the fourth time, I don't give a FUCK about what most people THINK the rules are.  Opinions of people who aren't developers are useless without a citation.  Can we just agree to disagree until someone finds some actual text support?  Please?

1.  Lets turn in around.  Can you show me where you CAN initiate at Chargen?
2.  I gave I gave you text above.  In Step-7 it tells you what you are allowed to do with your remaining Karma.
Its even called ADDITIONAL PURCHASES & RESTRICTIONS & no where in there is Initiation/Sublimation listed.

CRB P.98
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Any remaining Karma can now be invested in smoothing out any rough edges, picking up or improving skills, buying additional spells, acquiring bound spirits, bonding foci to be used at the start of the game, purchasing contacts, etc.
Refer to the Additional Purchases and Restrictions table to note any special restrictions on purchasing items with Karma.


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Regarding the chargen order, I've mentioned that (but only once, so I'm much less salty about it :P).  I didn't find anywhere in the rules where it explicitly says you must do everything in the order presented.  In fact, literally the first thing the examples do is skip straight to Step 4 and choose  some Qualities.
You can make that argument for Attributes v/s Skills v/s Qualities...... But step 7 (spending karma) is called Finishing Touches & is implied to be done last. 
Otherwise you can go spend karma buying Skills/Attributes to Level-1/2 & then add your Attribute Points after spending the Karma which is completely not how its intended to work.


Quote
I'm looking at the build you suggested - and you're the first one to post a build, so thank you very, very much for that.  To make sure I understand the Contact portion, is your first number Connections?  Are there rules on what kind/how many items a Fence can move with low Connections?  Or do they just take anything you want off your hands?
Yes, Connection/Loyalty.     Missions defaults to 5% x Loyalty for Fencing, so if using those rules it gets you 30% from recovered goods.


Quote
Would you mind helping me understand why you made these choices?  Are these skills just not used that often?  Do the concepts not come up in play? 

  • Zero points in Perception is strongly correlated with a quick death in most RPGs I've played.  As an infiltrator, Hugin will be surrounded by potential hostiles; it'd be nice to be able to see the ambushes coming.
  • 2 points for Disguise and 1 point for Impersonation - is that really enough for someone who is designed to be a chameleon?
  • Strength 1 and no points in Running means Hugin can't run from fights.  That seems bad for Hugin...unless Sprinting isn't used all that often?
  • There are 6(+S) points in a weapons skill; Hugin is not much a fan of fighting, so I'll probably drop that by a couple points and use Automatics to mostly lay down suppressive fire.  While running.
  • Hugin 2.0 has no Keratin Control, Commanding Voice, Nerve Strike, Wall Running, or Hang Time.  Loss of the first two is unacceptable: Hugin needs to be able to change hair as well as face and skin - and getting rid of essentially free suggestion as the D&D spell?  Has it burned you in the past?  Does your GM hate fun? :3  Nerve Strike I get, with my low pools - I'll keep it if I can find points to spare.  (The last two are part of the plans I have for how to get out of combat, which I never shared, silly me.  But being able to go over a wall or out a window at a moment's notice seems very strong!)
  • Friends in High Places is banned in our game; but besides that, who would the contacts be?  You've tried to set up a contact with Connections 12, which essentially means someone on the Ares Board of Directors is my bestie......but there's no further explanation?  I feel that should be a major, defining point of a character.  Why the hell would Hugin have such a connection, yet not milk it for all it's worth for the rest of his life with his considerable social skills?  I think that's a question that would need to get answered to make the character playable (and one my GM would definitely ask).

Perception was an oversight,  I didn't realize I missed it.  Dang.
Replace the Firearms skill with Perception as you really don't HAVE to have a gun with those social skills.
  Or,  Drop the specializations & split the Firearm & Perception at 5 Each, or possibly keep them 6 & lower Etiquette to 4.
Melanin Control can change your hair color, Keratin is too slow to work in a pinch & a disguise kit would be better.
Don't run, talk your way out of it, or start shooting & dodge a lot.  Raise it to 2 w/ 10 Karma after a few runs.
  Or Invest 1/4 point in Str-Boost-1 if you really want to boost Run skill dice.
Disguise & Impersonation are linked to solid attributes & your not going to be great at everything.
  You also have several Adept Abilities for bonus dice & ability to blend.  Finally, buy more w/ Karma as you run.
FiHP:  I leave it to you to create why he knows them, perhaps they went to the same boarding school as children.
  Regardless, the rules for FiHP points out that abusing them by calling them all the time like your other contacts will have negative effects.
  Essentially its an 8-Karma Get out of Jail Free card to be used if all other options have failed & you REALLY need some help.
  I'd replace it with Blandness to blend into crowds easily.