[ZeroSum]

The problem with the role playing aspect is I suspect most people see the racism against them as a advantage not a disadvantage. The I get more screen time penalty isn’t really a penalty.

I definitely agree with that; it's not a penalty that can be quantified, but depends heavily on group composition and GM willingness to capitalize on it.

[Shadowhack]

This is a really good discussion. I'm going to count the racial qualities towards the six maximum in my game but I'm not going to charge the karma. I think that is a good balance until if we get a clarification from the powers that be, if that happens.

[Michael Chandra]

So seems like this is the only explanation we have on racial qualities and it's located in the next section instead which is why I did not find it before:

The Metatype Attributes table
provides the ranges of the attributes for each metatype
and the particular qualities certain metatypes
gain as a free bonus.

[ZeroSum]

So seems like this is the only explanation we have on racial qualities and it's located in the next section instead which is why I did not find it before:

The Metatype Attributes table
provides the ranges of the attributes for each metatype
and the particular qualities certain metatypes
gain as a free bonus.

Nice find; I totally missed that one, as did we all it seems. That clears that up.

[Xenon]

See, this was the reason I asked if there was any rules on the matter;

So seems like this is the only explanation we have on racial qualities and it's located in the next section instead which is why I did not find it before:

The Metatype Attributes table
provides the ranges of the attributes for each metatype
and the particular qualities certain metatypes
gain as a free bonus.

Also this,

SR6 p. 66 Step Four: Spend Customization Karma
The points are spent on skill or attribute advancement, as well as additional funds to get those last gear pieces you might have missed or an additional quality (though the limit of six qualities still applies).

Which I read as you don't spend Customization karma on your racial qualities and that they are free
...although, this can also be be read as if your racial qualities do count towards the limit of six qualities?

[ZeroSum]

Also this,

SR6 p. 66 Step Four: Spend Customization Karma
The points are spent on skill or attribute advancement, as well as additional funds to get those last gear pieces you might have missed or an additional quality (though the limit of six qualities still applies).

Which I read as you don't spend Customization karma on your racial qualities and that they are free
...although, this can also be be read as if your racial qualities do count towards the limit of six qualities?

I agree it's ambiguous.

I read that as "Racial Quality" is not the same as "Quality" in this context; when buying qualities with Karma, the limit of 6 still applies.

But since you can't buy Racial Qualities with Karma and they are in fact free, I would not consider them included in this paragraph to begin with and thus they should be exempt from the limit of 6 as well.

[Xenon]

The only reason why I don't think they will count towards max 6 qualities is because you don't select the positive qualities you receive as a result of your metatype (I don't agree with your above reasoning, but I still agree with your conclusion):

SR6 p. 66 Select Qualities
You can’t select more than six total qualities at character creation, and the net bonus Karma cannot be more than 20.

[ZeroSum]

That's fair, I think your argument makes sense and would also accept that line of reasoning.

[Shadowhack]

I will say this. Since appears from this thread that racial qualities do not count towards the six max; the gap between humans and other metatypes at character creation is a huge hole that needs to be patched up at some point. The few attributes metatypes have maxed below six do not make up for the qualities issue and the benefit of having 7 edge max isn't all that powerful when stacked against the free qualities, in my opinion anyway.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

I've said it elsewhere; I suppose it's time to say it again here.

The advantage to playing a human isn't that the racial maximum on edge is 7.  The advantage to playing a human is that your SAPs all go to edge.

Take any build where Metatype isn't A or B.  Got one? Switch one thing: if it's a human, make it a meta.  If it's a meta, make it a human. Observe what happens.  The advantages for metas vs humans is that simple.

[Michael Chandra]

I still disagree with that because you can make identical builds where the human doesn't have any advantages, but that's what my houserule is for.

[Xenon]

the gap between humans and other metatypes at character creation is a huge hole that needs to be patched up at some point.

Humans are at disadvantage, yes. But the gap is not 'huge'.

Compensating humans with 10 extra customization karma will be [more than] sufficient.

Or counting racial positive qualities towards the maximum six positive qualities.

Take any build where Metatype isn't A or B.  Got one? Switch one thing: if it's a human, make it a meta.  If it's a meta, make it a human. Observe what happens.  The advantages for metas vs humans is that simple.

I just made an Edge 5 mundane human with Exceptional Attribute (Agility) and Low Light vision (plus 4 other Positive Qualities as six is the max).

When I switched to Elf I still had 5 Edge (and I was also allowed to keep any combination of mental and physical attributes I could have chosen as human), but I now got both Low Light Vision and Exceptional Attribute for free (worth 6 + 12 karma). Not only that, I am now also allowed to spend the newly earned 20 karma on two additional positive qualities beyond what I was allowed to pick as human....

To be fair, as Human I also got a rank of Exceptional Attribute (Edge) that I might or might not get use for later in my career (post chargen). But then again, as Elf I instead got two 'ranks' of Exceptional Attribute (Charisma) so I am not sure the edge thing should be counted as an advantage in this case (also during encounters your total Edge is capped at 7 no matter if you go Human or Elf, which kinda diminish the value of having an Edge rating higher than 6).

[CigarSmoker]

@Xenon
p.71
Exceptional (Attribute)
Whether it’s being a powerhouse, taking a hit from a troll, holding your synthahol, ducking a fast right, holding that inside turn, selling coal in Newcastle, or making a cat look clumsy, you’re just naturally built to be better.
• Cost: 12 Karma
• Game Effect: Select a Physical or Mental attribute. The character’s attribute maximum (but not current rank) for the chosen attribute increases by 1 to a maximum of 10.
This quality can only be purchased once.

On a personal note i see you writing many absolute statements "this and that is like that because i think it is" have you mathed that out ? i dont think so because lets look at an Elf Shaman and a Human Shaman, the Elf is vastly superior with no extra cost and its so obvious you only need to look how much Karma the Elf has in his 8 Charisma compared to the 6 Charisma of the Human. (expecting them to be MinMAxing which is obvously what were talking about right ? else this is totally mood)

[markelphoenix]

My personal belief is that the intent is all of the following:

1) metatypes get their racial qualities for no karma
2) these racial qualities do not count against the limit of 6 qualities total
3) since they have a karma cost, anyone who doesn't get them for free may purchase them.  Yep, you can have elves with armored troll skin, humans with thermographic vision, and etc.  I blame SURGE.

Messing around with these assumptions would of course dis-incentivize metatypes compared to humans.  If that's your roll, then have at it!

Yeah...I can't think of a sane way to interpret the rules other than this.

[penllawen]

The advantage to playing a human isn't that the racial maximum on edge is 7.  The advantage to playing a human is that your Adjustment Points all go to Edge.

What? How is that an advantage?

Consider (say) priority D into Metatype. You get 4 adjustment points. You are choosing between human and elf. The elf gets higher racial maximums on two stats and a free quality. The human gets nothing.

Both characters are free to put all 4 adjustment points into Edge. Stat-wise, they end up at the same place. The elf can choose to put SAPs into charisma or agility instead, but they don't have to.

Why would anyone pick human, faced with this?