Most of the stats for melee weapons are based on size, with no regard to quality (I am NOT going there; you can if you want). For instance, a Katana has the same DV as a Monofilament Sword or a regular sword. The only difference between the three is that a normal sword does not have AP, whereas the Katana and MS have a -1 AP.I don't know about that. I mean the words you speak are true. the best blades aren't cheap. I would agree they would be worth alot more Nuyen, But I found this for $125:
House Rule? I'd say that an extremely good quality melee weapon (i.e. Tamahagane katanas) would probably get additional modifiers to AP. Of course, I'd probably also make it that those weapons were at least 10x the price of a normal version; based on the fact that you can get normal, functioning katana (http://www.amazon.com/ITO-Katana-Folded-Lightning-Damascus/dp/B001F3FVDC) for about $150, but a Takemoto hand-forged Tamahegane Katana (http://www.swordnarmory.com/Takemoto-Authentic-Hand-Forged-Tamahagane-Sword-p/ss-621.htm) goes for over $5,000.
Don't forget that in Shadowrun, "the old ways" might have benefits to them magically. It's easier for an Adept to Attune with something less technologically advanced, for instance, or for a Mage to use Analyze Device. I'd say it's more in keeping with some magical Traditions to have an old-style, hand-made, weapon for a Focus than for it to be an all polymer, laser-etched, yadda yadda yadda high tech folding knife.Yes but Damascus steel is an old forging method! And yes there is even a clause in some spells I know where you are not allowed to even haggle the price of a Material component. That causes the spell to fail and the unnamed ones come a eat your soul and your village's souls as well! :P
It all comes down to flavor...but in a world with magic, sometimes that "flavor" can be pretty strong.
Don't forget that in Shadowrun, "the old ways" might have benefits to them magically. It's easier for an Adept to Attune with something less technologically advanced, for instance, or for a Mage to use Analyze Device. I'd say it's more in keeping with some magical Traditions to have an old-style, hand-made, weapon for a Focus than for it to be an all polymer, laser-etched, yadda yadda yadda high tech folding knife.Yes but Damascus steel is an old forging method! And yes there is even a clause in some spells I know where you are not allowed to even haggle the price of a Material component. That causes the spell to fail and the unnamed ones come a eat your soul and your village's souls as well! :P
It all comes down to flavor...but in a world with magic, sometimes that "flavor" can be pretty strong.
Honestly, with modern technology available, I don't think that hand-crafted items are better than modern replacements. A katana, made from modern (2070) materials will probably as good as katanas will ever be without becoming a lightsaber or vibro blade. Nostalgia, etc. will still make hand-crafted items expensive and wanted, but I wouldn't give them a bonus to AP.Actually, that's not entirely true.
Don't forget that in Shadowrun, "the old ways" might have benefits to them magically. It's easier for an Adept to Attune with something less technologically advanced, for instance, or for a Mage to use Analyze Device. I'd say it's more in keeping with some magical Traditions to have an old-style, hand-made, weapon for a Focus than for it to be an all polymer, laser-etched, yadda yadda yadda high tech folding knife.
It all comes down to flavor...but in a world with magic, sometimes that "flavor" can be pretty strong.
| Quality | AP Adj. | Cost | Description |
| Poor | +1 | 25% of Normal | Either it second-, third- or even fourth-hand used. It's seen a lot of time on the streets and it shows. But, hey, you get what you pay for. And what you paid for is a blunt, rusty blade. |
| Average | +0 | Normal | Straight from the store, still in it's wrapper. Love that new blade smell! |
| Mastercraft | -1 | 10x Normal | This was lovingly crafted by hand (or a really high-end fabricator). |
| Legendary | -2 | 100x Normal | Maybe by a master craftsmen, afficionados will recognize the maker's style upon examination. Only a few of these exist in the world. |
Well, the magical part is taken into account when an Awakened character bonds with the weapon (gaining the power of the weapon focus as bonus die on to-hit attacks).
I agree that if you pay for quality, you should get it. I think there should be 4 levels of quality:
Quality AP Adj. Cost Description Poor +1 25% of Normal Either it second-, third- or even fourth-hand used. It's seen a lot of time on the streets and it shows. But, hey, you get what you pay for. And what you paid for is a blunt, rusty blade. Average +0 Normal Straight from the store, still in it's wrapper. Love that new blade smell! Mastercraft -1 10x Normal This was lovingly crafted by hand (or a really high-end fabricator). Legendary -2 100x Normal Maybe by a master craftsmen, afficionados will recognize the maker's style upon examination. Only a few of these exist in the world.
We should get myth busters on this issue. Are machine folded blades as good as as hand crafted! It's a topic I wouldn't want to wager on. Specially since I am a Toolmaker/Machining Specialist.!
If Deadliest Warrior can be believed (the science maybe, the rest... *shrug*), they showed how the katana could cut through an entire pig corpse (and the one beneath it, and into the third - Around 7:30 (http://www.spike.com/full-episode/viking-vs-samurai/31558)). It does show how chain mail would stop the blade pretty well, of course...
I'd like to point out that a LOT of the "fancy mysterious" forging techniques developed in antiquity were to compensate for the quality of the alloys available in those eras.Not really true. Many of the techniques were structured to work the lesser alloys out of the metal, enhancing the perfection of the core metals. (Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_swordsmithing#Forging)).
I suspect that a modern alloy forged sword, even without the fancy secret techniques, will stand up to any of the ancient blades you might come across.
-karma
Well, the magical part is taken into account when an Awakened character bonds with the weapon (gaining the power of the weapon focus as bonus die on to-hit attacks).
I agree that if you pay for quality, you should get it. I think there should be 4 levels of quality:
Quality AP Adj. Cost Description Poor +1 25% of Normal Either it second-, third- or even fourth-hand used. It's seen a lot of time on the streets and it shows. But, hey, you get what you pay for. And what you paid for is a blunt, rusty blade. Average +0 Normal Straight from the store, still in it's wrapper. Love that new blade smell! Mastercraft -1 10x Normal This was lovingly crafted by hand (or a really high-end fabricator). Legendary -2 100x Normal Maybe by a master craftsmen, afficionados will recognize the maker's style upon examination. Only a few of these exist in the world.
You mean like the mono-filament swords with their blade edge one molecule wide? Those have the same statistics as a regular katana...But only take one hand. ;)
Er, how does what you said disagree with what I said?I'd like to point out that a LOT of the "fancy mysterious" forging techniques developed in antiquity were to compensate for the quality of the alloys available in those eras.Not really true. Many of the techniques were structured to work the lesser alloys out of the metal, enhancing the perfection of the core metals. (Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_swordsmithing#Forging)).
I suspect that a modern alloy forged sword, even without the fancy secret techniques, will stand up to any of the ancient blades you might come across.
You have a point there. Also, I just noticed that the description for the Monosword says it's a Broadsword with Monofilament wire strung along the edge of its blade. So, would a monofilament katana be a -2 AP? :PYou mean like the mono-filament swords with their blade edge one molecule wide? Those have the same statistics as a regular katana...But only take one hand. ;)
The fact of the matter is that melee weapons don't make alot of sense in shadowrun. The Katar has AP-2 and the bayonet has no AP. Nodachis, which are just long katanas, have AP-2 also, while spears, kris blades, and swords have none. It's just stupid and whoever designed it didn't really know much about the use of melee weapons. They based it on what they thought was cool. I mean... a monofilament sword would tear the drek out of a katana blade.Katars (or punching dagger) are more vicious to armor since it's a piercing weapon and not a slashing weapon like the katana/sword. And Nodaichis (and other large weapons) have more chance of cutting through armor since the have the longer blade. Think of it this way, take a loaf of bread and see how deep you can slice into with one stroke of a steak knife (4" blade) versus one stroke of a 12" chef's knife.
>>>>>[Don't buy the hype, kiddies. Remember, this ain't a real monomolecular line we're talking about here. Sure, it may be monofilament, but so what? My sneaker lace is monofilament, too, but you don't see me lopping any limbs off with that!]<<<<<
-- Hermes <08:17:30/11-28-50>
Those same metal alloys are now also available to the master craftsman. Folding is proven to be stronger than a cast/pressed blade. I do agree that there are machines that would be able to created a forged/folded blade, so it could be on the same level of a master craftsman.Er, how does what you said disagree with what I said?I'd like to point out that a LOT of the "fancy mysterious" forging techniques developed in antiquity were to compensate for the quality of the alloys available in those eras.Not really true. Many of the techniques were structured to work the lesser alloys out of the metal, enhancing the perfection of the core metals. (Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_swordsmithing#Forging)).
I suspect that a modern alloy forged sword, even without the fancy secret techniques, will stand up to any of the ancient blades you might come across.
They started out with lower quality metal alloys. The special forging techniques both helped to refine those alloys (mainly by adjusting carbon content), and created structural reinforcement due to the folding.
However, they simply did not have the kind smelting techniques we have today. A modern forged sword, even without folding techiques, is inherently going to have better metallurgical properties than the old steel. All that fancy folding to create specific ratios of metals and carbon just isn't needed these days, we can produce steel now that already has those properties to start with.
That's not even counting the modern metal alloys and treatments that have developed since then. Vanadium, titanium, tungsten, cobalt, magnesium, etc. - most of these things were unknown to steel alloying before the 1800s. There's heat treatments and hardening techniques developed in the last century that could fill textbooks.
Heck, I'll take a sword hammered out of a truck leaf-spring against a Damascus blade or katana.
-karma
Your explanation for Katars being -2 is that they are piercing? what about all the other piercing weapons with no AP? What about the spear? or the bayonet? both used two handed. What about the rapier, which was designed to enter the weak points of armor? It's not -2. I've wielded a katar and they are nothing special. Despite what you might think...punching motions with one hand are not stronger than thrusting a spear with two hands.I'm just giving out a possible explanation for the rules in the game world. Rules will almost NEVER imitate real life. You have to remember that the statistics of the weapons are created so they are balanced for game use. Otherwise, be prepared to have the damage codes of weapons go way up. A regular kitchen knife might have a DV of (Str+3)P if the game wasn't trying to create a more cinematic combat style.
You mean like the mono-filament swords with their blade edge one molecule wide? Those have the same statistics as a regular katana...
Those same metal alloys are now also available to the master craftsman. Folding is proven to be stronger than a cast/pressed blade. I do agree that there are machines that would be able to created a forged/folded blade, so it could be on the same level of a master craftsman.
You can see too the AP as a way to "modulate" the DV without giving a complete extra DV.
The ability to pierce armor and to cut something, physically speaking not very different.
1AP = 1/3 DV statisticly speaking.