[taukarrie]

Having trouble figuring out if a decker can attack a rigger controlled drone without first gaining access to the rigger's PAN. Seems like the drone would appear as an icon and could be attacked via normal cybercombat. The way I'm understanding it is that a drone can, at the very least, be slaved to a commlink and remotely issued commands even if the rigger is not even in AR. When this is happening does the rigger have an active persona with an icon for the drone(s) linked to it? If so can I choose to spike the commlink or the drone itself? And how does this change if the rigger is jumped in? Is there still a separate persona and drone icon in the matrix or is it then a singular entity? In this case would I be spiking the drone using its device rate/2+8 condition monitor until its bricked, delivering dumpshock to the rigger?

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Short answer: yes absolutely you can data spike/tar pit any device, drones included.

Longer answer: In 5e: when a Rigger is Jumped In to a drone, the drone's matrix icon ceases to be and only the Rigger's Persona icon can be targeted.  This technicality was not continued into 6we.
In 6we, PANs work a little differently.  If the Rigger has slaved the drone to his RCC/Commlink, then yes you have to first compromise the PAN before hacking the drone.  If the drone is not being protected, then yes you can go after it directly.

[Xenon]

Even for actions that don't require access (data spike be done with outsider access I think)?

Not sure why I still hadn't gone through the matrix chapter. Honestly thought it would be the first thing I would concentrate on

Not sure if OP is asking about SR5 or SR6. In SR5 if a character is jumped into the drone via the matrix (by using RCC, commlink, cyberdeck or living persona) then the RCC, commlink, cyberdeck or living persona will replace the drone icon. If not then the drone would be attacked directly. If attended then it will use mental attributes of owner. If not the device rating will substitute for mental attributes. If slaved then it will use firewall of master. If not it will use its own firewall. No need to first gain access to the master.

[taukarrie]

Sorry, I'm using 6E.

 "Outsider access is what you have when you first log into a system, and it doesn’t grant you anything other than a look around and interaction with others in the location. (6E pdf pg.179)"

so in reference to this statement from the matrix section of the book are PANs considered a "system"? If thats correct then I would need to perform a brute force at outsider access level to hack into the rigger's commlink or RCC and then on the next turn i can spike the drone. but if the drone is unprotected i can go right for it.  But when would the drone be unprotected? wouldnt it have to at least be slaved to a commlink to even be running? Or are we talking only about drones left unmonitored on auto pilot?

  And that raises another question; theres nothing I can find in 6E about how drones behave when left on autopilot. I know its possible in the gameworld but I dont see any breakdown of intelligence levels for drone AI.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Generally, Pilot programs are smart enough to do what the player wants them to do.

There was a rule of thumb from 5e that probably got left out due to space concerns: when it comes to determining what a drone would do in the event of poorly worded instructions ("shoot the next one to come thru the door!" But the next one thru is another PC...) the GM can roll Pilotx2 against a threshold appropriate to the potential conflict the software must solve.

[Banshee]

Sorry, I'm using 6E.

 "Outsider access is what you have when you first log into a system, and it doesn’t grant you anything other than a look around and interaction with others in the location. (6E pdf pg.179)"

so in reference to this statement from the matrix section of the book are PANs considered a "system"? If thats correct then I would need to perform a brute force at outsider access level to hack into the rigger's commlink or RCC and then on the next turn i can spike the drone. but if the drone is unprotected i can go right for it.  But when would the drone be unprotected? wouldnt it have to at least be slaved to a commlink to even be running? Or are we talking only about drones left unmonitored on auto pilot?

  And that raises another question; theres nothing I can find in 6E about how drones behave when left on autopilot. I know its possible in the gameworld but I dont see any breakdown of intelligence levels for drone AI.

In 6E yes a PAN is a system, but anything that requires Outsider access does not require you to gain access to the system to perform .. so Data Spike can be used against any device that has a matrix presence with no prior action required.

If the drone is operating 100% on auto pilot it would be able to use it's pilot rating for defense, but if it is being controlled via a network (either a commlink or RCC usually) then it is defended by the network.

[PatrolDeer]

In 6E yes a PAN is a system, but anything that requires Outsider access does not require you to gain access to the system to perform .. so Data Spike can be used against any device that has a matrix presence with no prior action required.

If the drone is operating 100% on auto pilot it would be able to use it's pilot rating for defense, but if it is being controlled via a network (either a commlink or RCC usually) then it is defended by the network.

Thank you very much for the clarification Banshee  , I had the same question regarding spoof command. Now it's clear.