Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Shadowhack on <09-30-19/2304:01>
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I was always under the assumption that racial qualities are free and don't count toward karma points. Is this true or am I wrong?
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RAW doesn't actually state this either way. I cannot imagine that RAI is that you have to pay for them, though; they are included in your Priority pick.
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That is pretty much what I thought too. It would make playing a human a lot more attractive though. You would start with 50 points instead of whatever you had to start with as another metatype.
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Eh, that would nerf metahumans too unfairly since they'd be able to get far less qualities (a Troll would then be capped at 3!). I'm just houseruling 'humans get 5 extra karma to use in the quality phase, still capped at max 20 net karma so max 70 customization karma'.
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Metahumans that don't get their racial qualities for free are actually very balanced compared to Humans
Metathumans still have two or three attributes with higher maximum ratings
And they also still have the option to spend adjustment points on said two or three attributes
While Humans have a slightly higher racial edge attribute
But perhaps more importantly they also get to freely choose all their positive qualities
Does it actually say somewhere that metahumans are supposed to get their racial qualities for free...?
Metahumans that get their racial qualities for free are mechanically clearly superior to Humans
(to compensate we either need to house rule a benefit for humans or hose rule a penalty for metahumans)
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How is it balanced if you get extra gear costs that are only useful if you maximize your Strength or Body? What you're saying is nobody should ever pick Troll if they're not maximizing one of those. The exact opposite of what they meant to achieve with allowing metatypes at Priority E.
There is literally nothing supporting that racial qualities actually cost karma. So the question about where it says they're for free, is insincere, since it assumes an absence can only mean 1 thing. I can easily counter that with 'where does it say racial qualities are normal qualities and cost karma?'
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No need to be so hostile about it. It is a new edition and none of us really know the rules as intended, yet.
You seem to agree that metahumans are mechanically stronger than humans since you are prepared to house rule a compensation to humans in order to balance them out.
What I am saying is that from a game balance perspective it would be more balanced if the racial qualities are not free than if they are free (but the most balanced result is probably something in between, maybe that qualities are free but still count towards the max number of quality limit or even that humans are compensated in some other way as you are suggesting).
If metahumans get free qualities then they will have all the benefits and none of the drawbacks.
There is not really any mechanical reason to play a human over say... an elf.
While there are a lot of game mechanical reasons to play an elf over a human.
Where I come from, this is not balanced.
If they pay for their starting qualities (or if their starting qualities count towards the maximum limit)....
...then there are still reasons to play an elf over a human.
But there are also suddenly strong reasons to play a human over an elf.
This is more balanced than the alternative.
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There is literally nothing supporting that racial qualities actually cost karma. So the question about where it says they're for free, is insincere, since it assumes an absence can only mean 1 thing. I can easily counter that with 'where does it say racial qualities are normal qualities and cost karma?'
I agree with your interpretation, Michael.
However, the fact that the racial traits are called "qualities" and are listed with all the other qualities in the same list is a point in favor of "they cost Karma", I would think. Like, if those qualities had their costs listed as "X if not a dwarf, free if dwarf" or similar it would be much clearer. So to say that the question is insincere seems a bit strong to me.
I don't really care about the "balance" question one way or the other, but I do think that this is an area of "edition blindness". My suspicion is that racial traits were converted into qualities to streamline and unify the system and to make them available as purchases with Karma for people not of that race, but then no one realized this would raise the question of whether everyone had to pay for them.
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My personal belief is that the intent is all of the following:
1) metatypes get their racial qualities for no karma
2) these racial qualities do not count against the limit of 6 qualities total
3) since they have a karma cost, anyone who doesn't get them for free may purchase them. Yep, you can have elves with armored troll skin, humans with thermographic vision, and etc. I blame SURGE.
Messing around with these assumptions would of course dis-incentivize metatypes compared to humans. If that's your roll, then have at it! :D
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If metahumans get free qualities then they will have all the benefits and none of the drawbacks.
There is not really any mechanical reason to play a human over say... an elf.
While there are a lot of game mechanical reasons to play an elf over a human.
Where I come from, this is not balanced.
If they pay for their starting qualities (or if their starting qualities count towards the maximum limit)....
...then there are still reasons to play an elf over a human.
But there are also suddenly strong reasons to play a human over an elf.
This is more balanced than the alternative.
I definitely agree with this stance. It hadn't struck me until you broke it down like this that the human decker I created would objectively have been better off as a Dwarf, Elf, Ork, or Troll if racial qualities did not cost karma or did not count towards the quality limit, because he would be getting one or more free qualities as any one of those metatypes.
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No need to be so hostile about it. It is a new edition and none of us really know the rules as intended, yet.
Then don't pull that kind of stunt with 'well the rules don't say not X, do they?', because you know quite well it's a dirty debate trick. Arguing about game balance is a good thing, and as I already noted, your interpretation breaks the very easy-metatype-access thing that SR6 was meant to add, so that's a debate I'm willing to have. But going 'well there's no explanation on how racial qualities interact with karma and quality phases, so I can just make shit up' is a dirty argument, because then you're deliberately phrasing it in such a way that you don't want anyone to voice an opinion against you.
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If metahumans get free qualities then they will have all the benefits and none of the drawbacks.
There is not really any mechanical reason to play a human over say... an elf.
While there are a lot of game mechanical reasons to play an elf over a human.
Where I come from, this is not balanced.
If they pay for their starting qualities (or if their starting qualities count towards the maximum limit)....
...then there are still reasons to play an elf over a human.
But there are also suddenly strong reasons to play a human over an elf.
This is more balanced than the alternative.
I definitely agree with this stance. It hadn't struck me until you broke it down like this that the human decker I created would objectively have been better off as a Dwarf, Elf, Ork, or Troll if racial qualities did not cost karma or did not count towards the quality limit, because he would be getting one or more free qualities as any one of those metatypes.
As 2 of those metatypes there's extra costs, while under the other interpretation all metahumans face severe restrictions, especially those two. But yes, only 7-Edge humans actually get an explicit advantage out of being Human rather than Ork or Elf. The implicit advantage of being human in a mostly-racist world, is not worth it for everyone. Hence my suggested houserule to give humans a slight benefit to compensate.
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Then don't pull that kind of stunt with 'well the rules don't say not X, do they?'
In that case I apologize, this was not my intent.
It was meant an honest question (since I don't know all the rules in this edition by heart, as I do with 5th edition).
(and if I already knew the answer but for some reason still deliberately wanted to pull 'that kind of stunt' then I would probably have worded it as a statement rather than an open ended question)
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The implicit advantage of being human in a mostly-racist world, is not worth it for everyone. Hence my suggested houserule to give humans a slight benefit to compensate.
The roleplaying aspect should definitely not be discounted, but it's hard to argue a straight up mechanical advantage vs a potential lore-related consequence.
It's pretty clear that racial abilities costing karma or counting against the starting limit on qualities is not currently covered in the rule set. This will just have to be up to GM interpretation until the Errata team has time to chime in.
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The implicit advantage of being human in a mostly-racist world, is not worth it for everyone. Hence my suggested houserule to give humans a slight benefit to compensate.
The roleplaying aspect should definitely not be discounted, but it's hard to argue a straight up mechanical advantage vs a potential lore-related consequence.
It's pretty clear that racial abilities costing karma or counting against the starting limit on qualities is not currently covered in the rule set. This will just have to be up to GM interpretation until the Errata team has time to chime in.
The problem with the role playing aspect is I suspect most people see the racism against them as a advantage not a disadvantage. The I get more screen time penalty isn’t really a penalty.
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The problem with the role playing aspect is I suspect most people see the racism against them as a advantage not a disadvantage. The I get more screen time penalty isn’t really a penalty.
I definitely agree with that; it's not a penalty that can be quantified, but depends heavily on group composition and GM willingness to capitalize on it.
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This is a really good discussion. I'm going to count the racial qualities towards the six maximum in my game but I'm not going to charge the karma. I think that is a good balance until if we get a clarification from the powers that be, if that happens.
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So seems like this is the only explanation we have on racial qualities and it's located in the next section instead which is why I did not find it before:
The Metatype Attributes table
provides the ranges of the attributes for each metatype
and the particular qualities certain metatypes
gain as a free bonus.
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So seems like this is the only explanation we have on racial qualities and it's located in the next section instead which is why I did not find it before:The Metatype Attributes table
provides the ranges of the attributes for each metatype
and the particular qualities certain metatypes
gain as a free bonus.
Nice find; I totally missed that one, as did we all it seems. That clears that up.
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See, this was the reason I asked if there was any rules on the matter;
So seems like this is the only explanation we have on racial qualities and it's located in the next section instead which is why I did not find it before:The Metatype Attributes table
provides the ranges of the attributes for each metatype
and the particular qualities certain metatypes
gain as a free bonus.
Also this,
SR6 p. 66 Step Four: Spend Customization Karma
The points are spent on skill or attribute advancement, as well as additional funds to get those last gear pieces you might have missed or an additional quality (though the limit of six qualities still applies).
Which I read as you don't spend Customization karma on your racial qualities and that they are free
...although, this can also be be read as if your racial qualities do count towards the limit of six qualities?
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Also this,
SR6 p. 66 Step Four: Spend Customization Karma
The points are spent on skill or attribute advancement, as well as additional funds to get those last gear pieces you might have missed or an additional quality (though the limit of six qualities still applies).
Which I read as you don't spend Customization karma on your racial qualities and that they are free
...although, this can also be be read as if your racial qualities do count towards the limit of six qualities?
I agree it's ambiguous.
I read that as "Racial Quality" is not the same as "Quality" in this context; when buying qualities with Karma, the limit of 6 still applies.
But since you can't buy Racial Qualities with Karma and they are in fact free, I would not consider them included in this paragraph to begin with and thus they should be exempt from the limit of 6 as well.
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The only reason why I don't think they will count towards max 6 qualities is because you don't select the positive qualities you receive as a result of your metatype (I don't agree with your above reasoning, but I still agree with your conclusion):
SR6 p. 66 Select Qualities
You can’t select more than six total qualities at character creation, and the net bonus Karma cannot be more than 20.
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That's fair, I think your argument makes sense and would also accept that line of reasoning.
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I will say this. Since appears from this thread that racial qualities do not count towards the six max; the gap between humans and other metatypes at character creation is a huge hole that needs to be patched up at some point. The few attributes metatypes have maxed below six do not make up for the qualities issue and the benefit of having 7 edge max isn't all that powerful when stacked against the free qualities, in my opinion anyway.
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I've said it elsewhere; I suppose it's time to say it again here.
The advantage to playing a human isn't that the racial maximum on edge is 7. The advantage to playing a human is that your SAPs all go to edge.
Take any build where Metatype isn't A or B. Got one? Switch one thing: if it's a human, make it a meta. If it's a meta, make it a human. Observe what happens. The advantages for metas vs humans is that simple.
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I still disagree with that because you can make identical builds where the human doesn't have any advantages, but that's what my houserule is for.
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the gap between humans and other metatypes at character creation is a huge hole that needs to be patched up at some point.
Humans are at disadvantage, yes. But the gap is not 'huge'.
Compensating humans with 10 extra customization karma will be [more than] sufficient.
Or counting racial positive qualities towards the maximum six positive qualities.
Take any build where Metatype isn't A or B. Got one? Switch one thing: if it's a human, make it a meta. If it's a meta, make it a human. Observe what happens. The advantages for metas vs humans is that simple.
I just made an Edge 5 mundane human with Exceptional Attribute (Agility) and Low Light vision (plus 4 other Positive Qualities as six is the max).
When I switched to Elf I still had 5 Edge (and I was also allowed to keep any combination of mental and physical attributes I could have chosen as human), but I now got both Low Light Vision and Exceptional Attribute for free (worth 6 + 12 karma). Not only that, I am now also allowed to spend the newly earned 20 karma on two additional positive qualities beyond what I was allowed to pick as human....
To be fair, as Human I also got a rank of Exceptional Attribute (Edge) that I might or might not get use for later in my career (post chargen). But then again, as Elf I instead got two 'ranks' of Exceptional Attribute (Charisma) so I am not sure the edge thing should be counted as an advantage in this case (also during encounters your total Edge is capped at 7 no matter if you go Human or Elf, which kinda diminish the value of having an Edge rating higher than 6).
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@Xenon
p.71
Exceptional (Attribute)
Whether it’s being a powerhouse, taking a hit from a troll, holding your synthahol, ducking a fast right, holding that inside turn, selling coal in Newcastle, or making a cat look clumsy, you’re just naturally built to be better.
• Cost: 12 Karma
• Game Effect: Select a Physical or Mental attribute. The character’s attribute maximum (but not current rank) for the chosen attribute increases by 1 to a maximum of 10.
This quality can only be purchased once.
On a personal note i see you writing many absolute statements "this and that is like that because i think it is" have you mathed that out ? i dont think so because lets look at an Elf Shaman and a Human Shaman, the Elf is vastly superior with no extra cost and its so obvious you only need to look how much Karma the Elf has in his 8 Charisma compared to the 6 Charisma of the Human. (expecting them to be MinMAxing which is obvously what were talking about right ? else this is totally mood)
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My personal belief is that the intent is all of the following:
1) metatypes get their racial qualities for no karma
2) these racial qualities do not count against the limit of 6 qualities total
3) since they have a karma cost, anyone who doesn't get them for free may purchase them. Yep, you can have elves with armored troll skin, humans with thermographic vision, and etc. I blame SURGE.
Messing around with these assumptions would of course dis-incentivize metatypes compared to humans. If that's your roll, then have at it! :D
Yeah...I can't think of a sane way to interpret the rules other than this.
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The advantage to playing a human isn't that the racial maximum on edge is 7. The advantage to playing a human is that your Adjustment Points all go to Edge.
What? How is that an advantage?
Consider (say) priority D into Metatype. You get 4 adjustment points. You are choosing between human and elf. The elf gets higher racial maximums on two stats and a free quality. The human gets nothing.
Both characters are free to put all 4 adjustment points into Edge. Stat-wise, they end up at the same place. The elf can choose to put SAPs into charisma or agility instead, but they don't have to.
Why would anyone pick human, faced with this?
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The advantage to playing a human isn't that the racial maximum on edge is 7. The advantage to playing a human is that your Adjustment Points all go to Edge.
What? How is that an advantage?
Consider (say) priority D into Metatype. You get 4 adjustment points. You are choosing between human and elf. The elf gets higher racial maximums on two stats and a free quality. The human gets nothing.
Both characters are free to put all 4 adjustment points into Edge. Stat-wise, they end up at the same place. The elf can choose to put SAPs into charisma or agility instead, but they don't have to.
Why would anyone pick human, faced with this?
If the elf puts all the SAPs into edge, then yes, you're basically playing a funny looking human who got higher racial maximums (which will likely be irrelevant, if you didn't come out of chargen already hitting them) and free low light vision (which avoided a negligible opportunity cost, and the expenditure of about 500¥). But you still don't get to benefit from the roleplaying advantages of BEING human... not unless you take Human-Looking and/or invest in the capability to disguise yourself.
Why did you bother picking elf, if you're just putting your SAPs into Edge?
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Why did you bother picking elf, if you're just putting your SAPs into Edge?
I dunno, maybe you just like pointed ears? Maybe you came from one of the Tirs? Maybe you want to be able to take Impaired Attribute 3x times against Charisma but still be able to stat it to 3/4? Maybe you're gonna play a magic type and want low-light vision without cyberware or external gear? Maybe you're gonna take Agility to 6 out of chargen and will buy the 7th point later? Could be lots of reasons.
This isn't the point. The point of my thought experiment is to demonstrate that Metahumans can choose to put all their adjustment points into Edge, just like a human can. So that is not......the advantage to playing a human
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I'm not trying to pick on you.
Just pointing out that yes there's roleplaying reasons why you'd want to play an elf. My point was that should count for nothing, because there's potentially roleplaying reasons why you'd want to play a human, too. That's a wash.
That leaves pure mechanics: Yes, metahumans get more advantages. But in order to actually capitalize upon those advantages, they have to pay an opportunity cost in not putting those SAPs in Edge. The human "advantage" is they lack the opportunity to have a crappy Edge stat. If the metahuman goes in on edge, then the minor advantages they still have (vision, racial maximums, etc) are just that: MINOR. I don't see that as actually affecting game balance in a meaningful way. Vision aug? Virtually moot if your focus is on VR or Astral Space. Completely moot if you get cybereyes. Almost free in terms of how cheap it is to replicate if you DON'T replace your natural eyes. Higher racial maximum? Who cares. Getting magical or technological attribute augmentation is more accessible than paying 35+ karma anyway. And even if we're talking down-the-road stuff, I don't find a maximum +1 dice to a dice pool down the line when characters are already very powerful anyway as being game breaking. YMMV.
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have you mathed that out ?
Yes I have.
There are very few use cases where human is a better option than other metatypes.
There are almost no use cases at all where human is a better option than all other metatypes.
There are many use cases where choice of metatype have no impact at all.
There are many use cases where metahuman is a better option than human.
There are a few use cases where each metatype (except human) is a better option than all other metatypes.
Hence why I argue that humans are at disadvantage and that they should probably be compensated in some way
I tried to demonstrate this in the very post you quoted. Read it again.
Unlike previous edition, in most cases it actually doesn't really matter which metatype you pick (hermetic magician can for example be troll or human or ork etc, doesn't really matter - same with decker).
But having said that, in other cases the metatype still have a rather big impact (you will often be at disadvantage if you play shaman or face as another race than elf and you will often be at disadvantage if you play strength based unarmed combatants as another race than troll).
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I agree completely with @Xenon on this. Aside from the circumstantial roleplaying effects of being human, there are obvious examples of where picking human (given the choice on the priority table) is putting you at a straight mechanical disadvantage over choosing another metatype.
Examples are Elven Faces, Shamans, and Technancers with a Charisma focus, as well as Agility oriented samurai and adepts.
Dwarven based rigger and decker builds that benefit from higher Willpower, as well as Hermetic Mages (Willpower is used in a lot of Magic tests).
Strength based Ork and Troll builds; these are more of an edge case, especially for Trolls at priority B, though I personally thinketatype A is a trap compared to Attributes A in the currrent rules.
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The advantage to playing a human isn't that the racial maximum on edge is 7. The advantage to playing a human is that your Adjustment Points all go to Edge.
What? How is that an advantage?
Consider (say) priority D into Metatype. You get 4 adjustment points. You are choosing between human and elf. The elf gets higher racial maximums on two stats and a free quality. The human gets nothing.
Both characters are free to put all 4 adjustment points into Edge. Stat-wise, they end up at the same place. The elf can choose to put SAPs into charisma or agility instead, but they don't have to.
Why would anyone pick human, faced with this?
If the elf puts all the SAPs into edge, then yes, you're basically playing a funny looking human who got higher racial maximums (which will likely be irrelevant, if you didn't come out of chargen already hitting them) and free low light vision (which avoided a negligible opportunity cost, and the expenditure of about 500¥). But you still don't get to benefit from the roleplaying advantages of BEING human... not unless you take Human-Looking and/or invest in the capability to disguise yourself.
Why did you bother picking elf, if you're just putting your SAPs into Edge?
Natural low light is actually a pretty big advantage for mages. It’s a cheap quality but would be one of the humans 6. Assuming you play to type whether you used the SAP for just edge or not increased maximums is also pretty big.